RiverRock

[forgetmenot]

Hello John,

The one that feels most fearful itself is the sensation,

Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fearful or knows anything about fear?

but as I've said on a previous post, it is very interesting when you sit alone with the sensation how inseparable it is to other similar sensations we give other names to (love, excitement etc).

So let’s compare sensations to see if there is a difference between sensations. Once again we look at ‘fear’. Find where ‘fear’ or ‘resistance’ is in the body and just focus on the sensation, putting all thoughts about it to the side. Really notice the sensation.

Relax the focus and take in a couple of deep breaths.

Then go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot. Would you call that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a tingling vibration?

Now compare these two sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the sensation labelled ‘fear’ in the chest or where ever – what’s the difference between them? A thought might appear saying that one is more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations.

And when it comes to the words "Fear" "I am afraid" when you look at them and study them, of course they are just letters and combinations of letters to make words, totally random things.

Terrific! Then you can do this with any emotion to see what actually IS. When ‘resistance’ seems to appear…then it is a good idea to do the exercise to see what it is that is actually ‘resisting’. It is the continual seeing that nothing/no one is found that is the key.


Going back to the forehead and eye exercise and your responses

By the way with the first exercise the mental image I used was brain, rather than forehead. I don't think thoughts come from the forehead but do (did?) think they come from the brain.

With the forehead exercise it was for you to see when it seems thinking is happening that the attention goes to the forehead. I want you to add 597 + 876 + 56 to find the total…try and notice how the idea of a ‘forehead furrowing’ also appears along with a sensation that is labelled as ‘concentrating’. This is what gives the idea that there is a ‘self’ somewhere there because this is where attention mainly is when ‘thinking’ happens.
Let me know what you notice.

Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘eyes’ are eyes or a me?

Nope.

So do the eye’s see?

Kay

[Drumps]

Apologies Kay I can’t post today.
John

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

Apologies for the absence. I don't think I have told you but I live most of the time in Africa and on occasion, as in the last day and a half, have to travel to remote areas where phone and internet connection is difficult.

Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fearful or knows anything about fear?

No there is no fear inherent in the sensation itself. And this is common to the sensations we associate with other emotions as well. All of them. They are just associations which thought labels as emotions.

Earlier today I was sitting with the sensation which is associated with fear, which sort of manifests as a tight warmness in my chest. I have been doing this quite a bit over the last week or so - sitting alone with sensations. I knew it was fear because it was related to the thing I was thinking about which has been troubling me a lot recently and my thoughts tell me that this is something I fear. But when you sit with the sensation for a long time and strip it of the mental label of fear it really is just a sensation, nothing more. And in fact a strange thing happened which was the same sensation went from something that I labelled as fear, to something I actually started to associate with pleasure and I found it a nice warm feeling, but of course that is just a thought too. The sensation hadn't changed, it was just how I viewed it. But I found it interesting that that told me there was nothing whatsoever "fearful" inherent in the sensation because the same sensation can be labelled diametrically opposite emotions. The more you think about it and look at it, almost all strong emotional sensations tend to be sort of different versions of the same feeling in the chest. Love, fear, anger, depression, joy, are pretty much, in my experience located in the same area, by basically the same feeling, which the mind labels differently.

The sensation itself does not in any way suggest fear, nor is it fearful itself.

Now compare these two sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the sensation labelled ‘fear’ in the chest or where ever – what’s the difference between them? A thought might appear saying that one is more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations.

I don't think it is a coincidence you have chosen a "remote" location like the soles of the feet to compare with. Because that is as far away from "me" as you can get in my body, whereas the chest where the fear sensation is, is somehow at my core. But when you study and compare the 2 sensations, they are not so different at all really. Just, as you say, the one at the soles of the feet a bit less pronounced. Interesting though, I have in the past sensed fear as a tingling in the soles of the feet and the palms of the hand. So it can happen. But as we've already said, it is not fear. Just tingling.

