Seeing freedom

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna....how are you? What's happening?

Love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

Sorry again. I was walking for three days and unexpectedly didn't have any/patchy phone reception the last two days.

And what is thought labelling this sensation as?

Thought is sometimes labelling sensation as feeling, othertimes just as sensation.

If the thought, for example, appears saying, “I feel like chocolate ice-cream today instead of vanilla”, or “I feel like wearing the red dress instead of the blue”, is there an actual sensation, or is word “feeling” simply pointing to thought?

Feeling is pointing to thought.

This question was asking if you have noticed differences within yourself etc to when you first started this exploration and if you have what are those differences? How does it feel to see through the illusion of the separate self? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

I am finding this question very difficult! I am not sure I feel very different. Perhaps in the times I remember I have seen the illusion of a separate self there is sense of lightness around a particular situation.

For example, in your introductory post, you wrote:-

What are you looking for at LU? I am curious.

To end the suffering inherent in clinging to separate self.
To directly experience the knowledge of no-self and allow that to be the answer to all my questions of what happens after realisation.

How is this for you now? Have there been any changes?

I have been distracted by other things/ideas in my circumstances and people I have been around in the last weeks that I don't feel I've spent as much time reflecting more carefully and as often as in the first weeks and so perhaps they have not sunk in as much as they might otherwise. But like I said above there does at times seem to be a spaciousness/relaxation around things that I might previously have become stressed or frustrated.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anna,

Are there any more questions you would like to ask or anything that you are not clear about? If not, would you like to answer the final questions?

With love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

I would like to answer the final questions...!

With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

Okay...here are the final questions. Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you , rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love, kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

Thank you for the questions... I think I will take a couple of days to look before responding.

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Okay...no problem :)

K
xx

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

Just want to let you know I'm still here and still looking. Will answer questions soon.


Love, Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anna...it has been quite a few days since I posted the final questions to you. If you are uncertain on how to answer them, then perhaps you have not seen clearly through the separate self. I would like for you to answer the questions so we can see where we need to investigate further.

Love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay


You may we'll be right...not sure if I am clear on it all. Wanted to take time to re-read the thread and think about it all but I've been fasting most of this time which seems to effect my concentration wildly! Also maybe feel a bit nervous to get it wrong so been putting off until I feel 100% sure. That time hasn't come. So here it is anyway!

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no and never was a 'self', 'me' or 'I' to be found as these are all concepts, the content of thought. There is no actual experience of these ideas.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self starts with thought and the labelling of actual experience as 'mine' or 'not mine'; identifying the functioning of taste, smell, colour, sensation and thought as 'mine'.
It is reinforced by thought making stories about experience that say things such as 'this is my choice', 'I did X and then Y happened so I have control in this way'.
The idea of 'me' comes with the idea of 'other'. My thought keeps these twin ideas strong by comparing me with other. Thought also creates labels and stories about sensation that feed more thought, 'I am not as good as X so I might lose out...oh I feel anxious, what if nothing works out, I'll be alone, I feel afraid' etc etc.
So I guess the main thing in all that is taking the content of thought to be real.

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels good. I think I can notice it having a subtle effect in everyday life. But see i still have a sea of threads to untangle. Most of the time I am wrapped up in the illusion of a separate self.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There were a few things that pushed me to look or that seemed revelatory...
There was observing thoughts and seeing that I have no control of them.
Learning the content of thought is not 'real'...and how that implies that everything from a cup to 'my self' cannot be actually found. I think this was a key moment.
Then there was realising there was no choice and no responsibility!

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

a) Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all concepts about experience. Thought will say 'I just made a decision ' but looking closely a moment than choice is made or a chooser cannot be found. Thought can say 'I intend X' or 'I will control Y' but that does not make the supposed outcome happen necessarily. There is no free will as there is no chooser to choose.
b) What makes things happen? Good question! I really don't know now. Things happen and so it goes on.
c) There is no 'I' to make choices to be responsible for. Action happens, then again and again.
d) Not sure what you are asking for examples of?

Anything to add?

Not right now, I'm sure there'll be more to answer when you read my responses. I'm sure there are some things I'm not clear on. This has taken all my brain power for now.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

not sure if I am clear on it all. Wanted to take time to re-read the thread and think about it all but I've been fasting most of this time which seems to effect my concentration wildly! Also maybe feel a bit nervous to get it wrong so been putting off until I feel 100% sure. That time hasn't come. So here it is anyway!

This is not an exam to see if you can get the answers right. There are no right or wrong answers. Answers come from looking and not thinking. You know from within yourself, that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self from how it feels to see this, and not how you think the answers should be.

