Looking for a clearer look

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Doing this exercise helped me catch useless thought commentary and notice when it's not needed. Specific answers below.

What did you find when doing this exercise?

Watching the first time without commentary was very passive. Not invested in any particulars of the shapes moving around. A noticing of the entire visual area without attachment to a specific part of it. More detachment, more relaxed, less interested.

With sound it felt like I zoomed in with focus onto the visual. I was more attached to the images. I had sensations of contraction and the game had much more meaning and pressure on the players. The commentary also made the ball the most important object and that was tracked visually more.
Things returned to the first state when sound was turned off again but had some traces of focus on specific images but not much.
With commentary on it was hard to observe it as just sound. It took a lot of effort and was easy to slip back into listening to it.

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?

Nope

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

I want it say no but I have to say
Yes and no.
No for useless commentary on certain things or qualities of things or judgments.
Yes for decision making, reasoning out a feeling,
Pointing out something that needs to be changed.
Some judgements feel like an accurate analysis of a situation that's needed.

I'll keep an eye on specific places in daily life where I feel thought is necessary.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Okay, great. Let's look at the details some.

Watching the first time without commentary was very passive. Not invested in any particulars of the shapes moving around. A noticing of the entire visual area without attachment to a specific part of it. More detachment, more relaxed, less interested.

Yes, when we are used to the illusions of control, decision-making and free will, which arise out of our fears, it can seem "passive." Yet, this relaxation and perspective of not needing to *do* anything is exactly what is required to SEE that there is no self, never has been and never will be. It is so much more relaxed!

What you now label "passive," you may come to feel is "relaxed."

Just as with the sports video none of our interventions are necessary. Even after you see no self for the first time, it can take months, even years, to let go and relax out of "doer-ship" and the imagining that we have any control. But, as always, do not believe me. Keep LOOKING and checking for yourself with these exercises.

I was more attached to the images. I had sensations of contraction

Exactly - remember that lying feeling of contraction? We get sucked back in.

more meaning and pressure

Meaning? That is content of thought - and what do we know about content of thought? Sure, Thought Arises. That is AE, but meaning? Totally made up. That can be startling and scary, so take your time looking at these things.

Pressure? Yes, a contraction, tightness, heaviness. Is that in the same family as your lying feeling? Check.

I want it say no but I have to say
Yes and no.
No for useless commentary on certain things or qualities of things or judgments.
Yes for decision making, reasoning out a feeling,
Pointing out something that needs to be changed.
Some judgements feel like an accurate analysis of a situation that's needed.

We are about to do some exercises for you to LOOK and see what you can learn about these ideas. These ideas are all learned and all content of thought.

I'll keep an eye on specific places in daily life where I feel thought is necessary.

No. Please don't. That is your mind trying to make up stories where none are necessary.

Just do the exercises. They are enough to show a willing and open mind what is real and what isn't. What hurts (contractions) and what doesn't (expansion). DO remember to check for contractions in the body when your mind presents you with content like that.

Still with me? Good. Let's look very carefully at this illusion of decision-making, ok?

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience (DE aka AE.) Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Really LOOK. Do this exercise several times.


Let me know what is found. Relax and have fun with it. Let go and notice what is going on here.

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Very befuddling exercise .

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience (DE aka AE.) Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled? 

No idea, I watch and I watch and then it flips

Does a thought control it?

Nope there's silence on the thought front

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, it's spooky but not that I'm able to find.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately. 

No clue can't seem to find where this happens!

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Not sure if I'm doing it wrong but the answer is .. its automatic and was already chosen before this question came up.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No I can't

Really LOOK. Do this exercise several times

I have and the weird thought content that pops up is that whatever is receiving the instructions (the body) and carrying it out is real, and what is interpreting and reporting this here is not. That seems completely weird and makes the self (myself) a product of language. Wanted to check if this is some over analytical thought or something else.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

YES!

This is working for you. Do this a few more times and watch very very carefully as you have done.

Can you find any mechanism that you have any control over that flips your hand?

If so, please describe it in detail.

Remember, it is the looking that matters, not the explanations, and not writing about it to me. It is in the actual Act of looking that you will find no self.

Love

[Anastacia42]

Sid,

Out here doing a happy dance!

