Requesting Vivien as guide

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Please read my above questions again. Do you see that you haven’t replied my questions?

I have tried to reply the best I could not really understanding the question.

Can you see that your above comment is just an intellectualization?
Can you see that this kind of reasoning is useless with this investigation?

I think that with your answers last time we spoke clicked something in me... I was going around explaining my thoughts.. you made it clear that thoughts and ideas are not necessary and actually are an obstacle. I see that now.
Am i wrong in thinking that the answers you want from me are even before thougths are formed, before ideas are formed.. just the plain, simple asnwering of a question.,?

At this stage, it is important to realize that looking and thinking is not the same.

I think I got what you are trying to say now.. but it is hard to explain things without using thought..

So what is the difference between experience and thinking?
Experience is direct, thinking is imagining..is not direct is fantasy..

In this work you need to look in your experience and forget all you know, all you think is true, all you heard or read.

this is really hard but I am 100% with you on this one now.. from now on I am just going to reply from my direct experience.

But if something cannot be found in experience, then it isn’t clear that something is just thought of, just imagined? That it’s just made up? Just a fantasy?

yes that is true.. but its so easy to believe it.. and keep th story going..

YOU know thoughts? On what evidential bases do you make the statement that “I know thoughts”?

don't I know thoughts? thoughts appear - that is direct experience - but they don't appear to an entity, they simply appear..

Where is this “I” you are talking about?

nowhere to be found.. experience only is..

Where is the knower of thoughts? Where?

there is no knower of thoughts.. there is thoughts appearing only..

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I have tried to reply the best I could not really understanding the question.

Claudia, it’s important that you understand the question before replying. So it next time you don’t understand it, then please ask me to clarify it for you. Otherwise, our conversation gets off and pointless.

V: Have you actually SEARCHED FOR the owner of the body?
If yes, tell me where did you searched for it?
If no, why not?

So this is the original questions that you didn’t understand.
Please tell me, what is it that you don’t understand?

You say: ‘MY body’ – and I asked whether you REALLY searched for the owner of the body, to the one who says that the body is mine OR you just thought about it.

Since your replies it shows that you are NOT SEARCHING for the self, rather you are just thinking about it intellectually.
So I asked you if you REALLY did a search. And if you didn’t do a search, then why not? Why you didn’t search for the me, the owner of the body?
And if you did a search, then WHERE did you look for the self?

Are my question clear now?
If not, then please tell me what is not clear.
But if you understand the them, then please reply to my original questions.

Am i wrong in thinking that the answers you want from me are even before thougths are formed, before ideas are formed.. just the plain, simple asnwering of a question.,?

No, you are not wrong. This is EXACTLY what I asked you to do all along.
I’m asking you to describe what is there BEFORE any ideas or concepts.

Please tell me, when I ask you to describe the experience, what am I asking you to describe exactly?

I think I got what you are trying to say now.. but it is hard to explain things without using thought..

Yes, you use thoughts to communicate with me what is there BEFORE thoughts/ideas. But choose words that BEST describe the experience, without adding anything extra. Just plain, simple words.

V: YOU know thoughts? On what evidential bases do you make the statement that “I know thoughts”?

C: don't I know thoughts? thoughts appear - that is direct experience - but they don't appear to an entity, they simply appear..

Claudia, we are going in circles.

Why do you ask: “don’t I know thoughts?”?

Do you know thoughts? Are you the knower of thoughts?

Please tell me, what are we looking for, searching for with this inquiry?
What exactly are we searching for?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

V: Have you actually SEARCHED FOR the owner of the body?
If yes, tell me where did you searched for it?
If no, why not?
So this is the original questions that you didn’t understand.
Please tell me, what is it that you don’t understand?

Please can you clarify how can I search for something that is abstract without using thought? the owner of the body is not something that I can point, or even search (physically) and say 'here it is'. I cannot see the owner of the body, I cannot smell it, feel it or hear it.. Please please how can i search for something that does not have them characteristics?

And if you did a search, then WHERE did you look for the self?

I try to search for it physically and I can't. I really cannot. For the reasons already mentioned above.. it does not have physical characteristics.. What other searches am I supposed to be doing please? Can you guide me to search for the self like I am supposed to look for the self?