How does it feel to see to have seen through the concept of being a separate self?

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels good. I think I can notice it having a subtle effect in everyday life. But see i still have a sea of threads to untangle. Most of the time I am wrapped up in the illusion of a separate self.

What does “it feels good” mean? What does that look like, how does it feel? Describe how it feels to have seen there is no separate self.

How does it feel now, compared to when you started the dialogue?

What subtle effects are you noticing in everyday life? Describe them. Give an example of the subtle effects you have noticed. Give some examples on how you have noticed perception changes etc.

What exactly is it that is “wrapped up in the illusion of a separate self”?

Getting sucked into the story of being a separate self will continue to happen, so that patterns at work can be seen. I. There is also a lot of conditioning that still needs to get rewritten, as it certainly doesn't get all rewritten in one hit. It's not wrong. It's part of the process and will eventually fall away.

Next time you watch a TV show or a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story, notice how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room. As if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. Is it different from being sucked into mind movies ie thought stories? At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly?

d) Not sure what you are asking for examples of?

Give some examples, from the past few days from your daily life, on how you have noticed that there is no separate self choosing, deciding, controlling or being responsible.

Anything to add?

Not right now, I'm sure there'll be more to answer when you read my responses. I'm sure there are some things I'm not clear on. This has taken all my brain power for now.

No wonder! It is draining when the focus is on thinking the correct answers instead of going with how you felt when you saw through the illusion and how it feels now, and what you felt when you saw through the concepts of control, choice etc.

Love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

How does it feel to see to have seen through the concept of being a separate self?

I keep wondering if this is a trick question...how can I talk about my experience when there is no 'me' experiencing?
It seems hard anyway. Maybe I am not clear on something/s and haven't really seen. Most of the time there is no space between thoughts to see there is no self. There are also lots of thoughts arguing that 'yes, in some way there is no self but reeeally, look, there is this other person over there, tells me she has a self, reports sensations etc that 'i' cannot feel..'

What does “it feels good” mean? What does that look like, how does it feel? Describe how it feels to have seen there is no separate self.

When there are moments I look and can't find a separate self there is sensation that thought labels 'peaceful', 'blank', 'a relief'. Like a wave washing things away and again every moment.

How does it feel now, compared to when you started the dialogue?

Mostly, it feels the same.

What subtle effects are you noticing in everyday life? Describe them. Give an example of the subtle effects you have noticed. Give some examples on how you have noticed perception changes etc.

It's mostly, or maybe entirely to do with a detachment from thought, either by a deliberate looking or a sort of 'aha' moment, for example when starting to feel stressed researching travel modes/times/prices. The detachment doesn't change anything and yet it feels like it does. Over the last days I have noticed similar when thoughts come comparing 'me to someone else.
At times a more relaxed attitude toward health concerns, which is I suppose the same as the above - a dropping away of thought or some layers of thought.

What exactly is it that is “wrapped up in the illusion of a separate self”?

Thought is wrapped up in itself. There is no looking just thinking.

Give some examples, from the past few days from your daily life, on how you have noticed that there is no separate self choosing, deciding, controlling or being responsible.

I've noticed it in small ways - getting out of bed, deciding where to sit or walk, tidying/cleaning.

I'm going to try explain what's been going on for me today, sort of the last few days in some ways, because this is where all my energy is going and I feel confused about it relates to these questions. It's the trying to make the right decision thing. Maybe it will show up something I'm not understanding about what we've covered.

The last day it felt like I was being confronted with all the things I find difficult or dislike in myself. I'm not sure how to look at this. There is colour and there is sensation labelled 'me and 'mine', and there's thought saying 'this colour is bad', 'this sensation is unpleasant'.... and 'it is this way because of X and if it weren't for such and such there wouldn't be this unpleasant sensation'. But then there are thoughts that say the opposite 'if you do such and such it will be very nice'. Although hard to 'see' these thoughts sometimes, it can seem that action is just happening but I think there is usually some thought. Or is it? (for example, eating something that will not feel good or cause pain)
I guess I'm looking st this because I see it as a problem because thought labels sensations and makes stories about outcomes saying they are unpleasant. And yeah, I feel I strong sense of wanting to avoid pain, liking dropping the pan when it's hot ....but I'm not dropping the pan.
The way I see this was that my actions were just happening, thought was coming, analysing but there was no looking at the sensations, colour etc. And so I tried looking and there was kind of a pause to the thought cycle but it felt like the pull to look away and be lost back in thought was strong.