I have and the weird thought content that pops up is that whatever is receiving the instructions (the body) and carrying it out is real, and what is interpreting and reporting this here is not. That seems completely weird and makes the self (myself) a product of language. Wanted to check if this is some over analytical thought or something else.

YES, "self" is only content of thought - a totally made-up story.

Thought arises, yes. Awareness exists, yes. Seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, touching... As processes, as verbs, as things happening in the moment, but not as content of thought. No meaning. No interpretation.

KEEP LOOKING!

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy,

Do this a few more times and watch very very carefully as you have done. 

Can you find any mechanism that you have any control over that flips your hand?
.

Have repeated this many times

The hand flipping feels automatic. I don't detect any thought that is required or comes up before the flip. The only thing I could sense was I could know (predict?) when there was a longer period of no flip that would come. A tingle in the body or slight contraction when a period of holding the palm in one direction.

Can't find any controller either in this or at anytime.

YES, "self" is only content of thought - a totally made-up story. 

Thought arises, yes. Awareness exists, yes. Seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, touching... As processes, as verbs, as things happening in the moment, but not as content of thought. No meaning. No interpretation.

Yes I'm starting to feel clearer about the answers never being in thought contents if that is what's containing the non existent self. More trust in the Looking is happening.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid!

Good. Yes, mostly.

The hand flipping feels automatic. I don't detect any thought that is required or comes up before the flip.

It is. It does arise out of nothing.

The only thing I could sense was I could know (predict?) when there was a longer period of no flip that would come. A tingle in the body or slight contraction when a period of holding the palm in one direction.

Now, let's look at this and see what is true about it.

What if you notice there is a longer period of no flipping. Then you think, "I can predict this." And then you get what? A contraction? And what do we know about this sensation? When does it happen? Really check. Don't just say what you think about it or what you think I think about it.


Let's look at another one, then:

Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.

2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

How is the decision made?

It's similar, of course, but let's be really clear before we move on - okay? There are a few of these.

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy,

--The only thing I could sense was I could know (predict?) when there was a longer period of no flip that would come. A tingle in the body or slight contraction when a period of holding the palm in one direction.

Now, let's look at this and see what is true about it. 

What if you notice there is a longer period of no flipping. Then you think, "I can predict this." And then you get what? A contraction? And what do we know about this sensation? When does it happen? Really check. Don't just say what you think about it or what you think I think about it.

Hadn't considered that. I did this and noticed that when I see a period of no flipping, the urge to predict the flip happens and the tension starts to grow, becoming more uncomfortable. Yes it's the feeling of untruth growing. The same discomfort isn't registered in the quicker flips as theres not enough time for thought to come in with a claim.

Let's look at another one, then: 

Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.

2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Choice is happening on it's own.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No nothing is choosing or no individual chooser is seen anywhere

What is it that is controlling the hand?

The hand moves on it's own. If anything the reading of the instructions or remembering the exercise seems to trigger the hand to start.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller can be found.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No nothing can be detected

How is the decision made?

Something that isn't in my control.

It's similar, of course, but let's be really clear before we move on - okay? There are a few of these

Yup for sure. I find this exercise relaxing and feels more like the body goes on autopilot.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Yes, nothing & no one. Doesn't that feel truer?

the urge to predict the flip happens and the tension starts to grow, becoming more uncomfortable. Yes it's the feeling of untruth growing.

Noticing this more often can be life-changing.

If anything the reading of the instructions or remembering the exercise seems to trigger the hand to start.

Okay, HOW does that "triggering" happening? What is the process or the mechanism?

I find this exercise relaxing and feels more like the body goes on autopilot.

Notice that you've been on autopilot all along, your whole life. It is relaxing and it is extremely freeing. Did you ever actually control anything? Check.


Drink Exercise

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear rxample of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a 'feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to choose?


Have fun & report what is found.

