I feel ready want truth without comprimise

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

Look very carefully. Where does ‘seeing’ end and colour begin? Can a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and colour be found? Or is there just seeing/colour?

No dividing line can be found anywhere!!

Nice! Sit in a chair somewhere quiet and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and start to notice just the ‘body’, the chair, floor, rugs, furniture and walls. Without thought, all there is, is colour which thought then labels as clothes, or body, chair, wall etc (we are only looking at colour for this exercise).

Now look carefully.
1. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘body’ and the colour labelled ‘chair’ be found?
2. Is there a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘chair’ and the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’?
3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’ and colour labelled ‘furniturel’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’ and the ‘furniture’ or is there just simply colour
3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug and furniture’ and the colour labelled ‘wall’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’, ‘furniture’ and the ‘wall’ or is there just simply colour?
What do you find?

Is there an actual dividing line between any of these “colourS” or are they just simply seamless colour which thought divides into ‘things’ and further divides in into many different colourS and labels them as pink, black, yellow, green etc?

Is there such a thing as “space” or “distance”?

Is there an actual body/you sitting in a chair, or all there is, is colour?

Can a 'see-er' ever be found in 'what is being seen' – AE colour?

No, there seems to at times be a temporary feeling of "I am seeing" but that is just a thought and it goes away.

Yes, nice!

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

It appears so because every single thing comes and goes all the time. AE seemingly unfolds on its own in some endless continuum. The SEE-ER can't be found, it is just a thought that comes and goes.

Yes! Nothing thinks. Thoughts just appear without authorship or doer-ship, and people are not aware of thoughts, as 'people' is just another thought appearing without authorship or doer-ship, as the is thought “I/me”.

Is there anything that is witnessing colour?

No, the witness is never found anywhere, what is simply is. The experience is just one thing and all its differences are just thoughts.

Is the ‘see-er’ of the seen actually separate from the seen, or is it all a singular experience?
It is a single experience, seeing cannot occur without color and color cannot appear without being seen. That does not mean there has to be a see-er. A see-er cannot be found anywhere.

Seeing and knowing are one and the same. Seeing of colour and seeing of seeing are one and the same = colour.

Is there not a knowing of everything that is happening/appearing from moment to moment? Even the knowing of the appearance of the story of colour being a world? Is there not a knowing of/as “all the random thoughts that come and go” and of every ‘thing’ else that appears from moment to moment. Can anything be unknown or hidden?

Unknown and hidden are dependent dependant on the existence of a knower and a seeker. No knower and seeker can be found so nothing can be unknown or hidden without something to know it or hide from it.

Beautiful, Eric…exactly! And since there is no separation, then how can anything be hidden or unknown? Are there separate objects to be known? Or is the ‘show’ self-aware? Does knowingknown/experience itself need taste, for example to know itself, or sound, or colour to know itself.

Kay

[majiinx]

1. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘body’ and the colour labelled ‘chair’ be found?

No

2. Is there a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘chair’ and the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’?

No

3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug’ and colour labelled ‘furniturel’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’ and the ‘furniture’ or is there just simply colour

No

3. Can a dividing line between the colour labelled ‘floor/rug and furniture’ and the colour labelled ‘wall’ be found? Is there ‘space’ between ‘floor/rug’, ‘furniture’ and the ‘wall’ or is there just simply colour?
What do you find?

No dividing line can be found, nor can any space be found.

Is there an actual dividing line between any of these “colourS” or are they just simply seamless colour which thought divides into ‘things’ and further divides in into many different colourS and labels them as pink, black, yellow, green etc?

No dividing line can be found, only thoughts of separate objects that come and go. Everything just seamlessly flows together, something not blending in or being out of place is just a thought. For instance I am in my basement which is "messy" because we are storing stuff for house repairs here. The basement being "messy" or "objects" not belonging here are simply thoughts with no real substance to them.

Is there such a thing as “space” or “distance”?

I have been contemplating this A LOT as of late, especially when driving. Distance and space are just a though! "I am 10 feet away from a mirror" is a thought, if I am driving and I am 100 feet away from an exit, that is just a thought.

Is there an actual body/you sitting in a chair, or all there is, is colour?

LOL! OMG the entire time I was here there was no sense of body until I read this line. The body or sense of having a body seems to come and go as much as thoughts.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Eric,

Nice looking :)

Is there such a thing as “space” or “distance”?

I have been contemplating this A LOT as of late, especially when driving. Distance and space are just a though! "I am 10 feet away from a mirror" is a thought, if I am driving and I am 100 feet away from an exit, that is just a thought.