So I think we are establishing that there are no emotions. Other than thoughts of emotions. That's all that exists of emotions, and that is only inside a thought, which means it doesn't exist. The thought exists but the content is fantasy/non-existent.

With the forehead exercise it was for you to see when it seems thinking is happening that the attention goes to the forehead. I want you to add 597 + 876 + 56 to find the total…try and notice how the idea of a ‘forehead furrowing’ also appears along with a sensation that is labelled as ‘concentrating’. This is what gives the idea that there is a ‘self’ somewhere there because this is where attention mainly is when ‘thinking’ happens.
Let me know what you notice.

I get the furrowing and for sure it happens but that doesn't lead me to feel the self is there. The forehead would simply be a consequence of what is going on in the "real me" ;-) which thought tells me is the brain. I also tend to stick my tongue out when I'm concentrating, that doesn't lead me to think there is a self in the tongue.

Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘eyes’ are eyes or a me?
-Nope.
So do the eye’s see?

No they don't. Any more than the lens in a camera sees. But this takes me back to my experience last weekend where I had no eyes and no ears which was great and led to a very strong connection with everything around me. I wasn't looking AT things from behind these eyes. They didn't exist and I didn't have ears or even a head and it just felt like a center of experience. I guess somehow still localised but not at all separate from the leaves on the trees or other objects around me. There also wasn't so much of a segregation between sound and colour. When you think you are looking out at things from this little container called a head there is strong separation. When you take away the head it puts you (or experience) IN what is being awared. And the sense of being an experiencer goes away.

That's all I have,

John

[forgetmenot]

Hey John,

Apologies for the absence. I don't think I have told you but I live most of the time in Africa and on occasion, as in the last day and a half, have to travel to remote areas where phone and internet connection is difficult.

No worries :) You are always considerate and let me know that you were unable to respond.

I knew it was fear because it was related to the thing I was thinking about which has been troubling me a lot recently and my thoughts tell me that this is something I fear.

Let's look at the idea that a thought is what creates a sensation.

1. Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘fear’ - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. Once again…yuu are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.

I get the furrowing and for sure it happens but that doesn't lead me to feel the self is there. The forehead would simply be a consequence of what is going on in the "real me" ;-) which thought tells me is the brain. I also tend to stick my tongue out when I'm concentrating, that doesn't lead me to think there is a self in the tongue.

Are you sure there is no ‘me’ in the tongue? ;) I had a bit of a laugh at this!

Kay

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

I'm going to focus on this exercise after work today and into tomorrow and I will give you an update on it tomorrow.
As ever, my time is relatively free at the weekends so I am happy to work on anything you want to throw at me.

Talk soon,

John

[forgetmenot]

Hey John...I look forward to your next post.

We have done quite a bit of looking since we started this exploration...what is the difference from before you started this exploration to now? Don't only look at perception changes but also how you feel now, compared to when we started.

Kay

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,
The post below I typed yesterday but couldn't get access to the forum. kept getting a page that said Error Code

Let's look at the idea that a thought is what creates a sensation.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.

