no next

[Steven257]

Good evening Stacy,

Can you find a seer even when there is thought?

No, I cannot find it. Thought says that there is a seer, but thoughts...well, it seems that your next post is about thought, which I will now read.

OK, read it. Did the exercise but will answer the questions again tomorrow as I just got home from a weekend trip. Watched the thoughts for 15 min and was starting to fall asleep. Will do it for 30 min tomorrow.

Where are they coming from and going to?

No idea. They just arise and disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Maybe if I said "on the count of 3" I will thing "green", that would be more difficult to answer but the exercise stated that I am not supposed to do anything about the thoughts. It does not seem that I could make a different thought appear with the current exercise.

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Not with this exercise. If I told myself that in 15 minutes, I will imagine being on a beach in Bermuda, that would likely decrease the negative thoughts at that time.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Not with this exercise. The thoughts just appeared and disappeared.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Not with the current exercise, but again, it is more confusing if i was actively imagining a beautiful beach or meditating on breath or using a mantra.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

It seemed very illogical when thoughts were just being watched.

That was a very interesting and important exercise. If you would not mind addressing my confusion about what happens when one is actively planning to think of things which seems to imply that there is some degree of control over what thoughts arise. There seems to be a controller. For example, in 15 seconds, I will type "green" and think "green". "green"...just typed it. Seemed like "I" did it! It is possible that it was all supposed to happen that way, which is very possible but that seems more theoretical than the feeling that "I" did it.

Thanks for your guidance.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Just go deeper. Where did the idea of "green" or 15 seconds" cone from?

Right?

[Steven257]

I felt very tired and the mind was moving to and fro today. Not sure why, but sleep was restless last night. Still, I can see that at one level, if thoughts are not controlled then the idea of "green" or "15 seconds" just arose and was not created by a controller. It seems that even the seemingly planned thoughts and actions just arise too, but I still feel stuck.

It seems much more obvious since we began this, that in the moment, there is no feeling of controller. Nevertheless, when you ask "Where did the idea of "green" or 15 seconds" come from?", it feels like you are asking "me", Steven and not my friend Roger or Fred. When your question is pondered, it feels like an "I" is still here trying to answer. When there is seeing of the monitor and hearing of the noises in the other room, there is no "I", just seeing and hearing, but when I go back to pondering the "just go deeper", the I-feeling returns.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Get some rest!

it feels like you are asking "me", Steven and not my friend Roger or Fred. When your question is pondered, it feels like an "I" is still here trying to answer.

Every time you have what you're calling this feeling of "I" or "me " LOOK for it. Don't just believe in it.

Can you even find "Roger" or "Fred?" Aren't they just like this illusory "me?"

The thought of "I," "Roger" or "Fred" arises and what is Actual Experience? Even if the seem to be right there?

Aren't you still just seeing color? Hearing sounds?
making a story of "I," "Roger" or "Fred?"

Has the confusion of "green in15 seconds" been addressed? It's just another arising thought! They all are.

Play with the exercise again when you're ready.

Once seen, it's really like Santa Claus - surprising it was ever believed.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Good evening, Steven,

I hope you are getting rested.

I felt very tired and the mind was moving to and fro today. Not sure why, but sleep was restless last night. Still, I can see that at one level, if thoughts are not controlled then the idea of "green" or "15 seconds" just arose and was not created by a controller. It seems that even the seemingly planned thoughts and actions just arise too, but I still feel stuck.

Yes, exactly. The thoughts that you can think something different or imagine something different are just arising thoughts as well. Here are several things you can try:

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know?

If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

The tiredness is a defense mechanism, like a form of resistance and is common among those who have come to LU to see through the illusory self...it will eventually pass. And yes, this whole looking for a "me" that has never existed is paradoxical and is not understandable, and how it all works is simply a mystery. Would you like to take a rest from this for a few days?

It seems much more obvious since we began this, that in the moment, there is no feeling of controller. Nevertheless, when you ask "Where did the idea of "green" or 15 seconds" come from?", it feels like you are asking "me", Steven and not my friend Roger or Fred. When your question is pondered, it feels like an "I" is still here trying to answer. When there is seeing of the monitor and hearing of the noises in the other room, there is no "I", just seeing and hearing, but when I go back to pondering the "just go deeper", the I-feeling returns.

