The Gate

Hi Billy

What helps here is dont start with the big stuff. Watch this process of thoughts, decision, actions, control, controler ... in direct experience in everyday life for some days. Report what you find out once a day.

The mind always wants to believe it controls all, but when looked at I find no controller. I shall continue to report and watch closely

Yes please continue to report, if posible once a day!
Please bring examples from Everyday life. What is same und what has changed sice beginning of our journey?

Warmly verananda

Sorry Verananda.
I was away camping for a couple of nights and had no signal. I have been watching the process over various things that have been going on.
On deciding to go kayaking. The decision was made somewhere and came forth in a thought. An action was then taking place. E.g. walking down to Loch side. It was windy. Thoughts were appearing regarding the rough conditions. The decision appeared in thought that we would not risk going onto the water. Before I would have said that "I" controlled these decisions. But these were thoughts and decisions were coming prior to thought from nothing.

I found when driving the car that these actions. Changing gear, indicating, braking etc etc are happening without thought engaging. Decisions are made without any thought. Thoughts could be thinking about anything other than driving and driving is just happening. Turning around and looking for the controller driving and there is nothing to be found.

Sitting here I glance at the dog sleeping and the thought pop's in. I must take him for his evening walk followed very quickly with, it's wet and windy accompanied with this dreaded feeling of, I really don't want to go out there. Thought then thinks these are thoughts. Looking for whats past the thoughts and find nothing, the feeling of dread disappears. There is instance of calm.

Mind finds this all frustrating and does not want to let go of analysing. It wants to find a controller and it does not want to give in to not believing.

Warm regards
Billy

Good evening Verananda

Greater clarity on realising that thoughts are only thoughts. More clarity on what was once believed that "I" was making decisions to realising the decision is made prior to thought. More able to sit back and watch the thoughts flowing through mind. The habitual thought stream comes about thoughts of career choice. I am just relaxing and watching them. It seems they are believing they are controlling my choices and future. They are Fear orientated, when actually everything is fine as it is!

Love
Billy

Hi Billy,

sounds good!

please continue reporting!

And tell me ....
There is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one.
No I that makes decisions, has free will or control over anything.
Can you give me a big fat non intellectual but really seen YES to this? 100% ? Any doubt?

love verananda

Hi Verananda

At times I see clarity and have it 100%. Then I get stuck in thought streams and old beliefs raise there head. I end up analysing to much. Then see a snippet of clarity.
That's where I've been for the past day or so. What is the best way to see the clarity simpler instead of getting caught in that mind trap.

I've read so many stories of all these magical enlighting moments that happen to people and im like WTF. Where's my moment lol. It's so subtle and quick.

Love Billy

Hi Billy

At times I see clarity and have it 100%. Then I get stuck in thought streams and old beliefs raise there head. I end up analysing to much. Then see a snippet of clarity. That's where I've been for the past day or so. What is the best way to see the clarity simpler instead of getting caught in that mind trap.

Nothing else? No life beyond clarity rising and vanishing? We are interested in changes and no-changes in your life - relaxed. Just looking.
Who gets stuck?????
Can you find anything else than thoughts?
Thoughts are no problem!
One moment with 100% clarity is enought!
If you see there is no I , me, selfe, contol, free will or decision maker and have never been it is also clear that it moments of thought streams and old beliefs there is also nothing else than thoughts. No I , me, selfe, contol, ....
In this game here, we dont want to change or improve anything - like stop or reduce analysing or changing thoughts.
Who wants to have more clarity and reduce thought and analysing?
Look for this "Who?" instead of "how to change".
We just want to see truth behind all of that.
Nothing more.

What comes up if you read this?
Can you see the truth in it?
Can you find this "who?"

I've read so many stories of all these magical enlighting moments that happen to people and im like WTF. Where's my moment lol. It's so subtle and quick.

