Vikasana & Forgetmenots thread

[Vikasana]

'Challenging' also.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

I haven't noticed a particularly strong feeling about seeing a controller cannot be found. Perhaps it needs more looking and time to absorb? I've had feelings arising such as tearfulness and tightness in my right side more frequently which I'm looking into.

I've also had a few thoughts today about control including not being in control of situations. I suppose it feels a bit uncomfortable at times and other times a relief to acknowledge.

I am just checking so that if any emotion appeared, that it was seen and then looked at with AE. Realising that any ‘past/present’ efforting, trying, wanting etc is not in anyone’s control, can bring different reactions.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Vikasana]

Thank you for next exersize with drinks. It's 1203 in the morning and I'm just checking for you messages and after a long day and I'm going to bed. I will try to do it before work tomorrow at 0900 or if not during work possibly or most likely evening when I return at 2000 and I will get back to you tomorrow evening. No need to reply to this. Thanks Patrick.

[Vikasana]

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

1) There wasn't any 'choosing' of the qualities. They appeared by themselves. There wasn't any 'choosing' of preferences. They popped up by them selves.

2) There wasn't any 'choosing' the sequence of events. There wasn't any 'choosing' to shut down preferences to give way to the counting. There wasn't a direct experience of a mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'. No this function in action wasn't seen.

3) There was no witnessing or direct experience of a mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'. Nothing arose that announced 'I am the chooser'.

There is no 'I' choosing. A feeling cannot 'choose'. There is nothing in the nature of a feeling to 'choose'.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

The last two exercises we have looked at the idea of control, decisions and choices. These ideas are what seemingly create the idea of there being a 'doer' who is 'doing'. So now let’s bring it all home now...to really see through the idea of control, choice etc and have a look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[Vikasana]

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

The seeing cannot be turned off to the right, left or 'black space'. What is seen cannot NOT be seen.

Seeing cannot be turned off.

There is no chooser or 'self' choosing.

There isn't anything else to choose in the moment of awareness.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Patrick,

Okay...let's move onto looking at the idea of the body.


Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes or more if necessary.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Thank you for latest body exersize kay.

Is it ok with you to spend the weekend looking at it and then get back to you?

Have a good weekend.

With love Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

By all means! Have a lovely weekend and have fun with the exercise.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay. Thanks for a bit more time. Sorry for delay. Hope you're well.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

In actual experience of sensation it cannot be know how tall the body is or whether the body has a weight or volume or whether the body has a shape or form.

In actual experience of sensation there isn't a boundary between body and clothing or between body and chair.

In actual experience of sensation there's isn't an inside or outside.

The word/label 'body' is simply actual experience of thought. 'Body' is just labelling actual experiences of colours and shapes and sensations, so there is no ACTUAL experience of the body, just actual experiences of sensations and colours and shapes.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Patrick,

The word/label 'body' is simply actual experience of thought. 'Body' is just labelling actual experiences of colours and shapes and sensations, so there is no ACTUAL experience of the body, just actual experiences of sensations and colours and shapes.

Spot on...yes! There is no AE of a body, the AE of a body is thought. Thought infers that colour and sensations are a body.

Okay, here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[Vikasana]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Hi Kay. Sorry again for delay. Here are my responses to latest exersize:

-There's no connection between felt sensations and mirror image.
-There's no connection between felt sensations labelled 'hand' and image of movement in mirror.
-There's no connection between felt sensation labelled 'hand' and 'image of movement'.
-The image by itself doesn't suggest 'you' or 'your body' or that there is a 'body' at all. there is only colours and shapes.
-By mirror image there isn't any 'knowledge of there must be legs.
-There are only sensations when turning away from mirror. There is no 'body'.
-There is no 'body walking', only sensations. There isn't actual experience of 'walking'. A 'body' cannot be found. 'Body' just a label. 'Walking' cannot be found.
-There is only an image labelled 'room' and only sensations without location.

Thank you Kay.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

So from when we started this thread to now....what has shifted for you?

