Seeing through me

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:07 pm

How is the movement controlled?
I ended up never turning the palm. But I had several thoughts about doing it. It was an interesting thing, perhaps I wanted to prove something, I'm not sure. I have had similar situations to this earlier. Thinking, in advance, that I'm going to do something a certain way and ignoring that thought and then, when the moment to choose actually arise I do it another way from what I thought earlier. I try to not plan ahead much.
Does a thought control it?
There were several thoughts about turning the palm, but I never did. It was very close a few times.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
No clue how the decision was made to never turn the hand over.
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
I can't track any point.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
If I were to go with what I have learnt earlier in my life - I would say that it is something like my subconscious mind. But that never explained anything.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. I like the spokiness of these experiments.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:10 pm

HI Hakan!

You are a tricky one! I see that I am going to have to watch *you* like a hawk. :)
I ended up never turning the palm. But I had several thoughts about doing it. It was an interesting thing, perhaps I wanted to prove something,
Basically, your thinking took over and you did not do the exercise. This shows the fear of loss of control - control, that as you noted, you cannot find any evidence for in the first place. Your thinking was trying to prove that it had control. Fear is behind that. Fear is also behind not making time to sit at a keyboard for long enough to reply and behind trying to do one question at a time, which would break up the process into pieces so that the whole would not be seen.

Can you see how your fearful thinking kept you from doing the exercise?

I'm not here to control you. I am here to offer you the most sublime and visceral SEEING of no self. This only works if you do the exercises as given. If you "take control" or "try to prove something," you're really only being a slave to your thoughts. Do you see that?

Many students go through some similar fears. This is quite understandable. It is the reason we check expectations & fears before we even start.

Take a look. What are you afraid will happen if you surrender and do the exercise exactly as instructed? What do you fear will happen when you notice/discover that you have no control (& never did)?

The evidence is very clear that things are working just fine & always have - even though you have never had control.

In addition to re-doing the Palm Flipping exercise, please make a long list of this evidence: things in the world that are working just fine without your control or willing them to.

Here are a couple of examples to get you started:

The Sun rises every day without you doing anything
Your body digests food without you having to think about it or control it
You do not have to control or even pay any attention at all to your next breath
or the beating of your heart.

Letting go and LOOKING seems to be a challenge. It looks hard and frightening, and once it is done, it is one of the simplest things you've ever SEEN. You will wonder how you didn't see it before and why you took so long to just follow the simple instructions.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:06 am

Can you see how your fearful thinking kept you from doing the exercise?
There are many, many situations every day where are I noticed afterwards that I have just done something. The way I have thought about that is that my subconscious or auto pilot has taken over. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be a division between subconscious and conscious , I may feel very conscious at times and still notice that there seems to be a choice being made without me deciding.
When trying this exercise I somehow thought that being present in the exercise would make me be able to not turn the palm.
Perhaps I am twisting this, but couldn’t it also be that by turning my palm I do it because I feel fear that if I don’t I’m not doing what I should. I know I have this thing against authorities and I like to feel free and not being controlled. Can you see that this control thing may be viewed from several viewpoints?
I'm not here to control you. I am here to offer you the most sublime and visceral SEEING of no self. This only works if you do the exercises as given. If you "take control" or "try to prove something," you're really only being a slave to your thoughts. Do you see that?
I understand that this is another view on this exercise. And yes, I do appreciate that you are guiding me and I want to do the exercises as expected. I will try it again and just turn the damn palm.
Take a look. What are you afraid will happen if you surrender and do the exercise exactly as instructed? What do you fear will happen when you notice/discover that you have no control (& never did)?

I think I’m afraid of being vulnerable to this world that I nowadays sometimes feel is almost like a part of myself, but sometimes I’m afraid of it and feel the need to protect myself from.
In addition to re-doing the Palm Flipping exercise, please make a long list of this evidence: things in the world that are working just fine without your control or willing them to.
Going to sleep
Waking up
Dreaming
Thinking
Looking with my eyes in a new direction
Reacting to things
Talking, I agree with what Sam Harris say that I never Know what I am going to say or think next.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:16 pm

Good morning!
Can you see that this control thing may be viewed from several viewpoints?
Let's keep this simple.

In this forum, you are here to see no self. This includes seeing that there is no controller or decider and a few other things. We'll get to those.

To learn that, you are learning to recognize the only 6 things are Actual Experience: seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and thought arising but never the content of the thought which is always a story that we made up.

Therefore, from your comment above: control, viewed, several, and viewpoints are all content of thought. They are made up. They are story. Someone had to teach those to us. And we have to believe it. We cannot see it, hear it, feel it, taste it, or smell it.

If we actually look, and stop believing in them, they disappear.

And guess what? Fear is the same way!

Fear equals Sensation (AE) + Thought Arising (AE) + thought content that is believed (NOT AE).

Don't believe me. LOOK!

Here's an exercise for noticing this fact about fear.

Please make a list of the Body Sensations related to fear. Reply with that and I will give you a second step.


Regarding stories of viewpoints, anywhere else, and after you are finished here, you are welcome to entertain as many stories (viewpoints) as you like. But here, we have a specific goal and a specific context. To do otherwise will prevent you from reaching your goal.

My job is to help you reach the goal of seeing no self. Whatever it takes.

We are both here voluntarily. I am a volunteer. And you volunteered to be here. I'm not saying a choice was made. Yes, this is kind of a paradox. There is no body, but if I step out in front of a bus, I will die. We are not looking at that level here.
I agree with what Sam Harris say that I never Know what I am going to say or think next.
Waking Up is one of my favorite books. To agree with Sam Harris is generally to agree with the facts, to agree with reality, to see what is and not the lies we made up to believe in.