I’m asking you to describe what is there BEFORE any ideas or concepts.

This was important to hear.. I will remind myself of this very often during my day..

Please tell me, when I ask you to describe the experience, what am I asking you to describe exactly?

I think you want me to describe what I can see, hear, smell, feel with the senses ONLY. Is this correct?

Why do you ask: “don’t I know thoughts?”?

I am sorry Vivien.. thoughts happen only.. ' i know thoughts' is infered.. is more thought. Is this correct? at least it feels right.

Do you know thoughts? Are you the knower of thoughts?

The 'knower of a thought' is a thought itself describing an event.. do you know what I mean here?!

Please tell me, what are we looking for, searching for with this inquiry?
What exactly are we searching for?

Vivien please don't give up on me!!
You are guiding me to see that there is no entity that can control anything.. that everything happens on it's own and NOT to anyone.. the 'me that I think I am does not exist as an entity.. you are trying to guide me to see the Implications of this..


All my love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Vivien please don't give up on me!!

I’m not giving up on you, you don’t have to worry about that. But I have to shake you up, or shake you out of intellectualization and from your beliefs.

Please can you clarify how can I search for something that is abstract without using thought?

Do you remember that we looked at what is the difference between a cup and a ghost?
And do you remember the ‘imagining a spoon’ exercise?

I would like to ask you to go back, and do those exercises again. After redoing them:

What is the point of those exercises?

And what can you see after redoing those exercises?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I would like to ask you to go back, and do those exercises again. After redoing them:

What is the point of those exercises?

to differentiate experience from what is imagined ( thought).

And what can you see after redoing those exercises?

with those exercises it is so clear to see what is real from what is imagined.
Today I have tried to apply that to the 'me'.. to be honest it helped me. The me is never really experienced, it only comes up in thought. Then I inquire what is thought and puff.. nothing there.. there is nothing in thought apart from ideas..

Should I be doing more exercises for this to sink in more or?

Vivien.. I wonder .. if I see that the 'me' is in thought etc.. I wonder why do I carry on then? the more I carry on it's like the more I perpetuate this 'me'.. somehow it feels strange to let go of it and just be with what is..
Experience, is what is only.. the spoon exercise showed me that.. but why can't I let go of the me, of ideas? Maybe I feel that if I let go I will not be anymore.. and I don't like it.. not to exist .. I know this sounds crazy... do you think I just need to let go and trust experience alone??? but then nothing is happening!!!! with experience alone nothing is happening.. there is no story.. Can I please have your comments here?


Love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Should I be doing more exercises for this to sink in more or?

It’s not about exercises, but about looking just as you did with the spoon.

with those exercises it is so clear to see what is real from what is imagined.
Today I have tried to apply that to the 'me'.. to be honest it helped me. The me is never really experienced, it only comes up in thought. Then I inquire what is thought and puff.. nothing there.. there is nothing in thought apart from ideas..

Yes, nice looking.

Here are some simple exercises for you. I would like to ask you to actually do the exercises, and not just think through them. Although they are very simple exercises, but exactly because of the simplicity it’s often overlooked. So please actually do them.

Here is an experiment for you. You will need a chair.

Choose a spot where there is some space both to your left and right.
Put the chair to your right.
Now turn slightly to your left, where there is some empty space.
Not turn back to your right, and investigate the chair thoroughly. Touch it, feel the fabric or the material it’s made of, look at its size, shape, color, texture.

Now turn back to your left to the empty space and try to imagine that there is the same chair you observed on your right. If it helps close your eyes. Imagine its fabric, size, color, shape, texture. Make it as vivid as you can. So you have two chairs, one on your right, and an imagined copy of it on your left.

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?
Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?
Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?
Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?
Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?

Vivien.. I wonder .. if I see that the 'me' is in thought etc.. I wonder why do I carry on then?

Because you still believe that there is a self/me somewhere outside of thoughts. So you have to search for it.

Maybe I feel that if I let go I will not be anymore.. and I don't like it.. not to exist .. I know this sounds crazy... do you think I just need to let go and trust experience alone??? but then nothing is happening!!!! with experience alone nothing is happening.. there is no story.. Can I please have your comments here?