What is it to 'look' if it is not part of what's already happening?


I am sorry for all the rambling. I can't be any clearer right now and I want to reply as fully as I can so that you know what a confused mess my head is and what I can and can't understand! (Hopefully not nothing, haha! :-p)

With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

How does it feel to see to have seen through the concept of being a separate self?

I keep wondering if this is a trick question...how can I talk about my experience when there is no 'me' experiencing?

Experience appears as every ‘thing’ including the idea of feeling sad, happy, lighter, heavier, stressed, peaceful and so on – these ‘things’ still appear, so there is still a noticing of their appearance…yes? There was never a you experiencing any of these ‘things’ before you started this exploration, and yet these concepts were appearing then…yes? So they will still be appearing now. When initially seeing through the illusory self there is a shift and life feels lighter and less serious.

So the question is really simple. From when you began the exploration to now…is there any difference to how you feel? What does it feel like to see that there is no one who is actually suffering or experiencing any of those ‘things’. Has the seeking stopped or not?

It seems hard anyway. Maybe I am not clear on something/s and haven't really seen. Most of the time there is no space between thoughts to see there is no self. There are also lots of thoughts arguing that 'yes, in some way there is no self but reeeally, look, there is this other person over there, tells me she has a self, reports sensations etc that 'i' cannot feel..'

So instead of listening to thoughts, learn to observe them. And when you actually STOP and LOOK for this so called separate self that “is not clear” and “has no space between thoughts to see there is no self”, then space opens up, because the ‘mind’ becomes pre-occupied with the looking!

Tell me how you look. What method do you use to LOOK?

Sit for 5-10 minutes, once in the morning and once at night. Take in a couple of deep breaths to let the dust settle. Close your eyes and just observe 'your inner world’ by letting whatever thoughts appear, come to your awareness; each to be noticed for a moment, and then replaced by the next. Try not to establish any kind of hierarchy among them, as no thought is more important than another. Watch them come and go as dispassionately as possible. Don't focus on any one thought in particular, but try to let the stream move on evenly and calmly, without any special investment on your part. If you find that you have followed a thought and are no longer just observing them, gently bring your attention back to ‘your inner world’ and start again.

What does “it feels good” mean? What does that look like, how does it feel? Describe how it feels to have seen there is no separate self.

When there are moments I look and can't find a separate self there is sensation that thought labels 'peaceful', 'blank', 'a relief'. Like a wave washing things away and again every moment.

Is there an expectation here? If so, what is it?

It really is up to you to make the time to look. That is just the way it is.

What subtle effects are you noticing in everyday life? Describe them. Give an example of the subtle effects you have noticed. Give some examples on how you have noticed perception changes etc.

It's mostly, or maybe entirely to do with a detachment from thought, either by a deliberate looking or a sort of 'aha' moment, for example when starting to feel stressed researching travel modes/times/prices. The detachment doesn't change anything and yet it feels like it does. Over the last days I have noticed similar when thoughts come comparing 'me to someone else.

Lovely! Yes, there is a detachment to thought where thoughts are being noticed for what they are…simply an appearance. This detachment will deepen as long as you keep looking.

What exactly is it that is “wrapped up in the illusion of a separate self”?

Thought is wrapped up in itself. There is no looking just thinking.

How is this so, if there is a detachment to thought? It is, however, up to you to continue to LOOK. It is the constant diligent looking that eventually brings about looking happening automatically, but you have to put in the work to get there!

The last day it felt like I was being confronted with all the things I find difficult or dislike in myself. I'm not sure how to look at this.

Seeing through the illusory self is a beginning and not an ending. The clearing of beliefs/patterns/conditioning will begin a phase of mixed emotions, intensified sensations including fear, anxiety and anger. There is also a lot of conditioning that still needs to get rewritten, as it certainly doesn't get all rewritten in one hit. Getting sucked into the story of being a separate self will continue to happen, so that we can SEE patterns at work. It's not wrong. It's part of the process. And there is a lot of work to undo all that is no longer serving.

Although hard to 'see' these thoughts sometimes, it can seem that action is just happening but I think there is usually some thought. Or is it? (for example, eating something that will not feel good or cause pain)
I guess I'm looking st this because I see it as a problem because thought labels sensations and makes stories about outcomes saying they are unpleasant. And yeah, I feel I strong sense of wanting to avoid pain, liking dropping the pan when it's hot ....but I'm not dropping the pan.

