The Gate

Hi Vivien,

So I wanted to start responding to your questions and two busy days at work simply caused too much turmoil in thoughts and I can't focus well enough to look properly and respond from AE. Unfortunately I don't expect it to be any better tomorrow, but I will set aside enough time on Saturday to meditate and then to properly respond to your questions.

Sorry for the delay.

Best wishes,
Daniel

Hi Dan,

No worries. Thank you for letting me know.
I'm looking forward to your replies.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

Hi Vivien,

And then what if thoughts still assume that there is an ‘I’?
Is there any problem with that?
And whose problem is that?

I honestly am not sure how to answer. One answer that comes is that when thoughts assume there is an 'I' then that causes suffering in various ways in daily life. It is clearly more skillful and desirable to live from the point of view that there is no self and to live from that point of view is to have thoughts accept it as truth.
Then when I look at a particular thought that assumes there is an I, it's also clear that it's just a thought and only viewing it as a 'problem' creates a tension. But this happens only when it is recognized as such, but most thoughts are left unexamined.

Can you see this?

Yes, what you describe here makes complete sense. Hopefully the investigation becomes strong enough a habit.

What does it mean that on a higher level choice just happen?
Are there higher and lower levels of experience?
Is there any other level where choice doesn’t just happen?
Are there any levels at all?

When we talk we use concepts. To even say that there is a choice is not an AE, choice is a thought. So when we talk about choice that's already a higher level concept. So my observation 'choice just happens' wouldn't make sense as AE because there is no choice actually. That's why I denoted it as 'on a higher level'. Hope it makes sense. The levels I meant are just levels of thought abstraction on top of AE.

Is it possible that “I am not in control” ‘feels more natural’ than “there is no I to be in control” because the I as the doer or controller is still believed?

Yes, that is certainly possible and that's why I left the sentence there. Now the important thing is whether it's actually believed and I honestly have to say that I'm not sure. Since thoughts still assume existing 'I', how can I be sure that they are not believed when there is not even anyone separate from those thoughts to believe or not believe in them. The believing is part of those thoughts.
Do you have a koan or a riddle that could test whether the believe in 'I' is gone or just hiding more subtly? :D

Are you sure that there is nothing that the word ‘I’ could point to?

'I' can still be used in thoughts and language. It can point to this body, thoughts, emotions etc. but the important part seems to be that there is no separate inherent 'me' controlling or owning or being any of those. So it can point to various things but none of them are 'me' as some entity.

Are you sure that there is no self whatsoever?

There is noone to be sure. This process is about changing patterns of thoughts so that they don't believe in the separate 'I' or that thoughts see through it more often.
What does it then mean to be sure when thoughts still come that add the narrative of 'I'? When focused on AE it's quite clear that there is no me separate from experience.

Whenever you LOOK, can you see it clearly again and again that there is no self whatsoever?

When I look in direct experience then no I can be found. It still is not a habit to look repeatedly again and again and the certainty is somehow still missing.

Thought will continue to appear saying "but it stills feels like there is a me"....so look and see if thought is correct...look and see if you can find this "I" that thought keeps pointing to. Can you?

I know that it doesn't point to anything, but at the same time the sense of agency is strong now, the thought that I'm writing this answer. The looking can deconstruct this sense and it can be seen that there is no 'I' doing anything but it's a slow process.

And also thought will continue to appear saying "but it stills feels like there is a me"....but thoughts don’t know anything. They are talking about all sorts of things without knowing what they are talking about. Can you see this?

Yes, when looked properly at, it's clear that the sense of 'me' is empty and just an illusion.

Looking forward to your answer and thank you for your patience,
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Then when I look at a particular thought that assumes there is an I, it's also clear that it's just a thought and only viewing it as a 'problem' creates a tension. But this happens only when it is recognized as such, but most thoughts are left unexamined.

So whenever a seeming problem arise, then stop, and actually look for the one who/what is supposedly having a problem. Look, if there is really a you having a problem and thus suffering from it. When it’s seen that there is no you having a problem, then look for the suffering directly. See if there is an actual suffering going on. If suffering as such can actually be experienced.

So, what is the AE of suffering?

Yes, what you describe here makes complete sense. Hopefully the investigation becomes strong enough a habit.

Yes, but it’s important to mention here the seeing through the self doesn’t mean that there is clarity 24/7 and that the self will be never taken as reality any more. Not at all.

Seeing through the self means that EVERY TIME when LOOKING happens it is clearly seen that there is nothing behind the word ‘me’ or self.

