Cutting through the paradox

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:31 am

That's really weird and more than a bit annoying. It's happened a couple of times now.
Are they random most of the time? Or all of the time? Do you think about a label "car" every time you hear that thing called car? Or is it random? Sometimes that follows and sometimes it doesn't?
Random all the time. It goes where you "think" it should go but when you really watch it the thoughts just pop out wherever they want to. you just "think" it makes sense after the fact.
What is noticed as you become more aware of the randomness?
I'm not in control of it. The thoughts just happen....
Pop out of nowhere.
Have random purpose or direction.
Go back to nowhere.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:01 pm

Hi Ossie,

All right answers - and are you able to relax & LOOK?

Remember:
Before I was trying hard, but during I was relaxed. It was certainly unexpected and not the direct result of my trying. . . .

Short answer – relaxed.
This effort below will keep you from SEEING:
I keep trying to explain it and intellectualise by giving examples (like music but I deleted it) but I know that is part of myself thinking and taking credit.
There is an exercise I'd like for you to try.

We've seen that thoughts just arise and that their content means nothing. We gave it that meaning in an attempt to communicate, but it really amounts to absolutely nothing. This exercise is about looking for the space, the place, from which thoughts arise. Remember! Like all of these exercises, it is the LOOKING that matters, NOT something called "right answer."

In fact, if you LOOKED and saw and found yourself in that clear place of seeing no self and never posted again, that would be better than a million "right answers." Of course, I'd like to know and hear about it, but this isn't for me, this is for ... well, something we will call "you."

It has been shown for at least about 30 years that we are not aware when we make a decision or have a thought. There is a lag. Up to 2 seconds, which is a long time. So WHO is doing this thing called "thinking?" Not us! Thoughts arise. Then we make up a story that some thing called "I" had some thing we are calling a "thought." By the time we are telling this story, the thought is gone . . . to wherever they go.

In this exercise, instead of following thought or seeing the gaps between thoughts or trying to stop thought, we are going to relax into noticing that "space," for lack of a better word, from which thoughts arise. This requires a LOT of relaxation and allowing.

Sit quietly. Notice thoughts arising and leaving, arising and leaving, somewhat as you did before. Then either notice one of them or throw in some thought of your own, like "elephant" or something.

Instead of trying to follow the thought, track it backwards to where that thought began. And then go one more step, to the place before that thought began. Relaxing now, just REST in the space where thoughts arise. When another thought arises, track it back again, relaxing and noticing the place from which thoughts arise. Again, REST in the space from which thoughts arise. Do this as many times as you like, RESTING each time until some other thought arises and track it back again, relaxing in that space again from which thoughts arise.

Then after doing this several times, notice - does that "place" from which thoughts arise have any size? Any shape? Is there any edge to it? On any side? Up, down? Left? Right? Backwards? Forwards? Can you find any edge?

Is there a time when that space did not exist? Is there any time in which it will not exist? Just check.
Track another thought back. Does the place care what the content of that thought is? Or does it just arise and leave? Rest in that place. Let your entire body rest in that place from which thoughts arise.

Just keep following thoughts back and then one more step, relaxing there where thoughts arise.

Do it until you feel "done."


Repeat this a few times. Don't shortchange yourself by doing it too quickly or too few times. Luxuriate in that relaxation in the place that is found, before thought arises.

Let me know what arises.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:07 am

Hi,
This requires a LOT of relaxation and allowing.

Sit quietly. Notice thoughts arising and leaving, arising and leaving, somewhat as you did before. Then either notice one of them or throw in some thought of your own, like "elephant" or something.

Instead of trying to follow the thought, track it backwards to where that thought began. And then go one more step, to the place before that thought began. Relaxing now, just REST in the space where thoughts arise. When another thought arises, track it back again, relaxing and noticing the place from which thoughts arise. Again, REST in the space from which thoughts arise. Do this as many times as you like, RESTING each time until some other thought arises and track it back again, relaxing in that space again from which thoughts arise.

Then after doing this several times, notice - does that "place" from which thoughts arise have any size? Any shape? Is there any edge to it? On any side? Up, down? Left? Right? Backwards? Forwards? Can you find any edge?

Is there a time when that space did not exist? Is there any time in which it will not exist? Just check.
Track another thought back. Does the place care what the content of that thought is? Or does it just arise and leave? Rest in that place. Let your entire body rest in that place from which thoughts arise.

Just keep following thoughts back and then one more step, relaxing there where thoughts arise.

Do it until you feel "done."

Repeat this a few times. Don't shortchange yourself by doing it too quickly or too few times. Luxuriate in that relaxation in the place that is found, before thought arises.
Let me know what arises.
I think I need to spend a little more time on this one. I “know” the answers but don’t really SEE them. I think I’m expecting too much and not allowing it to happen on its own.