You are trying to figure this out intellectually. What you have to let go off is these ideas of letting go.

but why can't I let go of the me, of ideas?

But is there a ‘I’ that can let go of the idea of ‘I’?

Where is the YOU that could let go of the idea of you? Where? Show it to me.

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Now open your eyes, and sit on that imagined chair of your left. Literally sit on it.
Can you do that? Why not?

I cannot do that. It does not matter how intense or precise my thought about the chair was it did not make the chair real. When I tried to sit, I could not.. Thouhht right away appeared ' of corse the chair is not there and you know it', but, it is great to see the diference between what is real and what is thought. Especially because all my issues and obstacles have been with thoughts.. as if they have power.. they don't.

Now turn to your right, and sit on the chair.
Can you do that? Why?

Yes I can. The chair is there physically. I don't have to think about it at all. It's there.

While sitting on the chair, investigate these:
Can the thought ‘sweet’ be tasted?

no.

Can the thought ‘warm’ be felt?

no

Can the thought ‘fragrant scent’ be smelled?

no

Can the thought ‘beautiful sunset’ be seen?

no

Can the thought of ‘loud noise’ be heard?

no

Can the thought of drinking water make your thirst away?

not at all..

Can the thought of ‘walking on a beach’ make your feet wet and sandy?
WHY not?

No. Because it is only a thought appearing.. I can't see the sea, or feel the sand..

So what is the difference between real and imagined?

real is what I can see, smell, taste, hear, and feel in the moment.. Imagined is not real at all because I cannot pysically see it, taste it, hear it and feel it.. Anything that is real is to immediate and can be evidenced by the senses.. Imagined is only evidenced by thought.

What is the difference between a chair and the THOUGHT OF a chair?

The chair is seen and felt.. the thought of a chair is imagined. The thought ' I am observing the chair' IS IT ALSO IMAGINED???? Am I not observing the chair? or should I say, the ACT of observing the chair is happening.. ONLY! but there is no me outside of experience doing it.. there is only the observing happening... !
can you please comment?!

But is there a ‘I’ that can let go of the idea of ‘I’?

Omg... No.. if there is no I, there is nothing to be let go of.. there is only what is happening ALONE.

Where is the YOU that could let go of the idea of you? Where? Show it to me.

there is just experience happening.. no me.. apart from thought. I only have to examine thought and see thought for what it is.. a thought not believed have no power.. but at the moment I value the thoughts so much and I believe them.
I am going to practise over and over the exercises you have given me and apply to normal day activities or anytime thoughts start creating this persona and the whole story going on I will inquire right way and evaluate what is real from what is imagined..

All my love,
Claudia

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I received a message that I have a post from you but I cannot see it.

Is this a bug?

Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Yes, it must be a bug, since I posted a new reply for you.

But here it is again:

it is great to see the diference between what is real and what is thought. Especially because all my issues and obstacles have been with thoughts.. as if they have power.. they don't.

It’s good that you are starting to see the difference between experience and thoughts. You did a nice looking.

Yes I can. The chair is there physically. I don't have to think about it at all. It's there.

Yes, this is an important discovery. You don’t have to think (imagine) the chair, since it’s ALREADY there. There is no doubt about it.
real is what I can see, smell, taste, hear, and feel in the moment.. Imagined is not real at all because I cannot pysically see it, taste it, hear it and feel it.. Anything that is real is to immediate and can be evidenced by the senses.. Imagined is only evidenced by thought.
Yes!

The chair is seen and felt.. the thought of a chair is imagined. The thought ' I am observing the chair' IS IT ALSO IMAGINED???? Am I not observing the chair? or should I say, the ACT of observing the chair is happening.. ONLY! but there is no me outside of experience doing it.. there is only the observing happening... !
can you please comment?!

The presence of the chair is known, right? It’s observed, right?

Please take a chair again. Put it in front of you. Touch it, feel it, look at it, smell it :) Spend a few minutes to experience it with the senses.

And now, make 180-degree turn with your attention.
Turn to the ‘I’ that is observing the chair.

Try (literally) grasping the I (the observer of the chair) with your hand. Can you grasp it?