When we talk we use concepts. To even say that there is a choice is not an AE, choice is a thought. So when we talk about choice that's already a higher level concept. So my observation 'choice just happens' wouldn't make sense as AE because there is no choice actually. That's why I denoted it as 'on a higher level'. Hope it makes sense. The levels I meant are just levels of thought abstraction on top of AE.

Thank you for explaining it.

Yes, that is certainly possible and that's why I left the sentence there. Now the important thing is whether it's actually believed and I honestly have to say that I'm not sure. Since thoughts still assume existing 'I', how can I be sure that they are not believed when there is not even anyone separate from those thoughts to believe or not believe in them. The believing is part of those thoughts.

After the self has been seen through, the illusion still can be taken as a reality (probably more often than one would expect), and the self could seem to be very real. But when it looked at closely, it’s clear that there is nothing there.

Falling for the illusion (meaning believing it) can happen much more often than one might expect. It can last for even hours several times during the day. And why? It’s because every time an emotion is triggered (by some circumstances or because of certain thoughts coming up), the self is activated. So whenever there is frustration, wanting or not wanting something, expecting something, having anger, resentment, feeling hurt, disliking something / somebody, etc. the self is there immediately. Since all these emotions are on behalf of the self. And after seeing no-self, all these conditioned issues need to be worked through, otherwise whenever these emotions arise the self comes with them. Humans are very often triggered (many-many times a day) and those triggered reactions can last from minutes to hours, meaning that the self is there and believed to be real for minutes or hours while those triggered reactions are functioning.

Taking the self as real, is also a conditioned habit of thinking. It’s a habit of the ‘mind’. It’s the result of a life-long conditioning. But upon each looking it gets a little bit weaker and weaker. So further looking is the key.

'I' can still be used in thoughts and language. It can point to this body, thoughts, emotions etc. but the important part seems to be that there is no separate inherent 'me' controlling or owning or being any of those. So it can point to various things but none of them are 'me' as some entity.

Exactly. This is what we mean seeing through the self. But just because upon looking it can be seen that there is nothing behind the word ‘me’, it doesn’t mean that the sense of self will stop appearing or it will never be taken as real. However, upon each looking it can be seen again and again and again, that there is nothing there.

V: Are you sure that there is no self whatsoever?

D: There is noone to be sure. This process is about changing patterns of thoughts so that they don't believe in the separate 'I' or that thoughts see through it more often.
What does it then mean to be sure when thoughts still come that add the narrative of 'I'? When focused on AE it's quite clear that there is no me separate from experience.

But just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean it will stop appearing. It won’t. And the thought of “I am” and “I do” definitely won’t stop appearing at all, however upon each looking it can be seen that there is nothing there. But when there is no looking, the illusion still goes on.

Here is a youtube video about a visual illusion of 8 balls moving in a straight line, creating an illusion as if the balls were rotating in a circle. Let’s say that the illusion of the rotating circle is the self. Each ball represents the building blocks of the self (like thought label ‘I’, sensations, visual thoughts, etc). When looking happens, meaning that you follow only one ball, then it can be seen that these balls are not moving in a circle but in a straight line. But when not looking, the illusion of the circle (self) can show up again. However, upon each looking (focusing on once ball) it can be seen that there is no self (moving circle) there at all.

So the only thing that changes is that it can be seen that those balls are actually not rotating in a circle, the circle is just an illusion. But the illusion of the rotating circle still can arise, just as the illusion of the self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t7kwy3rN4k

When I look in direct experience then no I can be found. It still is not a habit to look repeatedly again and again and the certainty is somehow still missing.

What is missing? Seeing through the self 24/7? Seeing through the self is just the beginning not the end. It’s just the first step. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key. LU only guides to the realisation of ‘no separate self’.

I know that it doesn't point to anything, but at the same time the sense of agency is strong now, the thought that I'm writing this answer. The looking can deconstruct this sense and it can be seen that there is no 'I' doing anything but it's a slow process.

And what if there is a sense of self? The sense of self doesn’t have to go away. And expecting that it will just going to bring disappointment. It’s enough to know that there is nothing behind that ‘sense’. The sense of self is nothing else than a sensation.

Here is an exercise, you can do anywhere at any time. It helps to see again and again that the sense of self is nothing else then just a sensation. You can make this practice into a habit.

First localize where this sense of me appears inside the body.
Your job is to stalk and trap this Dan in a net of attention.