I’ve managed to do that exercise 3 times today. Each time I did it for 15 minutes with my eyes closed. My notes from each of the 3 tries are as follows:
1. Session 1.
• Thought and sensation seem connected because thought is necessary for sensation to arise.
• Comes in waves like I am priming the sensation by turning on the thoughts of things that frighten me/cause fear.
• But difficult to sustain. Sensation keeps dissipating.
• So trying again with new fearful thoughts but ends up getting a bit muddled.
• First session quite difficult. Definitely feels the thoughts and sensation are connected – even though I know that the sensation itself is not fear, or fearful.
2. Session 2.
• More steady “fear sensations” throughout this session.
• The thought seems to be necessary to trigger the sensation. Each new boost of the thought seems to create a ripple of sensation.
• This session as I sit for a while, with the sensations coming and going and varying in intensity and also thoughts of fear coming and going.
• My sense of the purpose of this exercise is that there are actually no connections, so I focus and try to prove it wrong and find connections (stubborn). I feel there must be a connection. But it is very hard to find a direct link between a thought and anything in AE. Things in AE exist, thoughts don’t. It is more like thoughts are like radio waves floating above the scene. How can a radio wave, or a thought affect what is experienced in reality. It is apart from reality. Apart from the sensations I am feeling.
3. Session 3.
• The thought seems at first necessary to trigger the sensations.
• But the more you study it, it seems less clear as to whether the thought triggers the sensation or vice versa.
• And then as you sit with them both oscillating (thoughts and sensations) it is not so clear if either one is triggering the other one at all. The sensation rises and falls and rises again, without the thought necessarily being there. And on occasion, the fear thoughts can be there without the sensation.
• And in actual experience, without resorting to descriptions, which at the end of the day is a story, there is no connection.

So in conclusion I would say there is no actual link between the thought/story and the sensation. Although that doesn't seem to square with why thinking about the fear seems a pre-requisite of doing the exercise. A bit unsatisfactory answer I know but that's as I see it.

We have done quite a bit of looking since we started this exploration...what is the difference from before you started this exploration to now? Don't only look at perception changes but also how you feel now, compared to when we started.

Quite hard to explain this properly I think. When I sit and do the exercises I really enjoy them and for sure there is a strong change in the way I feel, and the way I look at things. Even when not doing the specific exercises, I try and take some moments during the day to sit, at work and home and just reflect, and focus on actual experience and watch thoughts dancing around the place with the thought gaps in between. And that is enjoyable and feels different too. But at the same time I would have to say that in my normal day to day life the change is not felt so much, and often not at all. So I think there is still work to do. I try on a regular basis each time a strong emotion or thought comes along to took behind it to see if there is a me doing it. And when looking at colour or sound to see there is no experiencer, just colour and sound. And it seems to me this looking has to continue as much as I am able because it feels like the key to a more lasting change.

Love, John

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,
The post below I typed yesterday but couldn't get access to the forum. kept getting a page that said Error Code

Let's look at the idea that a thought is what creates a sensation.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.

I’ve managed to do that exercise 3 times today. Each time I did it for 15 minutes with my eyes closed. My notes from each of the 3 tries are as follows:
1. Session 1.
• Thought and sensation seem connected because thought is necessary for sensation to arise.
• Comes in waves like I am priming the sensation by turning on the thoughts of things that frighten me/cause fear.
• But difficult to sustain. Sensation keeps dissipating.
• So trying again with new fearful thoughts but ends up getting a bit muddled.
• First session quite difficult. Definitely feels the thoughts and sensation are connected – even though I know that the sensation itself is not fear, or fearful.
2. Session 2.
• More steady “fear sensations” throughout this session.
• The thought seems to be necessary to trigger the sensation. Each new boost of the thought seems to create a ripple of sensation.
• This session as I sit for a while, with the sensations coming and going and varying in intensity and also thoughts of fear coming and going.
• My sense of the purpose of this exercise is that there are actually no connections, so I focus and try to prove it wrong and find connections (stubborn). I feel there must be a connection. But it is very hard to find a direct link between a thought and anything in AE. Things in AE exist, thoughts don’t. It is more like thoughts are like radio waves floating above the scene. How can a radio wave, or a thought affect what is experienced in reality. It is apart from reality. Apart from the sensations I am feeling.
3. Session 3.
• The thought seems at first necessary to trigger the sensations.
• But the more you study it, it seems less clear as to whether the thought triggers the sensation or vice versa.
• And then as you sit with them both oscillating (thoughts and sensations) it is not so clear if either one is triggering the other one at all. The sensation rises and falls and rises again, without the thought necessarily being there. And on occasion, the fear thoughts can be there without the sensation.
• And in actual experience, without resorting to descriptions, which at the end of the day is a story, there is no connection.