"It feels like you are asking "me", Steven", "it feels like an "I" is still here trying to answer".

Can a feeling know anything? Look carefully, is this "feeling" an actual sensation that is felt? If not then it is simply an idea, a thought.

If no actual "feeling" is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the "feeling" be anything other than speculation/ideas/thoughts?

Okay, so where is this "feeling I" located?

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.

Relax for a few minutes - take calming breaths.

For 30 to 60 seconds each, do these exercises:

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where the " Steven257 -Self" is located.
Touch the exact location of " Steven257 -Self".

Answer each of these questions:

1. Were you able to find and feel "Steven257-Self " in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
2. Where is it?
3. What did you find?
4. Something? Anything? Nothing?
5. What sensations did you feel in your body that identified " Steven257 -Self (If any.)

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of Direct Experience.

Much love! And let me know if you want to take a break.

[Steven257]

Good evening, Stacy-

I just got home and really need to go to sleep. I definitely do not need a break but appreciate your concern. I felt much more rested today and contemplated your post today. I will post tomorrow while at work (not a problem at all).

I will be going to a Rupert Spira retreat which begins on Friday evening, although I will arrive at the retreat on Saturday morning. It ends on Friday, next week. Would like to continue our dialogue, if you think that it is OK, this week and would post once a day next week, unless you think a retreat plus posting is problematic in some way.

Looking forward to re-reading your post and will post tomorrow in the AM or early afternoon.

Thanks!

Steven

[Steven257]

Stacy,

Enjoyable and interesting exercises.

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

I cannot. I tried to do this multiple times.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know?

No idea why I chose that number. Seems like it just happens and then afterwords, I take credit for it. Such a rapid event that it is easy to be confused about it and to take the word of the society/culture. In actual experience and now shown in neuroscience experiments, I am now starting to more deeply feel that the number just comes up and "I" take credit for this event when, in fact, "I" had nothing to do with it. How could "I" do this, since "I" does not even exist. Starting to see that more.

Can a feeling know anything? Look carefully, is this "feeling" an actual sensation that is felt? If not then it is simply an idea, a thought.

A feeling cannot know anything. The feeling is actually a concept that the sensations that take place in this local environment make a "me".

If no actual "feeling" is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the "feeling" be anything other than speculation/ideas/thoughts?

It is just thoughts, a concept.

Okay, so where is this "feeling I" located?

Not located in a precise spot although it seems that it relates to the general region of this body-mind rather than a body-mind on the other side of the planet, for example.

1. Were you able to find and feel "Steven257-Self " in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

no, but please see the last response. Feels like a general region related to this body.

2. Where is it?

Not one specific point.

3. What did you find?

Not located in one specific spot. More precisely, briefly felt like nowhere at all a few times and I laughed, then thought came in and said that it is near this body.

4. Something? Anything? Nothing?

Nothing felt most accurate although it was a brief seeing of that.

5. What sensations did you feel in your body that identified " Steven257 -Self (If any.)

None. Thought came in and had a concept about this. In direct experience, Steven could not be found.

Ok. I now see it based on direct experience. Why is this still so difficult for me to accept? It feels like my reaction is blunted and weak. A bit frustrating again...not too bad but still wondering why there is no strong feeling of insight right now.

Love,

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steven,

Glad you are finding this interesting and enjoyable. That's a good sign that you're staying relaxed and not stressing too much about them.

Go ahead and enjoy Rupert Spira. We can continue when you return. There will be plenty to pay attention to while you are there. Let yourself be there while you're there.

Much love!

[Steven257]

Sounds good. I will post when I return.

Steven

[Steven257]

Hi Stacey,

Fairly certain that there will never be an “I” that can be discovered. Maybe, at some level there is a belief that there is an “I” because there is still judgement at work today, after returning from the retreat. Feelings of boredom, dissatisfaction, a realization that despite what was talked about at the retreat, most people at the retreat still seem to strongly identify with their stories. There is a noticing of this in “myself” as well.

So, this “I” does indeed seem more like the idea of a “university”. Not sure where to go from here to deepen the certainty that there is truly nobody home.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steven!

Yes, most people - even ones who have seen no self - go in & out of *thinking* there is a self for some time after the initial experience of no self. As has been said before, that's totally normal, even for years.

Knowing there is no controller or decider, we still often behave as though there were, until we look again.