There is the silence and peace in the space between and I usually get a smile on my face but I don’t rest in that space but get taken away by the next thought.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:23 am

Great, trust that & do it as much as you like.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:14 pm

This is beautiful! Just keep returning to this. Yes, REST in it.
There is the silence and peace in the space between and I usually get a smile on my face but I don’t rest in that space but get taken away by the next thought.
That's okay. So what if another thought arises? Just track it back again. Then REST again.

You are doing just fine.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:27 pm

Good morning, Ossie,

Just checking in before the weekend. Tomorrow will be pretty busy for me, probably.

How is it going? Are you relaxing into resting in that space you are finding? And relaxing again after another thought arises?

Finding any edge?

Finding any time in which that space does not exist?


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:14 am

Good morning, Ossie,

Just checking in before the weekend. Tomorrow will be pretty busy for me, probably.

Thanks for letting me know. Hopefully a good kind of busy.
How is it going? Are you relaxing into resting in that space you are finding? And relaxing again after another thought arises?
The relaxing part is very difficult. I get taken away by the thoughts and drag myself back. Probably trying too hard to not try hard!
Finding any edge?

Finding any time in which that space does not exist?
I tried the elephant thing and it was sort of like any other thought, just comes and goes, nothing to nothing.

This morning I had a bizarre thought for a new idea or invention to do an everyday thing differently to how it has been done for probably decades or longer. I knew it could not be from "me" because it came from nothing I had thought of before or been sparked from anything I'd heard or seen (even elephant was from a spark from you even though it was unusual it was also predictable).

It came from "out there" so i followed it back. There is no edge because it is bigger than having an edge. Infinite is too small a word. It is not a space because space is limited to what we think a space is but it contains all space.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:56 pm

Good morning!

Yes a good kind of busy. I'd chat, but I don't want to distract from the focus at hand.

It sounds like you're doing a great job and you're spending plenty of time at it.
The relaxing part is very difficult. I get taken away by the thoughts and drag myself back. Probably trying too hard to not try hard!
I think the key is to relax during the thought. Just let the thought go by. It's okay.

Having thoughts Is Not a Bad Thing. Most of the time we will have thoughts.

Just let them go. Relax in the presence of thoughts. Can you imagine how relaxed you would be if you learned to relax in the presence of thoughts?
It came from "out there" so i followed it back. There is no edge because it is bigger than having an edge. Infinite is too small a word. It is not a space because space is limited to what we think a space is but it contains all space.
Excellent! It can happen that we get more creative as we relax!

What about time? Was there any time in which this space did not exist?

I like the sound of how this is working for you. Keep relaxing! I'll reply soon as I can.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:33 am

What about time? Was there any time in which this space did not exist?
Just a quick reply to this question. No need to reply - just keep busy with your own stuff (I'm sure you have a life outside this!).

From the SEEing last time... There is no time, no space, no thing.

It is not any of these things and these things cannot be used to describe it. I don't think I can describe it because even timeless is not right because there is time but no beginning or end to the time and all time is within it but there is no "time" that anything happens. The same can be applied to space and probably things as well. That's the best I can do.

I'll go back to trying hard not to try so hard to relax, and report back.
:)

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:32 pm

I'll go back to trying hard not to try so hard to relax, and report back.
:)
Had to laugh. Yes, and remember Yoda!

Love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:20 am

Relaxation come not.

I think I'll give up on this relaxation lark. But I'm writing to let you know what happened this morning and I'll write in a way to let you know the sequence, as much so I get it down to understand it when I read it back....

Lying in bed after waking, relaxing (but obviously not enough to satisfy me) and going through the exercises. Thoughts come and go and I watch them and then occasionally watch for the spaces or follow them back to where they came from. Mostly the thoughts grab my attention and drag me along with them then I remember and watch again.

I remembered and old catch phrase of mine which helped a lot quite a while ago - "Watch The Watcher".

So I watched me watching the thoughts. If you like I had my attention on my attention or you might say I was LOOKing at the SEEing. This is where it got interesting and unexpected. I was watching me watch the thoughts and it was like there was a torch (or maybe flashlight to Americans) which was being directed to different areas. There are so many sensations and thoughts being generated every second the torch is needed to make sense of them. The torch would shine on a thought (occasionally being turned off as the thought took control) and then it would shine on a sensation then shine on nothingness and then a thought again and so on.

I've always held that I have no free will at all because I am a bundle of programmed reactions. My only will or choice is where I direct my attention (shine the torch). The next thought was "But who is this I directing my attention if Stacy says there is no I?". I was going to write this to ask your thoughts but my next thought was "Go deeper and follow that thought back to where it came from". So I did.

The torch seemed to be randomly directed just as thoughts are randomly generated. I also could not find a location for the director of the torch. It just happened. I don't even control my attention. It just happens but I believe it is me controlling it just as long ago I believed I controlled my physical reactions.