His statement of no choice goes beyond talking. I can't recall whether that's covered in the book, or just in the podcast that I've heard. But I'm pretty sure it's in both places.

However, this is not a course in Sam Harris. He has put out an app for meditation, but I've done through lesson 15 and it still isn't as direct as what we're doing here. His is made for people who've never meditated, so he starts way back at the beginning. Besides, while you're doing this, you have put aside everything except a meditation practice you already have.

I do appreciate that you are guiding me and I want to do the exercises as expected. I will try it again and just turn the damn palm.
Great, and thank you, but before we go back to the Palm exercise, we need to look at that fear. Please do the exercise above and report back with a list of Sensations that arise and are then labeled "fear."

Remember, I'm on your side. This works. But only if you follow the instructions.


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:37 pm

Here's an exercise for noticing this fact about fear.

Please make a list of the Body Sensations related to fear. Reply with that and I will give you a second step.
Fast heart beat
Sweating
A sensation that feels like something like an electrical shock, which I sometimes feel when I have anxiety
Panic
Widened eyes
Feeling of coldness in the body
Tense muscles
Feeling as if the heart would stop

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:13 pm

Beautiful!

Now remember one or more times when you were really excited about something.

Please list the Body Sensations you felt when you were feeling strong excitement.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Please list the Body Sensations you felt when you were feeling strong excitement.
Heat, warmth
The body feeling light
Tingling sensations
Feeling energetic, a flow of energy in the body
Raised pulse

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:18 am

Okay, good, thank you, Hakan.

Let's look at those two lists:

Fear:

Fast heart beat
Sweating
A sensation that feels like something like an electrical shock, which I sometimes feel when I have anxiety
Panic (not a body sensation)
Widened eyes
Feeling of coldness in the body
Tense muscles
Feeling as if the heart would stop

Excitement:

Heat, warmth
The body feeling light
Tingling sensations
Feeling energetic, a flow of energy in the body
Raised pulse


Do these seem to be in the same "family" of sensations?

For example, the "sensation that feels something like an electrical shock" in fear. Is that in the same "family" of sensations as "tingling sensations?"

You have more detail about the fear-thought. They aren't necessarily identical. We're just checking for any correlations.

Let me know how that seems to you as you compare them.
Then I'll suggest a possible understanding about this.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:14 pm

these seem to be in the same "family" of sensations?

For example, the "sensation that feels something like an electrical shock" in fear. Is that in the same "family" of sensations as "tingling sensations?"
Yes, they seem to be in the same family of sensations. I even listed raised pulse on both fear and excitement.

Maybe I had a glimpse of no self this afternoon. I took a break from work and went to the bathroom. I felt some stress and there were a lot of thoughts , I don’t remember exactly about what, but things about what I should do and what I should not do, something like that. And then suddenly there was some kind of detachment from the whole thought process. Often when I am stressed and think a lot I get drawn into this thinking and away from the present moment. But this time, suddenly, presence was there very much in the midst of all this thinking. The presence didn’t seem to have anything to do with the thinking and the thoughts just kept on going, they were not at all affected by the presence. At other times when I do manage to become present in a stressful situation I often feel that I control the thinking, rather than let it be. But this time there was no need for that, the thoughts went on and on and it just felt natural and ok. And the content of the thoughts was not disturbing, it was like standing outside of the thought process, outside of myself. I just stood there for a minute or two and then went back to work and this experience faded. It was very interesting, a little spooky, but at the same time very relieving.

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:19 pm

I have never before experienced this.I think I have never fully understood the concept of letting go of my thoughts. I have felt strong presence so many times and a nice openness also. But there has always been some kind of effort involved, like I’m suppressing and controlling the thoughts rather than letting them be.

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:21 pm

I forgot to mention that there was also a kind of sense of detachment from the body during this experience. I think perhaps that was the thing I found most spooky about it.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Yes, Hakan, yes, yes, yes. That sounds like SEEING. Let's keep going!

First, the point, obviously, of the comparison of the Sensations (AE) of "fear" and "excitement" is that these are nearly the same Sensations only with different *stories* or *content* or *interpretation*.

And what do we know about the content of thought? WE MADE IT UP. It isn't real! It cannot be seen, heard, felt, tasted or smelled. It is merely Thought Arising (AE) with the made-up content of either "fear" or "excitement" (NOT AE).

Got it? :)

Interesting that a common exercise given for panic attacks is simply to notice the 5 senses and name out loud what is seen, heard, felt, tasted and smelled, one at a time until panic recedes. It does! Why? It gets you to use the part of your brain that does not know how to "fear."

Okay, ready to flip that "damn palm?" ;)

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When you reply, please quote each question separately and put your reply underneath so I can follow what you are saying.



Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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HakanJson
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby HakanJson » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:00 pm

How is the movement controlled?
I dont know, seems like the hand is doing it by itself.
Does a thought control it?
If a thought controls it then I can't detect that thought.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I dont know, it seems to happen by itself.
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
I'm not able to do that.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
It just happened that way.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:00 am

Exactly!

I will reply more fully and give you a new exercise, but I wanted you to know I've got it.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: Seeing through me

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:25 am

Hi Hakan,

How are you doing with the Body Sensations that may be described as Sensation + Thought Arising? The ones that you have sometimes labeled fear or excitement?

Wasn't it more fun to flip the palm and notice that there was no self directing it?

How is the seeing no self going? Any further experiences of clarity?


Sports Exercise

Please note that you will have to check the link when using this exercise, to make sure it is still viable, as sometimes they are removed from Youtube.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport, please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.


What did you find when doing this exercise?

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?



As usual, let me know your answers one at a time, under quoted boxes.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


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