Guiding beyond gate

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Anne,

thanks again for your answer.
It felt like armes being opened for me.

Cool. :)

I’d like to change the balance towards being more concious as a default and choosing self if i might need it.

Unlike seeing, being more conscious is a practice that becomes the norm, and a very lovely norm too. :)

Why would seeking to make it persistent indicate, that there is more to see?
Maybe seeking is just a story.
Or does seeking stop, when i saw everything that there is to see?

Because there is nothing to persist - seeking for persistence is based on the assumption of there being something persistable. With the exception of poor defending by Newcastle Utd, what persists?

Yes, i love that - possibilities and exploring.
In exploring you might get lost
but you also might find something that is new.

Getting lost is a good way to discover something new. :)

Ok, that is very relieving.
There were enough goals i tried to achieve. The journey sucked quite often and reaching the goal was not as rewarding as i expected.

Yeah, just an old bit of social conditioning.

Alright…

Delete
Delete
Delete

I wrote some examples about what i thought was awesome. But i deleted them, bc it was all mindstuff and ideas. Here is my original sentence:

With this awesomeness i mean seeing without thoughts and judging and comparing and fear.
Just being overwhelmed by beauty.
Well, this might be a bit too much to have this all the time. :-) And i enjoy thinking and making up stories.

So, some balance and ease and recognizing would be nice.
But i am willing to drop that too and take just couriosity.

Each time, it's good to loop back to what is being expressed, the perceptions, assumptions.
So, for example, 'seeing without thoughts'. What is being presumed in this? Is it true?
Are thoughts to be excluded from seeing?
Can we see while the wind is blowing and thoughts are appearing?

Yes, overwhelmed with beauty is a lovely, lovely thing, but its not going to get the pigs in. :D

Well, here’s the trick.
I guess everything is awesome if you look closely without concepts.
Just seeing without trying to understand.

Well, concepts are fine, it's what we do with them.
Concepts are awesome too.
There's three lines meeting somehow.
The concept 'triangle' pops into the head.
WOW!
Now you know what it is an example of, what you can do with it, the structure...amazing, no?!
You can share with others using the concept 'triangle'.
You can literally transfer ideas from one human being to another. :)

Seeing requires us not to get taken in by concepts as truth.
For example, we rarely see a tree, or a teaspoon, or a hand.
Why bother when 'tree', 'teaspoon' and 'hand' have got it covered. Apparently.

Its hard to quantify conciousness.
I d say there is focus but conciousness is not very deep.
Actually, i am not sure what conciousness is. I know what awareness is.

Who mentioned consciousness?

With warm wishes,
John

[Anne71]

. With the exception of poor defending by Newcastle Utd, what persists?

This too shall pass...

..sooner or later...
..probably later :-)


But isn't it beautiful how they always get it done badly?


I ll come back tmrrow

[s-p-a-c-e]

. With the exception of poor defending by Newcastle Utd, what persists?

This too shall pass...

..sooner or later...
..probably later :-)


But isn't it beautiful how they always get it done badly?


I ll come back tmrrow

Haha! Very good. :)

[Anne71]

Hi John,

huge thunderstorm here, yesterday

And I had a little quarrel with a lady.
I am camping until october and sharing bathroom with several other ppl.

It’s very hard to let her be like she is bc she is very controlling and intruding. I am aware of the stories i am telling myself about this situation and her and me. I see her as a kind of ‘secret’ teacher who shows me my triggers. Sometimes anger rushes in and lots of thoughts follow. There is still the need to protect ‘my’ privacy and boundaries.

Why would seeking to make it persistent indicate, that there is more to see?
Maybe seeking is just a story.
Or does seeking stop, when i saw everything that there is to see?

Because there is nothing to persist - seeking for persistence is based on the assumption of there being something persistable. With the exception of poor defending by Newcastle Utd, what persists?

Ok, i thought we were speaking about the seeking not ‘persistence’.
I think i read on LU that seeking stops after awakening.

Each time, it's good to loop back to what is being expressed, the perceptions, assumptions.
So, for example, 'seeing without thoughts'. What is being presumed in this? Is it true?
Are thoughts to be excluded from seeing?
Can we see while the wind is blowing and thoughts are appearing?

So, for example, 'seeing without thoughts'. What is being presumed in this? Is it true?

I only know the rare states when i am totally flashed, i see without thoughts and after a second a huge wave of energy/emotion rushes in and thoughts start to label everything.

Are thoughts to be excluded from seeing?

Very abstract question. Not sure what you mean.