This sounds simplistic, but in spite of its simplicity do this many times.

Every time when in your daily life it feels like that “I am doing this or that” or “I am feeling tired, bored, angry, etc”, turn the attention to the ‘I’ and literally try to grasp it with your hands.

Please let me know it goes.

Vivien

[Selfing]

Try (literally) grasping the I (the observer of the chair) with your hand. Can you grasper it?
No I cannot grasp it.. i am so tired of grasping thought and more thought..

This sounds simplistic, but in spite of its simplicity do this many times.

Every time when in your daily life it feels like that “I am doing this or that” or “I am feeling tired, bored, angry, etc”, turn the attention to the ‘I’ and literally try to grasp it with your hands.

Please let me know it goes.

I cannot do it.. can’t touch or grab a thought..


Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

So why can’t you grab your-self?

How do you see the self now?
What is the I, here and now?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I haven’t had much time lately to responde.

I will get back to you soon.

Thank you

Claudia

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien

So why can’t you grab your-self?

I can't grab myself because I can't grab a thought. The self manifests as a thought. A thought is known only. - I cannot physically grab it, taste it, smell it or feel it. I can only know it.. it manifests and its known.

How do you see the self now?

same as before. I don't really know how to see it. There is nothing to physically see. But I could tell that this self appears as a form of thought. Narrating the moment itself, and describing the actions of this body..
I have tried to go on about my day just focusing on direct experience to try and see the difference and distinguish the two - experience from thought. Thoughts always add story to the experience. Experience is very raw and it does not mean anything on its own. Thought gives it meaning - It is very very hard for me to just see thought as thought. I believe the thought - I cannot deny this. I believe my thoughts. I think that when they speak about this 'me' that is who I am.

What is the I, here and now?

if I focus on direct experience - I can only describe colours, feelings, sounds etc The 'I' needs to appear in the form of a thought to be known. What does it thought now says at this very moment:

'I am answering to Vivien' - ' after I am done, I will go to bed' - This is the 'i' here and now if you ask me.

I think from my list of expectations that you point out to me that this is not going to stop - thoughts appering speaking about an I. I get that. But at the moment I cannot tell the difference between believing the thought or not.

Am I not answering to Vivien? - Yes
won't I go to bed after? - Yes

How can I deny this? and say this is not real, or not happening, or there is no 'I' when this is exactly what is going to happen. Can you please clarify the difference? I have tried, and tried and tried to tell the difference during this week and I can't do it, I don't know where I am going wrong, or how can I unsee this..

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I believe the thought - I cannot deny this. I believe my thoughts. I think that when they speak about this 'me' that is who I am.

And this is the ‘me’ we are looking for.
We are looking for the ‘me’ who is having thoughts.
The ‘me’ who believes in thoughts.

Now, find this ‘me’ who is having thoughts. Where is it?
Where is the ‘I’ that is believing in thoughts?
Is it inside the head?
Behind the eyes? Where?

Am I not answering to Vivien? - Yes
won't I go to bed after? – Yes

The ‘I’ goes to bed, or the body goes to bed?
The ‘I’ answers, or the hands typing the answers?

But at the moment I cannot tell the difference between believing the thought or not.

What is believing a thought?

Point with your finger (literally) to the believer.
Where do you point at?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Now, find this ‘me’ who is having thoughts. Where is it?

There is isn’t an I found that has thoughts. I can only point to thoughts appearing and being known. I don’t know by what. They appear and are known.

Where is the ‘I’ that is believing in Thoughts?

I can only point to thoughts appearing but no I having thoughts

Is it inside the head?

I don’t have a location where thoughts appear.

Is it behind the eyes? Where?

I cannot point to a location.

[

color=#0040FF]The ‘I’ goes to bed, or the body goes to bed?

The body goes.

The ‘I’ answers, or the hands typing the answers?[/color]

The hands type the answers. Thoughts try to describe what is happening.

[

color=#0040FF]What is believing a thought?[/color]

I don’t know how to answer this question. Believing the thought happens and the story of me carries on..

Point with your finger (literally) to the believer.

Where do you point at?[/color]
I point at my head. Even tho that if I analyse the head I can only find sensations.

Thank you
Claudia