How does one still live without self?

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:20 pm

Does that apply to your sensations? 
No, it doesn't. The sensations of fear and excitement feel markedly different in my body. Fear is very noticeably contracting while excitement feels energizing and contracting. So yes, while there is still a flavor of contracting in both, excitement feels different.
Is that about right?
 

Yes? It's just a sensation of emptiness, hollowness (there's nothing there) and then the thought content comes in to define the meaning of that and you're right - it can be interpreted as either beautiful, exquisite space or complete loss and sorrow - the thought that comes along with this is: "There is nothing (I feel expansion), therefore I have nothing (I feel contraction)".

Slowing things down and doing the exercise above really helped me SEE the difference and how things separate.

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Anastacia42
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:28 am

Yes, excellent, you're doing great LOOKING, not thinking.

Okay, this is a favorite:

Sports Exercise

Please note that you will have to check the link when using this exercise, to make sure it is still viable, as sometimes they are removed from Youtube.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

What did you find when doing this exercise?

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Enjoy!
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:20 pm

What did you find when doing this exercise?
The game is pretty boring without the commentary :-).
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
No, the play continues regardless of what the commentators are saying.
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?  
No, it really isn't. I guess in some ways it makes things more interesting/harder/confusing but in all actuality, it isn't necessary or real. My actions continue much like the play on the field does - with or without my thoughts saying anything at all.

I guess the harder thing for me to accept is that with the commentary - I felt like I understood more. If you just watch a bunch of people running around chasing something, it kinda doesn't make sense? The commentators do the analysis/interpreting so you have a better understanding of what to make of all the people running around. Like in the instance of the yellow flag, with the sound off, I had no idea what happened or why there was a flag. I don't need to understand, I experience the play without that knowledge/understanding, but it's kinda nice to have?

I follow that thought content isn't necessary for me to SEE the game. I see it regardless of the commentary, but the commentary/thought content does add to life, doesn't it?

This exercise helped bring awareness to just how much I live in my head. I feel tense, electric/zappy, bubbly when confronted with the idea that all the thought contents really aren't necessary. I know that's a story - sit with the sensation of tension, feel them in my body, it's just HARD.

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Anastacia42
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:12 am

Hi Catherine,
The game is pretty boring without the commentary :-).
I find it peaceful. But it's up to you to discover how it is for you.
guess the harder thing for me to accept is that with the commentary - I felt like I understood more. If you just watch a bunch of people running around chasing something, it kinda doesn't make sense?
The commentary doesn't ever really go away completely. It will still be there. You'll just feel peaceful in its presence more often - even when you don't like it.

I never understood why people wanted to chase a little ball across a field, anyway.

Also, if you understood the game of soccer, it would probably be perfectly understandable without the commentary. You could have done the same thing with a gynnast or some dance or art you enjoy.

Let's see if this is boring...

For a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment: Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour. Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them. And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.


How does it feel to notice this?

Jeff Foster defined meditation as

Pure fascination with this moment, exactly as it is. Not adding anything. Not taking anything away. No goal. No seeking. No meditator.”

That isn't boring.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:07 pm

You'll just feel peaceful in its presence more often - even when you don't like it. 
This feels really open and spacious in my body when I read it. Like the tension dissolves. Thank you for sharing.
How does it feel to notice this?
No, it's not boring at all, it's absolutely breathtakingly beautiful. Peaceful. Serene. Expansive and open which feels so different from the tension and contraction I've felt before.

You are absolutely right - it is effortless. And it's weird in that there's no sense of emptiness either. I feel alive - full of brightness, lightness, warmth. The sensation is so dramatically different than anything I've felt before with the previous exercises. I feel nourished - like when you drink a warm bowl of soup when you're sick and you can just feel your body being cared for and replenished. It's gooey, warm, all-encompassing.

I'm crying tears of joy. Ha. Dare I say that this feels liberating? 

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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:41 pm

Welcome to reality, Catherine!
This feels really open and spacious in my body when I read it. Like the tension dissolves. Thank you for sharing.
How does it feel to notice this?
No, it's not boring at all, it's absolutely breathtakingly beautiful. Peaceful. Serene. Expansive and open which feels so different from the tension and contraction I've felt before.

You are absolutely right - it is effortless. And it's weird in that there's no sense of emptiness either. I feel alive - full of brightness, lightness, warmth. The sensation is so dramatically different than anything I've felt before with the previous exercises. I feel nourished - like when you drink a warm bowl of soup when you're sick and you can just feel your body being cared for and replenished. It's gooey, warm, all-encompassing.

I'm crying tears of joy. Ha. Dare I say that this feels liberating?
Absolutely beautiful. Yes.