Yes, thats because the magical moments are better sold than the "nothing special" ones!
And they get more and more magical with each time they are told again :-)
Seeing truth is beyond all this stories!
and it's different for everyone.
If you wait for the big moment you miss yours that is here and now all the time! ;-)

love
verananda

Hi Verananda

Definitely seeing all being thought and only thought. No I, self, controller. Its easier to see in everyday life and it becomes clearer

Nothing else? No life beyond clarity rising and vanishing?

Definitely life on charity. More life. A slight feeling of peace arises. Not a thought of peace just a subtle feeling. Hard to describe.

Who gets stuck?????

Only thought thinking

Can you find anything else than thoughts?

Nothing else at all.

Who wants to have more clarity and reduce thought and analysing?

Only thought wants this.

What comes up if you read this?
Can you see the truth in it?
Can you find this "who?"

I see it's the illusionary self that wants it. It's all just movement of the mind. Can't find the who because there is no who. :)

Thank You for all your patience and guidance.
Love Billy

Hi Billy

fine!
:-)

Are there any open question from your side?

If not I would like to give you the "6 final questions". It is a good opportunity to check if you have seen through the different aspects of no-self. If something is not clear we will look at it. Are you ready for it?

warmly verananda

Ok. I don't have any questions here.

Ready for the 6 you have for me.

:-)
ok ... here they are ..... You answered some of these aspects in your posts before. It is a good way to write or summarize here as it is seen now ... have fun:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
warmly verananda

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no seperate entity and never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's nothing but thought which can seem complex as it creates a belief that there is an observer but is In fact thought analysing thought. It's on mostly, telling a story of likes, dislikes, should I shouldn't I. Opinions judgments etc. I see it as only thoughts and not reality. Just like the way a future scenario may be played. Quite simply just thoughts that just come and go.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

A feeling if freedom and quite comical at the simplicity of the truth of it. I believed that "I" existed and ran my life, now I can see it as only thoughts.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking for the "who" that wanted more clarity. On the evening of looking I suddenly saw it was all just thought adding to the illusion. Quite a subtle but profound experience.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision is made from somewhere other than thought but comes forth as a thought. As is intention. Freewill, choice and control are beliefs of the mind and are certainly not governed by thoughts.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know. Lol. I can't see how it works. A thought may pop up from somewhere that may remind me to do something. Action then happens, although things are happening anyway without Thought.

d) Give examples from experience

.
Driving a car. Multiple Things are happening continuously yet with thought not being applied. Then a decision may come forth as a thought. "Im going to pass this car" action then happens.

6) Anything to add?

Received a message today offering some work. Various thought streams popped into mind of, "Will i", "won't i". But quite quickly the thought decision "no" came into thought. There was a much more relaxed peaceful feeling. Everything recognised as thought without the fear produced by thinking have "i" done the right thing.

Warm regards

Billy

Hi Billy,
thank you for your answeres!
I have a few questions:

2) Explain in detail ....

Can you see how and when this illusion of separate self starts ?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decision is made from somewhere other than thought but comes forth as a thought. As is intention. Freewill, choice and control are beliefs of the mind and are certainly not governed by thoughts.

Where is the decision made then?
This "beliefs of the mind" are they anything other than thoughts?
Are they governed by anything else?
Do they exist?

5) c) What are you responsible for?

You left this question .... please answer! :-)

love verananda

Can you see how and when this illusion of separate self starts ?

No I can't.

Where is the decision made then?

I don't know. From nothing

This "beliefs of the mind" are they anything other than thoughts?
Are they governed by anything else?
Do they exist?

Nothing more than thoughts. Are not governed by anything else.
They do not exist as only thoughts.

Sorry I missed this no.5.

5) c) What are you responsible for?

Nothing!

Love
Billy

Hi Billy,

At the moment I have no further questions.

The other guides will have a look at it.

I will post again soon.

Love
Verananda

Hi Billy,

thank you for clarification and welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you.

Your name will be changed from green to blue on the forum, which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Our conversation is technically concluded and our thread has been moved to Archive section.

Keep an eye out for PM (privat message) one from admin team which invites you to LU Facebook groups and has other information and resources and one PM from me.

It has been a pleasure to walk this journey with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Love

Verananda