So in conclusion I would say there is no actual link between the thought/story and the sensation. Although that doesn't seem to square with why thinking about the fear seems a pre-requisite of doing the exercise. A bit unsatisfactory answer I know but that's as I see it.

We have done quite a bit of looking since we started this exploration...what is the difference from before you started this exploration to now? Don't only look at perception changes but also how you feel now, compared to when we started.

Quite hard to explain this properly I think. When I sit and do the exercises I really enjoy them and for sure there is a strong change in the way I feel, and the way I look at things. Even when not doing the specific exercises, I try and take some moments during the day to sit, at work and home and just reflect, and focus on actual experience and watch thoughts dancing around the place with the thought gaps in between. And that is enjoyable and feels different too. But at the same time I would have to say that in my normal day to day life the change is not felt so much, and often not at all. So I think there is still work to do. I try on a regular basis each time a strong emotion or thought comes along to took behind it to see if there is a me doing it. And when looking at colour or sound to see there is no experiencer, just colour and sound. And it seems to me this looking has to continue as much as I am able because it feels like the key to a more lasting change.

Love, John

[Drumps]

Oops!,

Looks like we're having some "technicals" here. When I sent first time it said page not available. So tried again and the post popped up twice.

John

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

I have some time on my hands today so am continuing to run that exercise looking at thoughts and feelings of fear.
Session 4.
• Thought is saying that the feeling is fear. But the thought itself doesn’t have any feeling at all. How does it know the feeling is fear?
• Thought itself is without feeling and is just raw data or like I said earlier, radio waves, floating around, nowhere. Radio waves can’t feel anything. They just arise and fall away. Thought just seems to latch onto the sensation and claim it as fear. To give it a definition and meaning which it does not actually have in any intrinsic way.
• All things are ultimately connected and there is no separation between things which is just a story made up of thoughts. However, there is no “special connection” ie. direct and binary, between the thought and the sensation. It is the mind which bundles together the fear/feeling/thought/emotion into its own neat package which we say is a feeling of fear which I am feeling because of something.
• The thought causing the feeling? The feeling causing the thought? Which is it? If any? Or is cause and effect just an illusion created by thought, joining the dots in the totally unclassifiable and pin-downable totality of experience? It seems to me when sitting with my eyes closed that things are just arising, and dancing around one another without too much connection that I can get my hands on. Like the thoughts and sensations rising and oscillating freely within experience. And the more you look for a direct tangible link between them it is hard to find. Even though the mind keeps saying they have a direct link and are causally conjoined. It actually feels more like free energy.
• Yes, free movement. Not only is the sensation not directly related to the thought, the fear thought, as with all thoughts is not in any way directly related to anything in AE. Thought like the other arising things just like free movement of energy, off on its own unpredictable and not controllable journey. Part of everything, like everything else, but the special connections that thought draws between things is a deception.
• How can a thought be different from the thing that it is thinking about? In that sense the thought and the sensation are linked but as I said not in a direct causal way. In a different way. They are linked, not separate, purely because there is no separation. So in that way the “special link” between thought and separation does not exist and actual the separation between the thought and the sensation also does not exist.

Bottom line is, when I look very hard to find a direct link between thought/story and the sensation, I can't find any.

Finally on my last paragraph on the last post I am sorry if it is not more gung ho and affirmative of lasting change. I'd be lying if I didn't say there is a bit of me that doesn't feel I am letting you down by not feeling more different. That's just the way it feels. But I know that's not how it works and I am not going to let false expectations cloud the exploration I am going through. I am just going to take this feeling as something to watch and let it pass naturally. I am committed to seeing the process through and I continue to enjoy the view on the way. :)