Trying to answer:
I imagined when being super aware, after a lot of practice, i could listen to music or look at things without thought or focus just on music or the seen. Like thoughts maybe being there, but not in the spotlight, instead being in the dark.
Like being able to experience s.th. i am not able to yet.
Seems like i have a lot of constructs about awakening and stuff after that.

Can we see while the wind is blowing and thoughts are appearing?

Yes, of course. They are separate.
There is seeing while hearing.
Seeing is there all the time while eyes are open.
Hearing i guess is there all the time, too. But sometimes there is so intense focus on thought, that hearing is not noticed.
Seems like i have

Well, concepts are fine, it's what we do with them.
Concepts are awesome too.
There's three lines meeting somehow.
The concept 'triangle' pops into the head.
WOW!
Now you know what it is an example of, what you can do with it, the structure...amazing, no?!
You can share with others using the concept 'triangle'.
You can literally transfer ideas from one human being to another. :)

Seeing requires us not to get taken in by concepts as truth.
For example, we rarely see a tree, or a teaspoon, or a hand.
Why bother when 'tree', 'teaspoon' and 'hand' have got it covered. Apparently.

Yes!!

Greetings from Anne

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Anne,

Ok, i thought we were speaking about the seeking not ‘persistence’.
I think i read on LU that seeking stops after awakening.

In general, if it is to see that 'me' is made-up, is not me, never was me - then yes, once that is seen, it is irrefutable. Also, I wouldn't call it awakening, more like correcting a sight defect (but that's just my opinion).

Trying to answer:
I imagined when being super aware, after a lot of practice, i could listen to music or look at things without thought or focus just on music or the seen. Like thoughts maybe being there, but not in the spotlight, instead being in the dark.
Like being able to experience s.th. i am not able to yet.
Seems like i have a lot of constructs about awakening and stuff after that.

Well, just be. All the rest comes through that.

The story of 'Anne' having to do this or that has no grip anymore.
As you have seen what the persona 'Anne' is, then you know that all the narratives woven around it, are just that.
The whole ball of wool is a story that can be set aside wholesale.

Leaves the room empty. To be.

Enjoy the camping!
John

[Anne71]

Just reading and breathing and doing laundry.

[s-p-a-c-e]

Just reading and breathing and doing laundry.

Laundry. magic. :)

[Anne71]

Hi John,

got a sunburn. Pretty hot here.

I had an idea about s.th. creative, so thoughts where extremely occupied with that.
I wrote everything down and send it to somebody in charge.
Now there are lots of daydreamy thoughts about what wonderful could happen.
I enjoy being in daydreams more than in reality.
And i know, that the crash will come and i will be disappointed about being rejected.
I see, that i am cycling up and down in all these thoughts.

When i think: “I am here.”
I can feel my body relaxing and breathing getting deeper. Bc i was so tense and deep in thought before.

Sometimes there are thoughts like: this is not enough. This is boring. S.th. more exciting should happen :-)

I watch all this and remind me of being here.

Greetings from Anne

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Anne,

I had an idea about s.th. creative, so thoughts where extremely occupied with that.
I wrote everything down and send it to somebody in charge.
Now there are lots of daydreamy thoughts about what wonderful could happen.

Cool!

I enjoy being in daydreams more than in reality.
And i know, that the crash will come and i will be disappointed about being rejected.
I see, that i am cycling up and down in all these thoughts.

Let's say thoughts come in two varieties, creative and critical.
Creative tends to be about whatever it is, a book, a landscape, an interior design, a recipe.
Critical tends to be about me, the characterisation 'Anne', 'John' etc.

Critical thoughts are stories about what will go wrong, why its not good enough, etc, etc.
Were these thoughts not applicable to me, then why would I give a shit.
But if I am affected, it's because I am still identified with 'Anne', 'John'.

Even when I see 'Anne' as fiction, that doesn't mean I don't get pulled in to the old stories.
This is all good practise to see these things. Every time you get pulled in, another chance to learn.

So, let's take the critical thought about being rejected.
We question.
Am I taking this in as applying to me?
Yes.
Ok, is this 'me' in the story of rejection, me?

Really dig into the root of this.
Get it in yer bones.
Nothing in these stories touches you.
At all.

What's that like?

When i think: “I am here.”
I can feel my body relaxing and breathing getting deeper. Bc i was so tense and deep in thought before.

Sometimes there are thoughts like: this is not enough. This is boring. S.th. more exciting should happen :-)

I watch all this and remind me of being here.

Good, yeah, "I am here", can bring you back to being, when you've been in the head awhile.

Explore the above...

Thank you,
John

[Anne71]

Hi John,

how are you?