Let's go straight for the most obvious example of me inside.
Where does Dan/me feel most prevalent?

The intensity of the ‘sense of self’ can vary, and there are times when the ‘me’ really shows up let’s say behind the eyes, inside the head.
When it does, fix in with precision to that place the ‘me’ occupies.
Hold it for a while in this net of attention.
Look and see, is this me-behind-the-eyes-in-the-head anything but sensation?

Look precisely where the ‘me’ feels to be, the sensation behind the eyes, maybe not right at the back of the skull, but closer in? Somewhere around the centre, but towards the eyes perhaps? Feel into that space, the sensations there, and just spend a couple of minutes feeling those sensations as sensations. Nothing more, nothing less. Just what they are - sensations.

Treat thoughts as just voices-off. Ignore them. Focus on the sensations, the one's that feel most me-like.

See them as sensations - only. Like a sensation in the foot, or stomach, or hand, or head. Sensations. Radically ordinary. Bereft of meaning.

So for the next few days, I would like to ask you to focus your attention to this sensation as often as you can during the day (hundreds of times).

Just keep the attention on the sensation, and just make a repeated recognition that this sensation is just a sensation. Nothing more.

So just FEEL the sensation as sensation.
The task is to see what is there for what it is.
To give things their true name.
A sensation in the head is a sensation.

And see this again and again and again and again….. hundreds of times. But we are not doing this for making the sense of self go away, we are doing this only to see that this sense of self is nothing else than a sensation.

Please let me know how it goes.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

So, what is the AE of suffering?

Suffering is a thought 'I want something other than what is', the 'desire' thought. But only thoughts can label experience as good/bad, pleasure/suffering etc. The experience itself has no inherent characteristic to it and only when the labelling thought is believed is when suffering becomes 'real' but in AE there is no actual suffering.

Seeing through the self means that EVERY TIME when LOOKING happens it is clearly seen that there is nothing behind the word ‘me’ or self.

This should be stickied somewhere.

Here is an exercise, you can do anywhere at any time. Where does Dan/me feel most prevalent? Look and see, is this me-behind-the-eyes-in-the-head anything but sensation?

I may not be super accurate with the sensations as I haven't had training in something like vipassanna but when the sensations are looked at directly the belief in them as 'me' does lift and it helps break the patterns of 'being me'.

So for the next few days, I would like to ask you to focus your attention to this sensation as often as you can during the day (hundreds of times).
Just keep the attention on the sensation, and just make a repeated recognition that this sensation is just a sensation. Nothing more.

I will be on this for the next days and will let you know how it goes.

Do you have some specific exercise that would help break the belief that I'm attention or I'm controlling attention? It's a belief that had been showing up recently and although it can be seen that the attention just moves and happens and even attention is a concept that there is actually only the experience within 'attention', I wonder if there is maybe some specific exercise.

Thank you for your input on expectations and the whole process, it helps to put things in the right perspective.

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

I may not be super accurate with the sensations as I haven't had training in something like vipassanna but when the sensations are looked at directly the belief in them as 'me' does lift and it helps break the patterns of 'being me'.

Great! So please continue to do this. Whenever there is a sense of me, just FEEL this sensation as a plain sensation.

Do you have some specific exercise that would help break the belief that I'm attention or I'm controlling attention? It's a belief that had been showing up recently and although it can be seen that the attention just moves and happens and even attention is a concept that there is actually only the experience within 'attention', I wonder if there is maybe some specific exercise.

The belief that I am attention is the same belief that I am awareness! Can you see this?

That there is something separate from experience that is attending or aware-ing everything else?

the belief that I'm attention or I'm controlling attention?

And even if there were a separate awareness/attention from experience, what would make this awareness into a ME/I?

For that to happen, there not only has to be a separate awareness/attention but also there has to be a separate ME/I which could make the claim that “I am attention/awareness’. Can you see this?

or I'm controlling attention?

It seems that the belief in control is still lurking there.

Also that there is a thing called attention/awareness + a ME/I, an entity that is controlling attention/awareness.

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

And now try to find THE attention itself. Not just the idea of it, but the ACTUAL attention.
Where is it exactly? What is it like?

Is there really an attention that is jumping from one object to another, from a thought to a sensation, then to a sound, etc?

Are there REALLY two things there, an attention + the attended object (thought/sensation/sound)?
Or rather there is ONLY thought, then there is ONLY sensation, then there is ONLY sound?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

I will answer tomorrow. Still looking throughout the day at the sensations that feel like 'me'.

