The Gate

Hi James

. It seems like there is progress, but then I ask "who is making progress" - progress is just happening I want to answer - there is a sense that the "understanding" (for lack of a better word) is sitting in the peripheral vision but there's not the sense of which way to turn to see it clearly

Your whole post is interesting. The noting technique is great, isnt it?

But the above statement is particularly interesting

You could tweak this approach a little. Instead of asking 'who' (which carries within it an idea of a someone, a person), ask 'what is making progress'?

Could you say a little more about how it seems 'understanding is sitting in peripheral vision'?

Might it be that all directions are equally clear...or equally illusory?

Jon

Hello Jon:

Thanks - hopefully "interesting" in a way that is leaning toward liberation? :)

Could you say a little more about how it seems 'understanding is sitting in peripheral vision'?

Might it be that all directions are equally clear...or equally illusory?

There is a feeling like liberation is not far away and there's glimpses of it (understanding and experiencing that there is nobody to feel the feelings that happen, they just are and therefore attachment is unnecessary). Almost like when you get a "sunspot" in your eye and when you try to look directly at it, it moves but you can still "see" it if you don't look (there's a metaphor in there, for sure)

You could tweak this approach a little. Instead of asking 'who' (which carries within it an idea of a someone, a person), ask 'what is making progress'?

Yes, definitely - the statement could be simply that "progress is being made" without having to attach it to anything. The same could be said of any emotion, really.

So, joy is happening, frustration is happening, peace is happening - let it happen, know that it is impermanent, and let life continue to live without trying to force it (which is impossible anyway) in any particular direction.

Hi James,

There is a feeling like liberation is not far away and there's glimpses of it (understanding and experiencing that there is nobody to feel the feelings that happen, they just are and therefore attachment is unnecessary)

Great. Unecessary yes. How about illusory? Part of a narrative about 'someone' that is 'attached'?

So, joy is happening, frustration is happening, peace is happening - let it happen, know that it is impermanent, and let life continue to live without trying to force it (which is impossible anyway) in any particular direction.

Lovely statement.

In light of this do you find that the drive for working things out mentally, needing an explanation beyond what is happening immediately, or theory of 'how things are' is waning?

Is it clear that all narratives are stories ABOUT 'how things are' or 'how things should be'? And that what's happening here and now is never that?

All the best,

Jon

How about illusory? Part of a narrative about 'someone' that is 'attached'?

Correct - a shift in perspective. Taking it from the idea that not only is attachment unnecessary (as that would require an "I") it is also not possible - just, as you said, part of the story.

In light of this do you find that the drive for working things out mentally, needing an explanation beyond what is happening immediately, or theory of 'how things are' is waning?

Yes, actually, it's surprising that I haven't even really thought about that before you mentioned it. There is less of a need to have an explanation as opposed to accepting what "is".

Is it clear that all narratives are stories ABOUT 'how things are' or 'how things should be'? And that what's happening here and now is never that?

Can you elaborate on the second part, please? I'm not sure I understand...

Thanks, Jon!

James

Hi James,

. Yes, actually, it's surprising that I haven't even really thought about that before you mentioned it. There is less of a need to have an explanation as opposed to accepting what "is".

Wonderful.

Is it clear that all narratives are stories ABOUT 'how things are' or 'how things should be'? And that what's happening here and now is never that?
Can you elaborate on the second part, please? I'm not sure I understand...

Maybe the wsy I phrased it.

Well, you mentioned accepting what 'is'. That is everything that is happening in the moment.

But thoughts can appear with all sorts of ideas about things that are not really happening, or ideas about how things might happen, should happen, should not happen, have happened or will happen...and so on and so forth. As well as referencing an illusory self!

Is it clear that this is all thought-story

Jon

Is it clear that this is all thought-story

Gotcha. Yes, it is but it does not quite feel automatic - in more serene times it’s much easier to “see” that is the case however when challenges come up (feelings of feeling slighted, for example) it takes some thinking and reminding internally. Does that make sense? Like being still during meditation I suspect it will be automatic in time as years of “habit and programming “ fall away.

Thoughts?

Hi James,

. Gotcha. Yes, it is but it does not quite feel automatic - in more serene times it’s much easier to “see” that is the case however when challenges come up (feelings of feeling slighted, for example) it takes some thinking and reminding internally. Does that make sense?

Yes it does. Do you notice how much more noisy thoughts become under such circumstances?

If possible, notice this. Then having to use mental reminders will not really be needed. Because the midst of all those 'me' announcements is an great place to investigate the illusion of self.