The very important mail with my idea could not be delivered. There was a mistake in the adress.
So funny. :))
Now i can re-edit it and send it again.

Today i felt happy. I was all smiles and took a seat in the bus opposite a grumpy looking lady. I noticed her face. But it didnt bother me that she seemed to be in a bad mood.
When i had to get out, she smiled and moved to let me through. And i accitentially kicked her a little bit and she was still smiling very sweetly. I didnt expect that.
So you never know. You might think you know until the surprise happens.

Let's say thoughts come in two varieties, creative and critical.
Creative tends to be about whatever it is, a book, a landscape, an interior design, a recipe.
Critical tends to be about me, the characterisation 'Anne', 'John' etc.

Critical thoughts are stories about what will go wrong, why its not good enough, etc, etc.
Were these thoughts not applicable to me, then why would I give a shit.
But if I am affected, it's because I am still identified with 'Anne', 'John'.

Even when I see 'Anne' as fiction, that doesn't mean I don't get pulled in to the old stories.
This is all good practise to see these things. Every time you get pulled in, another chance to learn.

Ok.

So, let's take the critical thought about being rejected.
We question.
Am I taking this in as applying to me?
Yes.
Ok, is this 'me' in the story of rejection, me?

Really dig into the root of this.
Get it in yer bones.
Nothing in these stories touches you.
At all.

What's that like?

Yes, lets dig!!

Rejection: its a judgement (thought).
S.th. gets accepted or rejected. It just happens. Its neither good or bad.

Rejection is a thought from my perception of other ppls ‘opinion’ (thought).

Expectation of rejection is a thought about future.

Other ppl: they are no different than ‘me’. an illusion.


The ideas i had, were noticed and written down. I did not make these thoughts. They are neither good or bad thoughts. I have no control of other ppls perceptions (!) of these ideas.

Actually its all fiction. Thoughts about the future and other ppls thoughts.

What do you think of this?


Can we talk about shame?
I guess shame is the feeling to the thought ‘rejection’?
Shame can be extremely strong, when ppl know ‘me’ and the rejection is very strongly connected with ‘me-story’.
Shame is also an expectation of ‘me’ doing or being not ok. So i go and hide.
It seems to be a negative perception that prevents to focus on what is now.
And it seems to consist of negative memories i transfer in to the future.
Shame implies there could be control or choice.
You said there would be control, but not by ‘me’ obviously.
So this shame is kind of sticking to the control-belief.



Why are you opposed to non-duality?
Is it bc it says that there is nobody and nothing matters anyway?


The lilac is smelling so sweet!

Greetings from Anne

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Anne,

how are you?

Good ta. :)

The very important mail with my idea could not be delivered. There was a mistake in the adress.
So funny. :))
Now i can re-edit it and send it again.

Cool.

Today i felt happy. I was all smiles and took a seat in the bus opposite a grumpy looking lady. I noticed her face. But it didnt bother me that she seemed to be in a bad mood.
When i had to get out, she smiled and moved to let me through. And i accitentially kicked her a little bit and she was still smiling very sweetly. I didnt expect that.
So you never know. You might think you know until the surprise happens.

Isn't that the most lovely feeling. :)

Yes, lets dig!!

Rejection: its a judgement (thought).
S.th. gets accepted or rejected. It just happens. Its neither good or bad.

Rejection is a thought from my perception of other ppls ‘opinion’ (thought).

Expectation of rejection is a thought about future.

Good. So track it back.
Expectation of rejection.
Why would I expect that?
Because I believe I'm rejectable?
Because I deserve to be rejected?
Why would that be?
Because I'm not good enough? Bad? Unworthy?

Other ppl: they are no different than ‘me’. an illusion.

The ideas i had, were noticed and written down. I did not make these thoughts. They are neither good or bad thoughts. I have no control of other ppls perceptions (!) of these ideas.

Actually its all fiction. Thoughts about the future and other ppls thoughts.

We make stuff up, so treat it lightly.
"I did not make these thoughts."
Well, you participated. :) At the very least a receiver. Is that not an important part of the dance?
Why would a delicious thought land on little old you, just you. :D

Can we talk about shame?

I guess shame is the feeling to the thought ‘rejection’?
Shame can be extremely strong, when ppl know ‘me’ and the rejection is very strongly connected with ‘me-story’.
Shame is also an expectation of ‘me’ doing or being not ok. So i go and hide.
It seems to be a negative perception that prevents to focus on what is now.
And it seems to consist of negative memories i transfer in to the future.
Shame implies there could be control or choice.
You said there would be control, but not by ‘me’ obviously.
So this shame is kind of sticking to the control-belief.