Cheers,

John

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

Missing you today and over the weekend. :(

I have actually resorted to checking our some of your other posts with other folks. Feels a bit naughty and voyeuristic. But then again I suppose everyone can see my posts as well. Which is fine and cool by me. But generally I don't look so much at other threads because I normally am kept busy with you and also I'd be a bit worried about disrupting the shape of our discussion and getting things out of sequence. Anyway, I notice with a couple of them you had suggested this technique of substituting "blahblahblah" for when you get lost in thought and then checking how the thought train compares to actual experience. What a really cool thing. Sounded simplistic at first, but I've been playing with it throughout today and it really does work. Gives you a totally different take on the thoughts themselves. And it becomes more and more obvious that virtually all of it is bullshit. It has made me laugh out loud 3 times today (2 of which were in public). Anyway, thanks for that.

This lead me on to thinking again about the football commentary exercise we did earlier, and how what the commentator says (which is thought) is riding over what is happening and not having any real impact on it - just analyzing and suggesting things. A thing that also made me laugh while I was doing the blah thing, and realising how "off-message" most thought is, is that it would be probably more accurate if the commentator talked firstly about the match he was watching, then moved on to a match he wasn't watching, then talked about the weather, then what he had for breakfast, and so on... Thought doesn't just comment on what is before us, most of the time it bears absolutely no relation to AE.

That's all for today. Look forward to hearing from you again. Or have you abandoned me(!!)?

John

[forgetmenot]

Hello John,

Once again enjoyed your post…I love the way that you throw yourself into the exercises whole-heartedly. I am sorry that I missed your last post, I never received email notifications and when I went to the forum, I saw no notifications there either. Perhaps it has to do with the technical issues LU had.

So in conclusion I would say there is no actual link between the thought/story and the sensation. Although that doesn't seem to square with why thinking about the fear seems a pre-requisite of doing the exercise. A bit unsatisfactory answer I know but that's as I see it.

Yep, not all answers will seem to satisfy and it’s not really about satisfying thoughts! Can you find anyone/anything that is not satisfied, or that needs to be satisfied?

We have done quite a bit of looking since we started this exploration...what is the difference from before you started this exploration to now? Don't only look at perception changes but also how you feel now, compared to when we started.

Quite hard to explain this properly I think. When I sit and do the exercises I really enjoy them and for sure there is a strong change in the way I feel, and the way I look at things.

Great! So perception change is happening and that is what this is about! :)

But at the same time I would have to say that in my normal day to day life the change is not felt so much, and often not at all. So I think there is still work to do. I try on a regular basis each time a strong emotion or thought comes along to took behind it to see if there is a me doing it. And when looking at colour or sound to see there is no experiencer, just colour and sound. And it seems to me this looking has to continue as much as I am able because it feels like the key to a more lasting change.

Hmmm…what is the expectation here? There are many years (paradoxically) of ingrained conditioning and beliefs…they are certainly not going to change overnight. The realisation of no separate self happens and is a major belief that is seen through…but that is only the beginning and not an ending as there are other beliefs that have to be seen through and who knows how long this takes.

And you are correct…LOOKING has to continue even after having the realisation as that is what cements the seeing of no self every time you look.

Bottom line is, when I look very hard to find a direct link between thought/story and the sensation, I can't find any.

Lovely! There is no cause and effect…this not only points to time but also points to separation…that there is something that can cause something in something else, as well as something following something else ie a thought coming first, followed by a sensation. We will look at the idea of time a little later.

Anyway, I notice with a couple of them you had suggested this technique of substituting "blahblahblah" for when you get lost in thought and then checking how the thought train compares to actual experience. What a really cool thing. Sounded simplistic at first, but I've been playing with it throughout today and it really does work. Gives you a totally different take on the thoughts themselves. And it becomes more and more obvious that virtually all of it is bullshit. It has made me laugh out loud 3 times today (2 of which were in public). Anyway, thanks for that.

You beat me to the punch as that was the next exercise I was going to give you! It is a wonderful tool that distinguishes reality from fantasy! You can use it on any thought to see what actually IS as opposed to what thought say is.