It can be a long process. That is why there is an Aftercare group, a few Facebook forums, and even groups on this & other forums for further exploration.

Judgment doesn't disappear totally & all at once for most people. It can be gradual, can happen in chunks, and sometimes, rarely, all at once.

That does not invalidate what has been seen.

Feel free to repeat any previous exercise until I can post another one for you. I'm on my cell phone, and it would be easier to wait until I'm on my keyboard.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steven,

I hear your frustration, etc.

Any time you make an interpretation of body sensations, which we call "emotions," you can look directly at the sensations (or "AE" Actual Experience) and see what is real and not made-up.

Taking a thought you mention fairly regularly, either "I am stuck," or "I feel stuck," your choice, let's do this next exercise:

So, looking at the belief "I feel stuck".

(1) The thought "I feel stuck" arises and is the actual experience of an arising thought with ensuing thoughts of what that means. These ensuing thoughts are the content of that thought. The content of ALL thought is pure fantasy

When that story or any story that taps into that core belief appears, you can look at the core belief each and time, so that you get to see what is actually appearing and not get caught up in it.

(2) Almost simultaneously an emotion arises with the thought/thought story, which is nothing more than a sensation labelled as 'such-and-such emotion" - when the sensation is there, it's the actual experience of a sensation

(3) There is often a thought label on the sensation like 'guilt', 'shame', 'sadness', or in this case, “stuck,” - when there is a thought label then that is the actual experience of a thought label.

(4) Images of the past may come up about similar situations - but when there is an image about a supposed past that is nothing more than the experience of an image

(5) An additional thought may arise saying "this is just a belief" or "the belief is experienced through emotions, sensation or images (memories)" - but this is the actual experience of a thought ABOUT a belief

So what I'm trying to point to here is that belief or believing is simply cannot be experienced as such. There are only THOUGHTS ABOUT belief or believing, but never an actual belief or believing.

The emotions, sensations, images that might come with the "I'm stuck" thought are just simply sensations and/or images.

You may say that beliefs are experienced through past experiences/memories. When are those actual thoughts, labels, sensation and mental images actually appearing? They are actually appearing NOW as thoughts and mental images.

Now for the exercise!

So let’s now look for this “stuck” self. This exercise is best done with the eyes closed.

1) Look at the thought ‘I feel stuck’ itself. Close your eyes and see the words ‘I feel stuck’ as a typewritten sentence in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the thought ‘I feel stuck’ know anything about being good enough, or are the words just a bunch of letters?

Can you find anyone/anything in the words themselves that is “stuck”?

Are those words the “stuck self”?

2) Then look at the sensation that is in the body. Ignore everything else but the sensation itself.

Does the sensation itself know anything about “being stuck”?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is the “stuck self”?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is guilty?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is shameful?
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is the “stuck self”.

If the words ‘yes’, or ‘yes, this is the “stuck self” appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline labeled ‘body’ know anything about “being stuck”?
Does the image/outline itself suggest in any way that it is “stuck” or that it is the “stuck self”?

(If you find it difficult to see the body as a mental image/outline, then open your eyes and do the above bit, looking at the body which is the AE of colour).

If other random mental images appear at any time during this exercise, check to see if those images are the self who is “stuck”, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is “stuck”, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find the “stuck self” anywhere.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘stuck/frustrated/bored” or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, image/colour) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Do this exercise everytime the "I feel stuck belief" appears or even when frustrated or bored appears. Just substitute "I feel stuck" with "I am frustrated" or "I am bored".

Let me know how you do with looking at ‘I feel stuck’.

Much love!

[Anastacia42]

Hey, Steven,

I confess to copying a prior exercise and editing it for your belief, "I feel stuck," or frustrated or bored. However, I missed a couple of places, so unless you want to work with a feeling of shame or guilt - because you can do this with ANY emotion, just substitute frustrated or bored near the bottom where it says:

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is guilty? frustrated?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is shameful? bored?

Thanks for understanding!
Stacy

[Steven257]

Thank you for the clarification. I reviewed the exercise but will like to experiment with it today and tomorrow. Can I get back to you on Friday? This will require some deep exploration.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Absolutely! Take all the time you need.

All of these exercises bear repeating. Like I keep saying, it is not a one-and-done situation. It is a process.

Remember to stay relaxed and light. Just look at what's actually there.

Have fun with it!