What are you ashamed about?
For example, let's say you felt unworthy, and so expected to be rejected.
Feeling yourself to be unworthy is not pleasant.
You might be ashamed of yourself for feeling this way about you, for a long long time.

That is the typical kind of set-up.

Shame is ubiquitous. But it has something very important to reveal.
There's gold in that there hurt.

Why are you opposed to non-duality?
Is it bc it says that there is nobody and nothing matters anyway?

It's the turning of it into a belief system, and the effects in making people passive puppets.
Some seekers will do anything to escape responsibility. :)

The lilac is smelling so sweet!

*smells the air :D

Warm wishes,
John

[Anne71]

Writing with you improves my english vocabulary quite a bit! :)

Thanks for your comments, thats a lot to think about. I'll write tmrrw.

[Anne71]

Hi John,

pondering is already finished!

Rejection: its a judgement (thought).
S.th. gets accepted or rejected. It just happens. Its neither good or bad.

Rejection is a thought from my perception of other ppls ‘opinion’ (thought).

Expectation of rejection is a thought about future.

Good. So track it back.
Expectation of rejection.
Why would I expect that?
Because I believe I'm rejectable?
Because I deserve to be rejected?
Why would that be?
Because I'm not good enough? Bad? Unworthy?

Does it matter WHY thought says, i could be rejected? Its all belief.

But i ll answer your question.
In this very-important-email-case, beliefs are:
I just think i am good or funny. Other ppl see me clearly and think my ideas are stupid.

In this field of work only very few ppl have success.
You have to know the right ppl to get ahead.
You have to work very hard to be successful.

Memories say, that i got rejected a lot.

Because I deserve to be rejected?
Why would that be?
Because I'm not good enough? Bad? Unworthy?

I would only ‘deserve’ to be rejected if the idea does not appeal. That is ok.
Life does not owe me anything.
And i haven’t done s.th. ‘bad’ to think that i deserve ‘punishment’. I dont feel guilty (in this area :))
I dont know if my idea is good enough. Maybe they send a little feedback, if they reject.

I have this belief, that if i tell other ppl, that i applied for s.th. and i am all excited about what could happen… i will not get it.
So stricktly speaking.. i should not have told you (bad luck).
Bc i have a picture of ‘me’ being the one all excited. And when ppl ask: “Did you get it?” I have to tell them: “No.” That is embarrasing.

----
So the above are all memories projected into the future and beliefs about ‘me’ and society (construct) and magical thinking.

Other ppl: they are no different than ‘me’. an illusion.

The ideas i had, were noticed and written down. I did not make these thoughts. They are neither good or bad thoughts. I have no control of other ppls perceptions (!) of these ideas.

Actually its all fiction. Thoughts about the future and other ppls thoughts.

We make stuff up, so treat it lightly.
"I did not make these thoughts."
Well, you participated. :) At the very least a receiver. Is that not an important part of the dance?

Yes, i kind of noticed the thoughts and wanted to share them. Or did you imply more?

Why would a delicious thought land on little old you, just you. :D

?? I thought ‘why’-questions are the road to story-land.
I dont know why.
Just because.
Why would a bird poop fall on my arm? :))
I could offer you some concepts.
I had them bc i read certain books, saw movies, lived + my perception + circumstances being there.

Can we talk about shame?

I guess shame is the feeling to the thought ‘rejection’?
Shame can be extremely strong, when ppl know ‘me’ and the rejection is very strongly connected with ‘me-story’.
Shame is also an expectation of ‘me’ doing or being not ok. So i go and hide.
It seems to be a negative perception that prevents to focus on what is now.
And it seems to consist of negative memories i transfer in to the future.
Shame implies there could be control or choice.
You said there would be control, but not by ‘me’ obviously.
So this shame is kind of sticking to the control-belief.

What are you ashamed about?
For example, let's say you felt unworthy, and so expected to be rejected.
Feeling yourself to be unworthy is not pleasant.
You might be ashamed of yourself for feeling this way about you, for a long long time.

I have the believe that i am different than other ppl. That i do not fit in.
I believe i should be ashamed about my body and DO s.th. about it. Take responsibility.
I believe s.th. is wrong with me, but i do not know what and i tried all kinds of stuff to change. Didnt work.

I saw that i am not my body.
That body is a concept.
But there is the belief that other ppl do not know that and judge me about it.

Wanting to fit in is loosening, also being ashamed with foreign ppl.
But it feels strong with ppl i know like family or colleagues.
Although i realized in the last days that other ppl are illusions, too

Shame is ubiquitous. But it has something very important to reveal.
There's gold in that there hurt.