So there is an expectation that seeing through the illusory separate self will get rid of stuff you don’t like or want. Well, there was and never has been a separate you, ever, so what thought calls ‘pain’ still appears. It is up to you to break it down into AE and see what it actually is and to see if there is anyone who is actually suffering this pain. The more you look the more it is seen there is no one that anything is happening to and this is what is needed to cement the initial seeing.

The way I see this was that my actions were just happening, thought was coming, analysing but there was no looking at the sensations, colour etc. And so I tried looking and there was kind of a pause to the thought cycle but it felt like the pull to look away and be lost back in thought was strong.

Yes, so it is ignoring thought and doing the looking, even if there is a “strong” pull not to look. No one else can do it for you!

What is it to 'look' if it is not part of what's already happening?

I don't understand what you are asking here. As I asked above, tell me how you look. Tell me what you do to look.

Love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

So the question is really simple. From when you began the exploration to now…is there any difference to how you feel? What does it feel like to see that there is no one who is actually suffering or experiencing any of those ‘things’. Has the seeking stopped or not?

I do feel, on the whole, lighter. Even when I was having a bad time the other day, caught in my thoughts, there were moments of calm and despite the stuckness there was not the same level hopelessness. I'm not sure the seeking has stopped completely. When I remember to stop listening to thought and pay attention to AE I can see there is no one who is actually suffering or experiencing and this feels simple and detached. After I do this or if I sit for a while paying attention to AE I feel peaceful, even joyful sometimes.

Tell me how you look. What method do you use to LOOK?

I break things down into actual experience, colours, sound, taste, smell, sensation, thought. Sometimes it begins with the intention to look break down starting with colour. Other times it will be remembering that the content thoughts I'm paying attention to is not real and I will start there.

What does “it feels good” mean? What does that look like, how does it feel? Describe how it feels to have seen there is no separate self.

When there are moments I look and can't find a separate self there is sensation that thought labels 'peaceful', 'blank', 'a relief'. Like a wave washing things away and again every moment.

Is there an expectation here? If so, what is it?

I'm not sure. There do seems to be these pleasant (and neutral) feelings when I pay attention to AE but it's not that I expect whe experience of what I'm paying attention to to be what I would normally call pleasant. It could be the opposite.

Thought is wrapped up in itself. There is no looking just thinking.

How is this so, if there is a detachment to thought? It is, however, up to you to continue to LOOK. It is the constant diligent looking that eventually brings about looking happening automatically, but you have to put in the work to get there!

There is detachment to thought but only sometimes! Sometimes moments are few and far between! It has been better the last two days.

What is it to 'look' if it is not part of what's already happening?

I don't understand what you are asking here. As I asked above, tell me how you look. Tell me what you do to look.

I think what I was trying to ask/express was frustration of how to be responsible for looking more when there is no 'I' choosing.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

Thank you for sharing. To me, what you are describing is the classic yo-yoing phase of ‘gating’. Where in one moment there is clarity and in the next there seems to be an identifying with a ‘self’. The realisation has happened but it needs to deepen and this is done by continuing to look.

I think what I was trying to ask/express was frustration of how to be responsible for looking more when there is no 'I' choosing.

Yes, it seems to be a bit of a conundrum! On a ‘practical’ level, it is like forming any new habit. Let’s say for example that during the day you find yourself identifying as a ‘self’ that it seems like something is happening to a ‘me’. If, in that moment you don’t have the time to look to see what it is exactly that is ‘suffering’ (or whatever the case may be), that is okay. You can do the looking later on when you do have the time. All you have to do is bring the scenario to mind and then look. If you want to look more, leave post it notes around the house reminding you to look etc.

Tell me how you look. What method do you use to LOOK?

I break things down into actual experience, colours, sound, taste, smell, sensation, thought. Sometimes it begins with the intention to look break down starting with colour. Other times it will be remembering that the content thoughts I'm paying attention to is not real and I will start there.

Wonderful! Keep this up! :)

Is there an expectation here? If so, what is it?

I'm not sure. There do seems to be these pleasant (and neutral) feelings when I pay attention to AE but it's not that I expect whe experience of what I'm paying attention to to be what I would normally call pleasant. It could be the opposite.

And what exactly is it that labels experience as "good/pleasant" or "bad/unpleasant"? In order for it to be true that you shouldn't be feeling or thinking pleasant or unpleasant thoughts, there would need to be a you!

So, as I wrote above, what is happening is the yo-yoing. This is normal. I would like to give you the final questions again so we can complete this thread. This doesn’t mean that you will be left alone. Once the thread has been finalised, you will be invited to LU Aftercare on Facebook etc and you can always contact me either on FB or via the forums Private Messaging system at any time.

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you , rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love, Kay