Can you find any "separate self" anywhere? Has there ever been? What do you see now?

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:10 am

There's nothing but presence and awareness of what is, perfectly surrounded in all that ever was. The ebb, the flow, there's no where to go but sinking into the rhythm.  

I wrote this poem because poetry is what I use to describe something emotional that I can't:

Into the darkness she came and went
Lost only her soul which heaven sent
Betrayed by herself 
She forged her own way
Never to be led astray
Forgotten only by those she knew
It wasn't until she paid her due
That she was allowed to see
What lies ahead is no mystery
From whence she came
The foreign land, it all looked the same.
Desserts and fauna it all contains
The shrouds of darkness and lures of shame
Cast aside the fears of betrayal
Open hearts long for the medieval
The simple life of a self long ago,
Where no self reigned and followers come and go.

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:19 am

Can you find any "separate self" anywhere? Has there ever been? What do you see now?
To answer your questions more specifically, no, I can't find a separate self any where. And no, there hasn't ever been one. I totally get your quip now = yep, definitely been living all long without a separate self.

I see everything as it is, raw and intense. I'm also currently ill so it's heightening the sense of internal yuck - the sensations of being sick with real awareness are not fun. But there's unity in it - it's not my body that's sick, or my mind that's doing this and that, it's just sick/ill/sensations. And it's all happening and I'm present and engaged.

It's funny how the disclaimer makes sens now too. Nothing has changed, yet everything about how I relate to what's before me has. There's a gentleness, a fondness, a peace though that's new. A settling of sorts that has neutral connotation. A deepening, a rooting, it's hard to describe.

Thank you for this journey, it's been an interesting one for sure!

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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:36 am

That's great. Yes, this is what we're talking about. THIS is "how one still lives without a separate self. "

The intensity of it will come & go.

The poem is lovely. And doesn't it feel funny to even write "she?" :)

We have some final questions we use.

I haven't asked you anything much about decision, intention, free will, choice and control, yet. I can give you a couple of exercises to check that with if those aren't clear to you.

Here are the final questions, from which we can clarify anything that's still not clear:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Be sure to answer all parts of #5.

Welcome home! (which was never left)
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:16 pm

I haven't asked you anything much about decision, intention, free will, choice and control, yet. I can give you a couple of exercises to check that with if those aren't clear to you.
  

Yes, please, let's do that.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, and there never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Gosh, this is tough. The best way I can articulate is the idea of wearing a mask. The mask covers and separates the person underneath it but the person never went away. It's taking off the mask, realizing that there's always been a mask, this separation but the person (it's not even a "person") under the mask has always been there. Furthermore, it's the awareness that the masks may still be worn but they are not real. They are an illusion.
I know that using thought content isn't desirable but the sensations are so hard to describe. There's a sense of "oh, I don't need to wear this mask anymore" (I guess enlightenment though that word is so overused). There's relaxation, openness without emptiness. Things feel whole, connected, complete. Warm, gooey, soft and fluid. And there's the feeling of parts still being there but there's now no separateness from all of them - like they are suspended in the soup. They are all there, they are all noticed and enjoyed, and I'm the one sipping and enjoying the taste of all the soup together.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels liberating to see this. It feels solid, grounded, and in a way complete? To truly not "need" anything - the sense of yearning, desire is there, and I feel it but it's not owning me in a way it once did. And it's very much as described in previous experiences - I have the symphony now. I'm experiencing and aware of multiple senses at once and none are more dominant than the others. It's the whole ACIM - give equal weight to all the things and I struggled with that so much and now I get it.

In terms of what's different, I'm able to have more engaged dialogues (catching myself get defensive, seeing myself pull away from a conversation, there's awareness now where there wasn't before), better able to communicate my needs (I'm sick and usually just dismiss yucky body sensations and push on only to end up sicker, and I didn't last night. I tuned in and felt really sick, went to bed early, drank lots of tea and today I'm feeling better). 

So life is still happening - I haven't won a million dollars, all my challenges and issues still remain, nothing has changed. Yet all of it in a way is okay. This existence for me has been better defined = there is beauty in watching everything unfold, serving as the one that notices, the one that observes; the soup drinker.

When you realize that is all that's needed, all that's ever been asked is for you to SEE it all unfold, there is real peace in that.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I think all the exercises really worked well together. The symphony one with the different senses and the last one really helped me see - orchestrating. It's been a real belief of mine that that's my job - to be the maestro, to command and control and that last bit, in concert with the other exercises, really helped me SEE that that role (mask) I've given myself isn't real. Everything happens regardless of whether I'm orchestrating or not. And that under that belief was something much more profound - that while I'm not directly involved in controlling the symphony of life, I'm able to truly take in all that there is - the moody, broody notes, the high screams of a soprano. It's all there. And while it all might not be enjoyable, it's not my job or role in life to make it stop. It's to accept that things must just be noticed.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This is where things kinda fall apart for me.