Best regards,
Daniel

Hi Dan,

All right.

Have nice day,
Vivien

Hi Vivien,

The belief that I am attention is the same belief that I am awareness! Can you see this?

Yes, that's true in my experience.

That there is something separate from experience that is attending or aware-ing everything else?

Yes, it creates the duality of 'me' watching the experience but other than a thought suggesting that, there is no truth to it.

And even if there were a separate awareness/attention from experience, what would make this awareness into a ME/I?

Only a thought can claim it. There can only be thoughts of ownership that I am this or that but they are ultimately empty, they don't know what they talk about as you like to say.

For that to happen, there not only has to be a separate awareness/attention but also there has to be a separate ME/I which could make the claim that “I am attention/awareness’. Can you see this?

Yes, and then we would be going in circles getting back to the original idea that 'I am thoughts' which obviously is not true.

Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

There is noone in control of attention. It's when a thought appears 'I'm now going to watch sensations' that there is an idea 'I'm controlling attention' but both are actually thoughts and even the connection of thought causing movement of attention is just a thought, an interpretation.

Is there something controlling it?

No, nothing at all

What moves attention?

Attention moves, nothing is moving or controlling it.

Is thought in control of attention?

Thoughts (about moving attention) can be more or less in sync with the actual movement of attention (experience attended) but in AE both happen but no link can be found. To think that one is causing the other is an assumption.

And now try to find THE attention itself. Not just the idea of it, but the ACTUAL attention.
Where is it exactly? What is it like?

Attention doesn't exist, it's just a concept for change in experience in time but there is nothing separate existing as attention.

Are there REALLY two things there, an attention + the attended object (thought/sensation/sound)?

No there is nothing separate from the experience to be found. Nothing else at all.

Or rather there is ONLY thought, then there is ONLY sensation, then there is ONLY sound?

Exactly. Maybe these together at the same time but nothing watching or attending to it. It's clear right now.

Sincerely,
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Exactly. Maybe these together at the same time but nothing watching or attending to it. It's clear right now.

Good.

Do you still pay attention to the sensation labelled ‘me’ during the day?
What do you find when feeling that sensation only as a sensation?

How do does it feel to see that there is no experiencer that things could happen to?

How does it feel to see that there is no attention/awareness being aware of things?

Is searching/seeking still going on?

Is there a desire to do more exercises?

Did you experience any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?

Is there anything that is not completely clear experientially and you would like to look at more?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Do you still pay attention to the sensation labelled ‘me’ during the day?

Yes, I remember to do it around 10 to 15 times a day.

What do you find when feeling that sensation only as a sensation?

It helps switch into a kind of looking where things are viewed as they are and a layer of thoughts that interprets them from the perspective of 'I' gets diminished, which leads to greater freedom, thoughts are not taken so seriously.

How do does it feel to see that there is no experiencer that things could happen to?

It's freedom. Freedom from worry, from discontentment with what is, from desires to some level. All those things still happen but looking is like a secret weapon that just sees everything as it is without unnecessary overlay and all those things then lose their power of influence. Moments of not seeing things clearly still happen but that's quite alright, no need to worry about it.

How does it feel to see that there is no attention/awareness being aware of things?

Loving comes to mind. When there is nothing separate, then everything can be embraced and accepted. Even thoughts of nonacceptance can be accepted because there is noone to deny or resist what is.

Is searching/seeking still going on?

I expect to continue meditating and probably reading spiritual literature too as a way to deepen the overall understanding and to train the mind and certainly will continue to LOOK as often as possible to loosen the illusion of 'self' further. At the same time there is contentment in the present moment and knowing that things are quite alright just the way they are and that there is noone to actually get enlightened.

Is there a desire to do more exercises?

I would be curious to know about the other exercises and when time comes maybe even help lead other people to the same realization. But I don't feel the need to continue as things seem quite clear now.

Did you experience any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?

I've experienced a sudden shift once about three months ago, I would describe it as direct experience of non-duality where all seeming duality completely fell away and there was just experience. Since then I was kind of trying to replicate the experience which didn't really help with anything. You really helped by making it clear that it was a temporary state of mind and that's not something that should be strived for.
In the process of our conversations I had moments of stronger and lesser sense of me but no sudden shifts in experience, so any change was quite gradual with light ups and downs.

Is there anything that is not completely clear experientially and you would like to look at more?

I can't know for sure that no more questions will arise in the future but at the moment it's just about applying the looking as often as possible.