You can continue experimenting with this exercise if you like.

Lay on your back, relax. Have a look at the ceiling. There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as body and that what is labeled ceiling.
Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look/sense. Keep the eyes shut.

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?


Thought would suggest that these two trees are separated by distance, by space between them. Is there really a gap, a distance between the ‘trees’? What is the AE of ‘gap/distance’ between the trees?





Have a look at the following picture. Thought says that the door is open and that there is space between the edge of the door that is seen and the wall behind the door. But is there?



Now, go open your front door like it is in this picture and have a look. Is the open door actually taking up ‘space’? And is there ‘space’ between door and the wall behind the door? What is actual experience?

Is there an actual body/you sitting in a chair, or all there is, is colour?

LOL! OMG the entire time I was here there was no sense of body until I read this line. The body or sense of having a body seems to come and go as much as thoughts.

Haha! Nice realisation!

A good time to have a look at the body!

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[majiinx]

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

Just the AE of seeing the color labeled black.

Now, go open your front door like it is in this picture and have a look. Is the open door actually taking up ‘space’? And is there ‘space’ between door and the wall behind the door? What is actual experience?

Space cannot be found, there is just the AE of seeing color.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form

In AE, nothing is implied about the bodies shape and form.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is no boundary with anything.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

There is nothing within the AE to imply anything of being outside or inside. Other than thoughts of being inside, as opposed to outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label "body" is just a serious of thoughts and feelings that both arise and fall. In fact, we cannot even say there is a feeling that we can even label a feeling of having a body. Just random feelings and thoughts, associated with random body parts that come and go.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?

Just the AE of seeing the color labeled black.

What is it exactly that is “seeing the colour labelled black”?
Is there seeing AND black? Where does seeing end and colour begin?

Now, go open your front door like it is in this picture and have a look. Is the open door actually taking up ‘space’? And is there ‘space’ between door and the wall behind the door? What is actual experience?

Space cannot be found, there is just the AE of seeing color.

Yes, there is no AE of space, the AE of space is thought. Thought points to colour and labels it 'space'.
Is there seeing of seeing and seeing of colour, or is seeing of colour and seeing of seeing one and the same = colour?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

There is nothing within the AE to imply anything of being outside or inside. Other than thoughts of being inside, as opposed to outside.

So can there be a me ‘in here’ and everything else ‘out there’?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label "body" is just a serious of thoughts and feelings that both arise and fall. In fact, we cannot even say there is a feeling that we can even label a feeling of having a body. Just random feelings and thoughts, associated with random body parts that come and go.

The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ is actual experience of thought. So the AE of ‘the body’ is simply thought.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric...you still with me?

Kay

[majiinx]

Hello, yes I am sorry it took so long. I got extremely ill and qas bed ridden so I could not get to my computer. I am getting better so I can continue soon. I also did a great deal of inquiry during that time and came to some insights which i will explain when i can get on my computer.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

Get well soon :)

Kay

[majiinx]

Thank you for your patience and understanding. The good news is, that during that period of time that I was sick, great progress has been made. And I use the word progress loosely since I consider this process to be more of a positive regression.

"I" can say with the utmost honesty that "I" simply have no control over anything. I can clearly see this regularly even when "I" arises, it can recognize it has no control and influence over anything. It's like a person swimming against a current when they realize that they are helpless to change its own course, and so finally they surrender and allow themselves to be pulled by the stream effortlessly. There simply is no need to swim against the current, it's pointless and futile, the stream moves on its own and it is ALWAYS moving in the right direction, even if the waters are rough at times. That is simply the best way "I" can explain what I am experiencing.

And even the "I" explaining is used loosely too. The words that are being typed now are part of that same stream and flow along it on their own, with no help whatsoever. No thinking needs to be done for this, I am watching this happen right now with no attachment or identification to what is going on. No need to try and figure out words come next, the words come on there own. Even in person, there is no need to think of what to say to people, the voice comes on its own with no direction.

Even the "seeker" is seen as a separate decision. For what and who is this person that seeks? This seeker doesn't even know what it's looking for. It gets told something and when it looks for it, it only ends up finding something else to look for and this cycle keeps repeating itself and brings itself to the exact same place. Any attempt to acquire knowledge of what it is simply futile and pointless. How can we know "reality" by reading books or learning from Yogis? Can a person know mount Everest by reading books? Watching movies? Talking to people that scaled it? No amount of books can ever express the actual experience of scaling Mount Everest.