This lead me on to thinking again about the football commentary exercise we did earlier, and how what the commentator says (which is thought) is riding over what is happening and not having any real impact on it - just analyzing and suggesting things. A thing that also made me laugh while I was doing the blah thing, and realising how "off-message" most thought is, is that it would be probably more accurate if the commentator talked firstly about the match he was watching, then moved on to a match he wasn't watching, then talked about the weather, then what he had for breakfast, and so on... Thought doesn't just comment on what is before us, most of the time it bears absolutely no relation to AE.

Yep exactly! The best way to view appearances and what seems to be happening to said appearances, including the the character- is to view them like a flipbook. Then notice how the commentator (thought) overlays it with stories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBjslrnE8Jc

Okay, you have a handle on fear and what it actually is...this is no different to any other emotion that appears. Let’s move onto the idea of control, decision making and choices.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

Yep, not all answers will seem to satisfy and it’s not really about satisfying thoughts! Can you find anyone/anything that is not satisfied, or that needs to be satisfied?

No, what you find are thoughts that say something is unsatisfactory and sometimes feelings that thought interprets as a sign of dissatisfaction. This feeds into expectation and desire. What are the desires expectations I am having and who do they belong to? Or are they just floating thoughts arising and falling only to be replaced by other thoughts.

There are many years (paradoxically) of ingrained conditioning and beliefs…they are certainly not going to change overnight.

Thanks for that which is a comfort. I think I need to keep a reign on expectations (those thoughts that arise and fall that I have no control over ;)). Because I think I am maybe expecting too much too soon. And one or 2 of the little aha moments I have had, which are nice for sure, I think I am expecting to lead onto a runaway train. Patience and focus on the task(s) at hand.

You beat me to the punch as that was the next exercise I was going to give you! It is a wonderful tool that distinguishes reality from fantasy! You can use it on any thought to see what actually IS as opposed to what thought say is.

What I see, and why I'm finding it is so effective, is because it instantaneously takes you out of the thought, lets you see through the thought you were having (mostly rubbish) and brings you BOOM into the present moment. In a really clear way. Works for me anyway. I think trying to control thoughts, which is what I've been trying to do for years, is a total waste of time. That much is clear. It is just about witnessing thoughts and not getting dragged into them and having the ability (blahblahblah) to snap out of it and see the thoughts for what they are, uncontrolled free moving media. As free and uncontrollable as the sounds in my experience.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Yes interesting and my forearms are a bit sore from trying it (don't do anything my halves, me).

A thought definitely does not control the movement. It goes largely on autopilot when I do it repeatedly and I can think of other things while it is going on.

Then when I change to sporadic on/off movements it is interesting. Sometimes it obeys thought and sometimes it directly disobeys thought. So, the movement goes on independent of thought. Then when thought is focused on it its obedience cannot be taken for granted.

The more you get into it a controller or someone choosing what is happening is not apparent, other than the sense of a strong focus/attention which thoughts tell me is me.

How is the movement controlled? Thought tells me by muscles which thought also tells me a hidden sub conscious part of my brain is controlling without me being aware. But I am not as inclined to believe that.

When my wrist gets too sore I move onto more free hand movements where the same randomness and lack of control is apparent. Which of course is the same as walking and other things that we do throughout every day without anyone controlling. Or breathing etc.

Love, John

[forgetmenot]

Hello John,

Yep, not all answers will seem to satisfy and it’s not really about satisfying thoughts! Can you find anyone/anything that is not satisfied, or that needs to be satisfied?

No, what you find are thoughts that say something is unsatisfactory and sometimes feelings that thought interprets as a sign of dissatisfaction. This feeds into expectation and desire. What are the desires expectations I am having and who do they belong to? Or are they just floating thoughts arising and falling only to be replaced by other thoughts.

What exactly is it that has expectations and desires?
What is the AE of 'expectation'?