I will be happy to answer any additional questions that may arise, but thoughts say that the seeing is pretty clear right now.

Thank you so much Vivien for your time and dedication to this wonderful cause of liberating as many souls as possible. Life is the same but at the same time it's the greatest gift to see through the illusion.

Sincerely,
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Thank you so much Vivien for your time and dedication to this wonderful cause of liberating as many souls as possible. Life is the same but at the same time it's the greatest gift to see through the illusion.

You are very welcome :) Here are some final questions. I am going to get other guides to have a look on our thread to make sure that we have covered everything.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no separate 'me' at all. It's a label that is conveniently used in language but it doesn't have any substance. It serves its purpose in communication to differentiate between this and other body-minds but then it starts to be trusted that there is actually 'me'/'self'/'I' separate from the experience and this illusion is a false belief that then colours how all experience is interpreted. So there never was any separate 'I' but the illusion that there is, was believed from early childhood.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

When thoughts start narrating experience from the perspective of 'I', as 'I am doing this', 'I am experiencing this', 'I am suffering' and the assumption of 'I is trusted then there is this thought of separate 'self' that needs protection from the outside world, the 'I' that can be hurt, the 'I' that can be missing something. Suddenly this assumed separation creates all kinds of problems and suffering and all of it has power because there is someone who it can happen to. When the illusion is seen through all these thoughts lose power because there is noone to take them personally, it's just life unfolding whether it's good or bad.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Not really different at all. There is more relaxation due to falling away of the need to be seeking something and when looking happens the sense of 'self' is diminished or seen as it is and thoughts are seen through more as well too but most of the time things are the same.

The difference from before is that there is a clarity of knowing that there really is no 'self' and this knowing can be accessed with a little bit of looking. Even remembering the experienced truth without direct looking helps somewhat on a conceptual level to lift the sense of taking things too personally.

Meditation and mindfulness really helps to keep the right perspective throughout the day so I will definitely keep on doing those.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Nothing particular. Learning how to see experience the way it is without additional interpretation really helped with the ability to deconstruct the 'self'. Then it was just about looking repeatedly from different angles. Another important thing was the falling away of expectations, especially expectation of a state of non-duality penetrating every moment of experience.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decision is part of a flow of thoughts, starting with a thought 'there is a decision to make', then thoughts with arguments being presented and ending with a thought 'I have decided this way'. All of these unfold without any influence of any 'I' in it.

Intention is a thought 'I will do this' or 'I want to do this' and then there may be perception of an action (sensations, seeing) but the causality is assumed by thoughts. It's a useful assumption but there is no 'I' intending or doing anything.

Free will is a concept. For it to actually exist there would have to be someone exercising that will, but there is noone to decide anything. Decisions and actions just unfold without any separate entity having power over them.

Choice precedes decision and both are thoughts. Idea of choice assumes someone having the option to make the choice but that's not the case.

Control is an illusion, only a thought. There is noone to exercise control, there is nothing separate from anything else. Control needs a separate controller and the controlled, so within experience where nothing's separate it's impossible to control anything.

Many things on a usual day just happen on their own even without thoughts acting like they have intended them because they are routines. Then there are things in my daily life that need to be planned, decided and such. The idea that those need to be done just appear, then planning happens, thoughts pondering options, then there is an action. No 'me' in any part of it. It may still feel like 'I'm deciding' and even believed but then looking is remembered it can be seen through.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Thoughts do appear saying 'I'm responsible for going to job', 'I'm responsible for taking care of the family' etc, those are thoughts, ideas that may influence actions and other thoughts but there is no entity 'me' that could be responsible. When the illusion is seen through there is liberation from taking the responsibilities personally even in the midst of acting according to them.

6) Anything to add?

I'm curious if you have suggestions where to go from here to stabilize and deepen the insight. Also who should I contact in case I would like to guide other people later?

Sincerely,
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

I'm curious if you have suggestions where to go from here to stabilize and deepen the insight.

It’s simple, just keep looking. Especially when an emotion is present. Continuing to look after the realisation is very much the key.

Also who should I contact in case I would like to guide other people later?

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups, where you can get more information if you would like to become a guide.

Vivien

Hi Daniel,

One of the guides has a question for you.

There is more relaxation due to falling away of the need to be seeking something and when looking happens the sense of 'self' is diminished or seen as it is and thoughts are seen through more as well too but most of the time things are the same.

What the “sense of self” that diminishes when looked at is?

Vivien