Even the confusion that seemed to arise before seems to have gone away. For what is there to be confused about? The whole process has been happening and "I" has always been helpless to do anything with it. It is like the younger brother who wanted to play his big brothers Nintendo. The big brother relented to the little brother and allowed him to "play" Nintendo, but neglected to tell him that he merely handed him the 2nd controller and left it unplugged while he played the game. Of course in this instance, the little brother finally found out, but just laughed about it because it was a good run while it lasted hahaha.

I don't even know where "I" am at. I'm no longer really considering anything progress or regress it seems like this whole process is unfolding on its own with no assistance. And that anything "I" try to do is just futile. I honestly don't know what to say anymore. I don't know what I can do. Even this longing for "truth" has all but gone away. Its like I am lost and have no idea where I am going, but at the same time, I really don't care. I feel very content and whole and there is very little tension at all in anything. It's like the mind has finally been seen for what it is, and now its nothing but distant background noise that hardly disturbs anything. I feel at such peace, its really wonderful. I don't know what more there is to realize, nor do I care I suppose if there is anything else to realize it was be realized on its own when it wants to be.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

Wow...what a great post to read! Realisation happens, when it happens...no "I" needed to do anything - it's very simple, isn't it! :)

What I will do, is give you the final questions. If there is anything that seems unclear, we can look at them then.

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you , rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for?
c) Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kay

[majiinx]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is not, nor were there ever. Even when "I" thought there was a self there really never was. How could it be? Every time "I" referred to I or myself it was something that was always different, there was no consistency ever. It was just simply identifying with the stories that were told to us by society.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate arises from the thoughts and feelings from me, myself and I. When we use these words we are identifying with a person who seems to be separate from the rest of the experience. Now it is seen to arise in relation to thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. For example, another "person" is seen falling and breaking there leg, then a feeling that we might refer to as "empathy arises" along with the thought "I feel bad for this person" and so arises an object which is the person who fell and broke there leg and a subject who is the person who feels bad for the separate person that broke there leg. And yet there is no real "I or "them" involved in the process. "People" fall and break there legs and "people" and the feeling of empathy arises. But no self is needed for these things to occur.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels surprisingly ordinary, its like I have had glimpses of this all my life but never really noticed until I really looked at the process. The difference now is that "I" am aware when this separate self arises and can see through it clearly. In fact, crumbles as soon as its noticed. Whereas before there would usually be some contemplation and questioning of what was seen. Or there would be this struggle that arose when the separate self existence was challenged. Now there is no challenge, no struggle just an acknowledgment and things go on. In fact, I can recall an instance where I was sitting on my couch and the thought "I want to play a video game arose" and yet the thought went nowhere, despite the lingering thought and desire, it seemed that no control could be imposed to make it happen, because there was no controller that could make it happen.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Hmmm, I can't say when it occurred I think it was a very quiet realization that was gradually being taken in and was seen over time. I would say though it was probably when I realized that there was no controller over anything that could be found. And realizing "I" was not in control seemed to let go over the idea that there was anything that could be done to change anything.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.

Honestly, I don't know how they work and I really mean that it literally seems that every part of my existence arises spontaneously without any decision, intention, free will or choice. This is something that I know through experience. For instance, I have been able to see that my entire morning happens on its own without any sense of self, intention, free will, choice or control. I wake up in the morning, meditate, shower put on clothes and drive to work without any of these things happening. And so I gradually came to understand that this is how all things happen.

A recent example, I went to a spiritual discussion group. Normally I would do a great deal of thinking, contemplating and talking. But this time I just sat and watched things unfound and when I was asked questions I saw them answered automatically without any thought or decision. We all spoke of being sick and people said how it lowered their vibes and really effected there mood. However, when I spoke I realized it had absolutely no effect on anything, there was the experience of being sick and that was all it was. It had no effect on anything as it was seen as something as temporary as a thought. The feeling of being sick seemed to also arise with "I". As there was no feeling of being sick that ever truly persisted. The feelings associated with being sick would come but when in deep contemplation or being emersed in tv or a book the feelings went away. And so if "I" was really sick wouldn't this feeling persist through the entirety of its duration?

b) What are you responsible for?