I just happen? Do I just believe I control my attention? Do I just believe in me?

And you ask me to relax!!! Phooey.

I will investigate further.

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:22 am

Relaxation come not.

I think I'll give up on this relaxation lark. But I'm writing to let you know what happened this morning and I'll write in a way to let you know the sequence, as much so I get it down to understand it when I read it back....

Lying in bed after waking, relaxing (but obviously not enough to satisfy me) and going through the exercises. Thoughts come and go and I watch them and then occasionally watch for the spaces or follow them back to where they came from. Mostly the thoughts grab my attention and drag me along with them then I remember and watch again.

I remembered and old catch phrase of mine which helped a lot quite a while ago - "Watch The Watcher".

So I watched me watching the thoughts. If you like I had my attention on my attention or you might say I was LOOKing at the SEEing. This is where it got interesting and unexpected. I was watching me watch the thoughts and it was like there was a torch (or maybe flashlight to Americans) which was being directed to different areas. There are so many sensations and thoughts being generated every second the torch is needed to make sense of them. The torch would shine on a thought (occasionally being turned off as the thought took control) and then it would shine on a sensation then shine on nothingness and then a thought again and so on.

I've always held that I have no free will at all because I am a bundle of programmed reactions. My only will or choice is where I direct my attention (shine the torch). The next thought was "But who is this I directing my attention if Stacy says there is no I?". I was going to write this to ask your thoughts but my next thought was "Go deeper and follow that thought back to where it came from". So I did.

The torch seemed to be randomly directed just as thoughts are randomly generated. I also could not find a location for the director of the torch. It just happened. I don't even control my attention. It just happens but I believe it is me controlling it just as long ago I believed I controlled my physical reactions.

I just happen? Do I just believe I control my attention? Do I just believe in me?

And you ask me to relax!!! Phooey.

I will investigate further.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:44 am

Hi!

Are you having fun? I am.
The torch seemed to be randomly directed just as thoughts are randomly generated. I also could not find a location for the director of the torch. It just happened. I don't even control my attention. It just happens but I believe it is me controlling it just as long ago I believed I controlled my physical reactions.
Yes. No free will. No control. So, why not relax?
I just happen? Do I just believe I control my attention? Do I just believe in me?

And you ask me to relax!!! Phooey.
Yeah. It's true. You can't decide to relax. So maybe when you notice that you're relaxed, do the exercise. Like you did lying in bed.

You are LOOKING. You are heading in the right direction, so to speak.
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

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ossie123
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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby ossie123 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:46 am

Are you having fun? I am.
Hey, not my fault you are a sadist.
Yes. No free will. No control. So, why not relax?
Great question. I don’t think I want to believe what I see. How do I not believe me when there is no me to believe? I am fighting it but then how do I stop fighting it when I have no control over the fighting.

Yeah, yeah, I can already hear you telling me to stop fighting the fighting and just relax into it. Don’t you give up?

Yeah. It's true. You can't decide to relax. So maybe when you notice that you're relaxed, do the exercise. Like you did lying in bed.

You are LOOKING. You are heading in the right direction, so to speak.
I can’t head in the right direction but the right direction can happen. No, there is no “right” direction (which is just a random thought) there is only direction so I can’t stop it or start it but just watch it from nowhere.

Hmmmm, I need to relax.

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Re: Cutting through the paradox

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:29 pm

For there being no Ossie, she is just HILARIOUS. And you're right! You clearly have the theory and the words and some prior experience. Admittedly, that does get in the way. Nothing to be done about that.

Nope, I don't give up. Yep, I suppose I'm a see-no-self sadist. ;)

Let's make a bit of a distinction between what we call I/me/self and just Life life-ing or Awareness.

I refrain from using "consciousness" because it has so much baggage these days. Where I live, in Boulder, Colorado, you can buy Conscious Coffee, learn Conscious Entrepreneurship, have Conscious Relationships, on and on ad nauseam. I picture little Pac-Man faces pouring into my Conscious Coffee cup that has a face a la Alice in Wonderland. But before all that came about, consciousness was a pretty good word for it, too, when we have to use words.

The point is:

Yes, there is some kind of awareness thingy, but does that mean that there is a "me/self/I?"

How about those edges of "I?" Find any, yet?


Remember, it is the relaxed looking that matters. Maybe it will help if you just act like you don't care.

Kind of like in "Illusions," have you read it? When he is trying to learn to fly, it happens when he least expects it, but the attempts mattered.

It's tempting to give you another exercise. The thought arose that you must be tired of this one, but the next thought that arose suggested that being tired of it might actually help!

I'll post another soon and see what arises to do, ok?

Signed,
Stacy, your own personal Consciousness Sadist
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


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