Decision - I think there's decision in accepting a separateness, the decision to done a mask and act/accept it as real. A decision not to notice or be aware. In terms of life decisions, tough decisions, on what to do, how to proceed, it feels like you just have to make one and watch what happens which is really tough for me to accept. 

Intention - I really don't know. I want to believe that intentions can help guide me but really, there's no guide unless you truly believe that the mind itself from an energy standpoint is capable of attracting certain energies. My understanding is that you set an intention, visualize it being met, and it comes to you. But perhaps it would have come to you even without an intention? I think it's accepting that intentions aren't real, but they can't hurt if you recognize their falseness? 

Also, who is setting the intention? There isn't anyone here. Ha. I guess that's the issue with decisions, who's deciding? The no self experiences.

Free will - free will also implies there's a self who can choose differently. There is no choice in the way choice is to decide between.

Choice/control - It seems like the only choice is to choose to continue to focus on what's real or to succumb again to the tyranny of the masks, the false facades.

6) Anything to add  

How do you strength the experience of no self? It seem rather easy to fall back into doning a mask. I guess you go back to those exercises where you focus on actual experience. 

I think I'm really hung up on analyzing sensations for content - like the idea of a "gut" instinct or instincts in general. I guess those are sensations without thought content - you act in emergencies, the body generally takes over. 
How to do you handle things like evaluating jobs? Finding a career path? Family life? Values? Buying a house? Is it really just something you do and see what happens? 

There seems to be something mixed in this place, perhaps another mask. Like I asked someone else how at the end of this, there's no compulsion for good anymore. And their basic response was, if you wanted to do bad things you would have already done them. 

So there is this overwhelming sensation of warmth now and I guess the though content is "how could this feeling ever be used for something other than good". So that's not real, the sensation is but then it's like, okay, then how does this sensation impact me on a daily basis? I just live my life in a way that keeps the sensation?

I'm trying to understand how practically this effects my life and I guess the answer is that it doesn't. There's no better decision, so you just make one and move on. I guess that's still really hard for me to accept.

Please help Stacy, I feel lost again.

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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:32 pm

Hi Katherine,

You can just relax. Everything is fine- you can see this now.

Remember, there has been no "you" making those decisions all along. Basically, the way I think of it is that I relax and get clear and see what answers and decisions and actions arise on their own.

Let's do some of those exercises. Start with this one.


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Have fun!
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:56 am

PS. Sorry for misspelling your name. I was using talk to text him did not notice the error.
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:35 am

How is the movement controlled?
It's not - even saying it's controlled by the brain is a thought content because I'm not watching my brain fire energy signals and watching them travel down my spinal cord to my hand.

Does a thought control it?

Nope.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Nope. Except potential the muscles, nerves, ligaments, all that jazz but even then I'm not directly experiencing those.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

"I" made no decision. My hand moved so something happened right, but there is no "me" deciding to do it. In the same way you can get involuntary muscle spasms - I didn't want those to happen by the muscle fires anyway.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

That is a fun question - that question really truly had no thought at all. Like "didn't even consider it" type of response. Not an inkling at all that there was someone deciding.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No choices, but the hand moved. I guess it's the choice that's the focus - I could chose not to participate in the exercise? But in having my hand move there was nothing deciding. I guess it's the same thing with the involuntary muscle spasms, I can't make my hand not move, not cramp. So thinking "I" make it move to begin with is false, because "I" really can't control it.

The intricacies of this are hard.

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iknownothing
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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby iknownothing » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:35 am

Sorry, I hit post before I could do the quotes!

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Re: How does one still live without self?

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:35 am

Hi Catherine,

Thanks. Yes, no controller, decider, no intention, nothing.
No choices, but the hand moved. I guess it's the choice that's the focus - I could chose not to participate in the exercise? But in having my hand move there was nothing deciding. I guess it's the same thing with the involuntary muscle spasms, I can't make my hand not move, not cramp. So thinking "I" make it move to begin with is false, because "I" really can't control it.
Even if you did not participate in the exercise (I had someone try that once.) Where is there anyone making some choice about that? How does that happen?

Yes, if there IS no "I," the whole thing falls apart, doesn't it?
The intricacies of this are hard.
Is it hard? Or just unfamiliar? Something to get used to? Not believing content of thought.

Here is another one:

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the
rocks, the depressions in the ground etc?

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

I think you'll like that one. What is found?


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


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