Kay

[Vikasana]

So from when we started this thread to now....what has shifted for you?

Hi Kay. With help of your guidance I've noticed some shifts as follows:

-This week twice I've just sat in a chair to not get up for at least half an hour and to do little and felt 'contented' sensation/energy and then naturally seem to move towards looking at experience or just noticing sensations. (Thoughts of being held by something).
-This morning asking 'what is emptiness'. A Buddhist concept I'm sure you're aware of.
-Yesterday noticing thoughts to try and to push through resistance a bit.
-Yesterday going to one of my favourite parts of Cambridge for a famous walk through meadows by river and a tea in an orchard cafe and meditating/looking at experience whilst sat in a deckchair. Basically doing something more nourishing rather than turning to addictive behaviour.
-A bit more impetus to sit in the morning before work. Plus the odd sit in the evening which is something I've had thoughts to do to do for considerable time. So a little less resistance.
-The other day managing not to eat after lunchtime until the following morning which is something I've had thoughts about doing for a month or two but not followed through until other day.
-Boxing my television and getting it out for a couple of programs per week.
- A bit longer periods of sobriety from sexually addictive behaviour on internet. Addictive behaviour can manifest in other ways such as watching tv, staying up late, eating, etc.
-More confidence as secretary of addiction meeting and willingness to reach out to newcomers.
-Less resentment and more amiable and less separation. Such as standing in a queue open to others in the queue. The other day more open to smiling in a group I attend.
-A bit more patience in queues.
-A bit less dependency on Buddhist centre.
-Thoughts I may have harmed others by my past actions of resentment rather than blaming them. More shame yet less guilt.
-My manager said in my recent appraisal I seemed more focused and in line with the team. I told her I was less in my own bubble and apologised for past belligerence.
--Thoughts of there are tools which work if one engages with them.
-Thoughts about something which has suddenly arisen at work as a possible opportunity to do a learning disability nursing degree course and a fast tracked course.

What I'm struggling with lately is addictive type behaviour of going to bed late such as 0100. Which doesn't set me up well to meditate/look next day. A tendency to seek addictive stimulation rather than rest or meditate/look at experience. I am close to completing step four of addiction program but there's some resistance there and a later step is apologizing to those harmed by frustration, irritability and blaming others which I feel resistant to also, so there may be conceit/pride there as I don't have to wait until completing other steps to apologize. Although these are labels.

With love and appreciation Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

It seems that you have an expectation that exploring and seeing through the illusory self will change the illusory self. How can something that is an idea - a thought -change? This exploration is not about improving a separate self that isn’t. It is to realise that there is no such thing as a separate independent entity/self that is the controller, doer, thinker, feeler or sayer! It seems with all the pointing and exercises done to date that you haven’t been exploring to see that there is no separate self, so I don’t know what you have been exploring. We have looked at the idea of there being a thinker of thought, a controller, a chooser, a decider and looked at the idea of the body…and you have responded that you can’t find any of those and …and yet you still want an illusory self to change. I have to question your reasoning for being at LU.

Exploring the illusory self in tandem with your addiction program as a means to get rid of addictions and so called inappropriate behaviours and thoughts is not what LU is about. Perhaps LU is not a place for you to be at the moment, but is something you can look at after you have done your program. It's somewhat a contradiction trying to break habits and behaviours of what you are considering as 'you' the person and trying to see through the idea of 'you' the person. I think for you, at this moment, it is important that you do your addiction program.

Please read information in the following link to what LU is NOT about.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I appreciate that you feel that life has gotten easier/better for you, but at the risk of being a broken record…this isn't about feeling better about an illusion. Seeing through the illusory self, paradoxically can bring about changes to the seeming character but there is no controlling what those changes are. Could you find a controller when you did the palm exercise? Life is constant motion of change...but what is it exactly that is changing? When I asked you what has shifted for you….I was asking about shifts in perception about the idea of the illusory self and what life is and not about changes to an illusory self that isn’t.

With love, Kay