Good question, "I" cannot seem to figure that out LOL. As far as "I" know nothing.

c) Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

I think some of the examples above should explain it, but I will go a little further. I couldn't even begin to explain how it works it just somehow does. every single thing that occurs seems to do so spontaneously without a real rhyme or reason. Even actions taken by "I" just happen a book is picked up and read, a glass of water is picked up and drank, laying down and taking a nap just happens all without anybody behind the actions. No person, no self, no controller or doer the process just happens on its own. It is both strange and mysterious and at first, it was a little scary but now it's exciting as all good things happen. It seems that "I" does nothing but disturb the process, kind of like a passenger who grabs the wheel from the driver and tries to take control of the vehicle. The passenger is no position to control the vehicle and will just end up crashing it, with the severity of the crash varying of course. That is probably the best I can do to describe it.

6) Anything to add?

Just want to thank you for everything. I do not know if there is more to do or if I have no understood something properly but I trust that you will guide "me" and direct me if there is. I'm not sure if I am supposed to feel, experience or realize something but I do not seem to care much about that stuff anymore. I suppose that if something is to happen it just will, nothing I can really do it about it lol.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Eric,

What wonderful realisations you had around sickness, and it is through seeming the idea of sickness appearing that it is realised that there is no me ‘doing’ sickness!

No there is not, nor were there ever. Even when "I" thought there was a self there really never was. How could it be? Every time "I" referred to I or myself it was something that was always different, there was no consistency ever. It was just simply identifying with the stories that were told to us by society.

What exactly is it that “was just identifying with the stories”?

b) What are you responsible for?

Good question, "I" cannot seem to figure that out LOL. As far as "I" know nothing.

Is there a you who is the author of thought? Can anyone be found that is the controller of thought and controls what thought appears or when? If no author of thought can be found, then can there be anyone/anything that is responsible for anything?

Is there a you who is the ‘doer’? Is there anyone who is choosing, controlling, deciding what will be done and when, or, if indeed…anything will be done?

6) Anything to add?
Just want to thank you for everything. I do not know if there is more to do or if I have no understood something properly but I trust that you will guide "me" and direct me if there is. I'm not sure if I am supposed to feel, experience or realize something but I do not seem to care much about that stuff anymore.

If you so wished, however it is entirely up to you, we could look at the idea of the body, time and memory.

I suppose that if something is to happen it just will, nothing I can really do it about it lol.

Exactly! So is there a you who is responsible to whether something happens or not?

Kay

[majiinx]

What exactly is it that “was just identifying with the stories”?

Nothing is, just the stories that proceed the "I" thought and feeling. It's like "I" arises and a story follows it and the "I" and the story get tangled up in each other. But now they are both seen as just thoughts.

Is there a you who is the author of thought? Can anyone be found that is the controller of thought and controls what thought appears or when? If no author of thought can be found, then can there be anyone/anything that is responsible for anything?

Nope, there is no author or controller of thoughts. I saw through this very recently as well. There was this pleasant daydream playing out, then suddenly an "I" arose out of the daydream and really enjoyed the dream. The "I" then tried to replay the dream and make it even more pleasant and nothing happens at all. It was kind of funny actually because this is something that happens pretty often but we overlook it. When can we ever control or author our own thoughts? Its like one of the most straining and futile things "I" can try and do. If we really were our mind then surely we would be able to control the content of it like one would control the content of their smartphone or computer.

Is there a you who is the ‘doer’? Is there anyone who is choosing, controlling, deciding what will be done and when, or, if indeed…anything will be done?

Nope, not at all, not anywhere. I looked long and hard at it, even today at the gym I noticed while on the elliptical machine that there was no control mechanism making the movement happen. Nobody even to make the decision to get on the machine. The whole entire workout just unfolded on its own. No decision maker to decide what to do next or how many reps of each exercise to do.

If you so wished, however it is entirely up to you, we could look at the idea of the body, time and memory.

Yes, I would like to take this exploration to its deepest depths.

Exactly! So is there a you who is responsible to whether something happens or not?

Nope, there is no "I" period, let alone an "I" that is responsible for anything happening.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Eric,

Lovely responses...thank-you!

If you go back to this part in your thread...before you got sick..we can continue on from there :)

viewtopic.php?p=259014#p257419

Kay

[majiinx]

I will be answering these questions later on when I am at my computer (or so I hope) but i wanted to ask you a question.

How can I actually commit to doing anything? Most of the time I am so content that I sit down and do nothing and it is so peaceful. But there are I great many things that "I" would like to do such as improving my physical health and devoting more time to school work. Yet I feel powerless to act.

Also there is the lingering "seeker" who thinks there is more to realize, but has been seen to be nothing more then a thought. But it feels as though this thought is stuck in my subconscious mind and is somehow exerting influence over actions. Does this make any sense? If so what can actually be done about this?