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

There are many years (paradoxically) of ingrained conditioning and beliefs…they are certainly not going to change overnight.

Thanks for that which is a comfort. I think I need to keep a reign on expectations (those thoughts that arise and fall that I have no control over ;)). Because I think I am maybe expecting too much too soon. And one or 2 of the little aha moments I have had, which are nice for sure, I think I am expecting to lead onto a runaway train. Patience and focus on the task(s) at hand.

The shift to realisation can be very subtle and is simply a ‘aha’ moment, albeit a ‘AHA’ instead of a ‘aha’! If you are expecting fireworks, trumpeting angels or even for thought to congratulate you and tell you that you have reached your goal…then you can actually miss that you had the realisation. Expectations compare what is happening now to an imagined future happening, and if the current happening does not match the imagined, this is then labelled as ‘liberated’ or ‘not liberated and can blindside the fact that it is seen that there is an absence of a separate self.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

A thought definitely does not control the movement. It goes largely on autopilot when I do it repeatedly and I can think of other things while it is going on.

Keep an eye out for the next couple of days when you find yourself mindlessly scratching an itch without being conscious of a ‘decision’ to scratch it. There are many things that can confirm that a thought is not the catalyst for movement/action.

Then when I change to sporadic on/off movements it is interesting. Sometimes it obeys thought and sometimes it directly disobeys thought. So, the movement goes on independent of thought. Then when thought is focused on it its obedience cannot be taken for granted.

I, for one am grateful for this. What would happen if thought were the actual catalyst for movement/action? Picture yourself walking down a busy street and next minute a thought saying ‘hop, skip and jump’ appeared….you would be hopping, skipping and jumping down the street! Or you are at the dinner table and a thought appeared saying ‘pick your nose’!

The more you get into it a controller or someone choosing what is happening is not apparent, other than the sense of a strong focus/attention which thoughts tell me is me.

Could it be that focus/attention just moves too – without a ‘you’ guiding it?

How is the movement controlled? Thought tells me by muscles which thought also tells me a hidden sub conscious part of my brain is controlling without me being aware. But I am not as inclined to believe that.

What is the AE of “muscles”?
Can you find “hidden sub conscious part of my brain” in actual experience?

When my wrist gets too sore I move onto more free hand movements where the same randomness and lack of control is apparent. Which of course is the same as walking and other things that we do throughout every day without anyone controlling. Or breathing etc.

Precisely!

Love, Kay

[Drumps]

Hi Kay,

What exactly is it that has expectations and desires?
What is the AE of 'expectation'?

Well maybe we can start the answer by saying what are expectations/desire? The first thing to say is they just are. Or at least thoughts exist that suggest desire. And feelings (sensations) exist that thought then labels as desire. But an owner (or a doer) of these desires/expectations cannot be located. And certainly can't be found in actual experience. And anything which can't be found in AE simply isn't.

AE of expectation is thought.

There are many things that can confirm that a thought is not the catalyst for movement/action.

You can say that again. I am not long back from my regular run and the whole thing happened without me doing any of it. I know that's easy to say but for my run, which normally lasts about an hour, I just watched it and all of the questions we discussed about the turning hand came into my mind. Does thought control movement? Can a controller be found? Etc. All clear. It is all happening completely automatically without any controlling by any person (ie me).

Could it be that focus/attention just moves too – without a ‘you’ guiding it?

Absolutely. Focus and attention just moves around without being controlled. Attention just lands on stuff naturally without any prompting and can stay there or move on. Just happens. The process is similar to, and in many ways related to, thought. What thoughts come up and which ones you dwell on. Again, just happens.

What is the AE of “muscles”?

AE of "muscles" is thought.

Can you find “hidden sub conscious part of my brain” in actual experience?

You're kidding, right Kay? No I can't seem to find my sub conscious in my actual experience. ;-)

That's all I have today.

Love, John