Why is it ubiquitous?
Bc of expectations and shoulds and beliefs which are all thoughts and we do not have control?

How can i dig out the gold?
Is shame close to seeing, bc it is protecting 'me'.
Do i have to look when there is shame, to see what is behind?

Why are you opposed to non-duality?
Is it bc it says that there is nobody and nothing matters anyway?

It's the turning of it into a belief system, and the effects in making people passive puppets.

Who would be the puppet master?
Habit?

Some seekers will do anything to escape responsibility. :)

:)) ups, you got me

Greetings from Anne

[Anne71]

And i am kind of stuck with this body and culture.
Did i deserve that?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi Anne,

Does it matter WHY thought says, i could be rejected? Its all belief.

This is called avoidance. :)

But i ll answer your question.
In this very-important-email-case, beliefs are:
I just think i am good or funny. Other ppl see me clearly and think my ideas are stupid.

In this field of work only very few ppl have success.
You have to know the right ppl to get ahead.
You have to work very hard to be successful.

Memories say, that i got rejected a lot.

Sure, so this is how you've been thinking, taking this to be true.
It's good to see it, own it.

I would only ‘deserve’ to be rejected if the idea does not appeal. That is ok.
Life does not owe me anything.
And i haven’t done s.th. ‘bad’ to think that i deserve ‘punishment’. I dont feel guilty (in this area :))
I dont know if my idea is good enough. Maybe they send a little feedback, if they reject.

I have this belief, that if i tell other ppl, that i applied for s.th. and i am all excited about what could happen… i will not get it.
So stricktly speaking.. i should not have told you (bad luck).
Bc i have a picture of ‘me’ being the one all excited. And when ppl ask: “Did you get it?” I have to tell them: “No.” That is embarrasing.

Excellent. :) A very common strategy.

Yes, i kind of noticed the thoughts and wanted to share them. Or did you imply more?

There's always more. :D But that's more than enough to know they are noticed, and there was enough excitement for a desire to arise to share them.

?? I thought ‘why’-questions are the road to story-land.
I dont know why.
Just because.
Why would a bird poop fall on my arm? :))
I could offer you some concepts.
I had them bc i read certain books, saw movies, lived + my perception + circumstances being there.

Rhetorical why. :) Point being they did land on you. For a bird to poop on your arm you'd have to have travelled to where birds fly over. So you are participated.

I guess shame is the feeling to the thought ‘rejection’?
Shame can be extremely strong, when ppl know ‘me’ and the rejection is very strongly connected with ‘me-story’.
Shame is also an expectation of ‘me’ doing or being not ok. So i go and hide.
It seems to be a negative perception that prevents to focus on what is now.
And it seems to consist of negative memories i transfer in to the future.
Shame implies there could be control or choice.
You said there would be control, but not by ‘me’ obviously.
So this shame is kind of sticking to the control-belief.

These emotional stories are largely independent of the 'me' story, in that they operate anyway, despite you having seen that the 'me' you thought to be real, wasn't. In general, the insight does have an effect, but not much in the short term. Hence folk often say, 'Life is the same, but different.'

I have the believe that i am different than other ppl. That i do not fit in.
I believe i should be ashamed about my body and DO s.th. about it. Take responsibility.
I believe s.th. is wrong with me, but i do not know what and i tried all kinds of stuff to change. Didnt work.

I saw that i am not my body.
That body is a concept.
But there is the belief that other ppl do not know that and judge me about it.

Wanting to fit in is loosening, also being ashamed with foreign ppl.
But it feels strong with ppl i know like family or colleagues.
Although i realized in the last days that other ppl are illusions, too

Before you decide that others are illusions (escapist tactic #427) :) - best to focus on your own.

Why is it ubiquitous?
Bc of expectations and shoulds and beliefs which are all thoughts and we do not have control?

Long story :) it just is.

How can i dig out the gold?
Is shame close to seeing, bc it is protecting 'me'.
Do i have to look when there is shame, to see what is behind?

After an insight about the nature of 'me', it gives you a new approach to handle emotional challenges such as shame etc. Before you might say, 'why me' and wallow in self-pity. But with no real 'me', that wouldn't be an option. The gold is what you can learn about yourself through the medium of this shame story. Memories are of past events, but they operate now.
This is a bit outside the scope of what we're doing, so apologies for bringing it up. :D

Who would be the puppet master?
Habit?

We make one up, call it 'causes and conditions' - for example. :)

Warm wishes,
john