Loving,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Been a bit tied up travelling today and will write to you tomorrow once I spend some time with the questions.
Love,
Sid

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, I was having trouble finding 2 drinks so I decided to do this on 2 articles I wanted to read. Will try with multiple things and repeat to see if different.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No the qualities pop-up the moment the object is seen. There's an evaluation that churns out qualities.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No I'd say a thought popped up that said "ok let's count" and counting started.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I did have a thought that popped up that said "I know I'll choose this" but from what is learnt about the thought is that it's naming a feeling of preference.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a 'feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to choose

No choosing function to be found. But Yes I experienced a feeling, a sort of desire and excitement almost a physical sensation towards one of them. Interestingly I had one other article in my choice set that I was choosing between but I got that untruth feeling when I started to compare one versus the other and had to swap that out for another one that was closer to what I liked. So yes the feeling isn't the me choosing it's just a auto reaction preference based on past feelings.

If anything the reading of the instructions or remembering the exercise seems to trigger the hand to start.

Okay, HOW does that "triggering" happening? What is the process or the mechanism?

No mechanism as such the decision to start is automatically taken after the instructions are known. Frequently without announcement in thought.

I find this exercise relaxing and feels more like the body goes on autopilot.

Notice that you've been on autopilot all along, your whole life. It is relaxing and it is extremely freeing. Did you ever actually control anything? Check

I believe that is true and it feels like I'm more forgiving about the past, but should I then not have judgements about myself or others if this is truly believed? Or are those only thought contents happening spontaneously too.

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Sid!

No mechanism as such the decision to start is automatically taken after the instructions are known. Frequently without announcement in thought.

Noticing writing without the "I." This can be an indication of seeing no-self.

but should I then not have judgements about myself or others if this is truly believed? Or are those only thought contents happening spontaneously too.

You know the answer to this. Of course it is only thought contents happening spontaneously, but don't believe me, check! You can look and see it for yourself.

Thoughts continue to pop up. That's just what thoughts do.

Food Choice

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviours in any way? Try this out.

Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.


Have fun!

Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Noticing writing without the "I." This can be an indication of seeing no-self.

Yes there has been a more detached way of looking at the body/mind at times. More relaxed but sometimes unsure if it's really that automatic. But then for long periods I'll slip back into regular identified behavior until a decision to move towards looking comes up.

but should I then not have judgements about myself or others if this is truly believed? Or are those only thought contents happening spontaneously too.

You know the answer to this. Of course it is only thought contents happening spontaneously, but don't believe me, check! You can look and see it for yourself.


Thoughts continue to pop up. That's just what thoughts do.

Hmm so thoughts have somewhat of an Inertia in their contents then. There needs to be more disbelieving of thoughts that start up the I narrative then.

Food Choice

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviours in any way? Try this out. 

Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first. 

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

Clarification on the exercise. Am I labelling the bad one and then saying bad thoughts about it prior to making a choice? Sort of an exercise to see if the bad thoughts affect my choice of what is going to be eaten?

Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi!

But then for long periods I'll slip back into regular identified behavior until a decision to move towards looking comes up.

Not to worry about that. This will go back & forth for some time, could be years.

Hmm so thoughts have somewhat of an Inertia in their contents then. There needs to be more disbelieving of thoughts that start up the I narrative then.

More accurately: more *questioning* of thoughts.

Clarification on the exercise. Am I labelling the bad one and then saying bad thoughts about it prior to making a choice? Sort of an exercise to see if the bad thoughts affect my choice of what is going to be eaten?

Most of us have beliefs about some foods being "good" and some foods being "bad." This is simply noticing an added layer of thoughts that STILL have NO MEANING. You are only LOOKING to see if these thoughts controlled which food got eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

Notice that sometimes we do an exercise with relatively neutral content and then we do another version with content that we may have more attachment to, more belief in the story. That's all.

Earlier, did we do the exercise of noticing that the label GREEN has no effect on the experience of seeing the color red? That exercise has a relatively neutral content. Afterwards, we may have done an exercise just like it with the labels Friend and Stranger. If not, we can do those.

I can appreciate your desire to understand the purpose of each exercise. Following the instructions as given will usually explain it to you on its own. But feel free to ask.

Much love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Gotcha! Wasn't sure if I was doing the exercise wrong. Thanks for the explanation

Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

The labels and commentary didn't change the fact that the bad one got eaten first. The thing is that thought names the one that has a preference building up towards but I see that as just commentary. I noticed this while waking up too where a thought might say "I'm getting up now" while the body doesn't move. Like it's oblivious to thoughts efforts.


Love,
Sid