Any time 'I' is noisily or even subtly proclaimed is an immediate opportunity for 'seeing'.

. Like being still during meditation I suspect it will be automatic in time as years of “habit and programming “ fall away.

Yes and there has been a lot of that since childhood so it could take some time to shed, but the important thing is to have dislodged the tap root of imagining that there is a separate, unchanging self.

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of self?

Jon

Do you feel that you have seen through the illusion of self?

Hmmm that’s a great question. I think I have, yes. There’s still the feeling of not wanting to venture too far from the edge of the pool. Which is also part of the story narrative - part of the conditioning. Again, I suspect this will fall off in time as well.

Hi James,

. Hmmm that’s a great question. I think I have, yes. There’s still the feeling of not wanting to venture too far from the edge of the pool. Which is also part of the story narrative - part of the conditioning. Again, I suspect this will fall off in time as well.

Good. Ok, I have a few questions that may help

Is there a self here right now?

Jon

Hello, Jon.

Is there a self here right now?

Not that can be found - it's not the physical body, it's not in the brain, there is nothing tangible I can point to

Hello James,

Ok. Thank you. Here are several questions. Please feel free to answer them two or three at a time if you wish. And each time, from immediate experience,:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

See how you get on with these? If any doubts or confusion arises don't worry. We can easily work together to take a look.

All best

Jon

Hello:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is not - the habitual thinking would like to point to one and say that there is but that is not true and the result of years of conditioning. No, there never was an "I" - just an illusion with tons of labels attached to it.

Just thought of this: It's like the "invisible man" being covered with bumper stickers containing adjectives like "handsome", "skinny", "fat", "silly", etc - you can suddenly "see" the invisible man because he's covered in these stickers and those stickers (labels) give him "form". Pretty clever, eh? :) But he's not really "there"....just an illusion

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is just that - an illusion that "I" am (INSERT LABEL). It is the belief or thought that there is an "I" lurking behind the controls of this body making me do this or that as opposed to life living itself. It starts when we are born, essentially. We are told, conditioned, programmed, or what have you to believe that "we" are a certain way. These labels are reinforced and eventually become self-fulfilling prophecies - we accommodate and adjust to these labels because, after all, the people we look up to (mom and dad, teachers, etc) tell us that we are these things and they must be correct.

We then reinforce the "I" and the feeling of a separate self by conforming or rebelling against these ideas which make the "I" even stronger, one way or another.

I do want to take a few at a time as I'd like your feedback as we go along rather than writing a novel and trying to digest everything at once....

So I will address the next few after I get your thoughts....

Thanks!

Thank you.

Some nice answers there. In Qu2 you say:

. It is the belief or thought that there is an "I" lurking behind the controls of this body making me do this or that as opposed to life living itself.

Ok. What about the 'me' that is made to do this or that? What or where is that one?

. We then reinforce the "I" and the feeling of a separate self by conforming or rebelling against these ideas which make the "I" even stronger, one way or another.

Confirming and rebelling happen, underscoring the idea of 'I' and that 'someone does this'. but is there , was there ever that 'someone'?

Jon

Thanks, Jon

Ok. What about the 'me' that is made to do this or that? What or where is that one?

This was a convention of language - I could have said "this body".

It is interesting, however, how entangled the language of "I" is even at the thought level. In your estimation, is the language (internal or external) indicative of how much a person understands "no-self"? Just as "catching" the mind wandering and guiding it back, the guess is that this internal language changes with repetition and further understanding

Confirming and rebelling happen, underscoring the idea of 'I' and that 'someone does this'. but is there , was there ever that 'someone'?

Much like above, this was typed without much thought going into the language used - So, again, habits.....

Hi James,

This was a convention of language - I could have said "this body".

Yes, I guessed it was but needed to just check. Thanks.

It is interesting, however, how entangled the language of "I" is even at the thought level. I

Yes! Very entangled. The assumption of the existence of a separate self is enshrined within the structure of language.

In your estimation, is the language (internal or external) indicative of how much a person understands "no-self"?

Sometimes its very clear that there is or is not a seeing of no self, by the way language is used. But of course if someone really wanted to do it they could lie, read it from a book, pretend not to see. But the more someone talks about it the more likely that anything like this would be exposed.

Just as "catching" the mind wandering and guiding it back, the guess is that this internal language changes with repetition and further understanding

Do you find that there is some natural interest in noticing thoughts these days and what thoughts are 'saying'?

Ok...onward with remaining questions, when you're ready?

Jon