Knock Knock

[forgetmenot]

Julian...we are just about done with this exploration. Only the post I sent you and then some final questions. It would be good if you could find the desire to finish...since we are nearly there. Up to you.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi KAY!!!!!!

Back here!!!!!!

Sorry for the long waiting.... needed a time...

things are settling down, at times.

So, deffinitely can not stop bad thoughts hahahahahahahaaaaaa

And Julian is the main character in all these past thought and future thoughts, it is a character, thought content.
And also, sensations and emotions arrise out of the blue.

So, will take your questions.....
And confess that it does not feel like we´re almost there.... Do not want to hurry things....

Yes, so can you see that the ‘experiencer’ and the ‘experience’ is one and the same? Therefore there is no experiencer of experience, knowing of known, awareness of awared? That they are all one and same?

No experiencer can be found.
Thoughts about one happen though. It does not make it real.

So, do you have any questions you would like to ask about anything we have explored from beginning to now?

Think I am waiting to find a no-self somewhere heheheheheheee if that makes sense.
If self is not real, is I is not real, well, how shall I know it!?!????

It seems as if the "I" is an "inquirer" that wants to find out that the I does not exist....



So, thank you for your support and love Kay :)
Had interesting insights about.... love... these days, but that´s another topic..... :P


Big Hug you Kay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[forgetmenot]

Hello Julian,

So, deffinitely can not stop bad thoughts hahahahahahahaaaaaa

No, thoughts cannot be stopped. And what says that some thoughts are good and some are terrible?
What is it that says thoughts have the power to affect reality....another thought?

So, will take your questions.....
And confess that it does not feel like we´re almost there.... Do not want to hurry things....

There is nothing left to explore, Julian. Now it’s time for you to put your expectations aside because that is the only things that is hindering you now. You have seen many things during our exploration, including that there is no separate self. If you have seen this clearly even once, then you have seen already. It is only thought that says something has to be different.

As I said at the beginning…there has never been a separate self, so what would being a separate self look like and feel like if there has never been one?

You would like identification with an “I/self” to stop as proof that you have 100% clearly seen that there is no self....right? And you are waiting for thought to say…”you can relax now Julian, you have seen through the separate self, and you no longer are one”!! But the idea of being 100% clear all the time and this stage and wanting thought to confirm that you have seen are just more thought bubbles and they are seen in utter clarity. Even the idea that something is identifying with thought about being able to choose, decide, control is just an idea. There is NOTHING here that can identify with thoughts of any kind , let alone thoughts about being a separate self. Only thought says that something is identifying with/as something!

Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty the pockets, still no keys. You feel very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are feeling. This happens all the time. The problem is that believing in your feelings and not your direct experience will keep you from you yo-yoing from being clear to then doubting. It is important to understand that just because you feel something is true, does not mean that it is. You can simply look and see what is true and what is not. That the purpose of these exercises.

Yes, so can you see that the ‘experiencer’ and the ‘experience’ is one and the same? Therefore there is no experiencer of experience, knowing of known, awareness of awared? That they are all one and same?

No experiencer can be found.
Thoughts about one happen though. It does not make it real.

Exactly…just as thoughts about being a separate self does not make a separate self real either.

So, do you have any questions you would like to ask about anything we have explored from beginning to now?

Think I am waiting to find a no-self somewhere heheheheheheee if that makes sense.
If self is not real, is I is not real, well, how shall I know it!?!????

As I said above, you have an expectation that something should be different, that something should signal that you have seen. Realising that there is no separate self can be very subtle. But it can be felt in the body, perception of what you think you are, have changed, as have perceptions about objects/things and life. That is how you know.

And you also know because when you looked for the separate self everywhere, you never found one. That is how simple it is.

It seems as if the "I" is an "inquirer" that wants to find out that the I does not exist....

And what is the AE of "It seems as if the "I" is an "inquirer" that wants to find out that the I does not exist...."

I think it is a good time for you to go back and read your thread from the beginning to end. And then you tell me if you can find an “I” as the inquirer. I can’t point out any further that if there is no experiencer of experience…and that they are one and the same, and give you the clock exercise without it clicking what I am pointing at, then I suppose this exploration stops here. This exploration is about realising what you are not and if there are further questions or you want to deepen your inquiry, then you have to realise there is no separate self first, and then you can start another thread that will take explorations deeper.

Once you have read your entire thread through thoroughly, and redo exercises you feel a pull to redo….then let me know what you noticed.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi Kay :)

Thank you for your answer...
Will proceed as you say
Will take my time

[forgetmenot]

Hey Julian...checking in to see how you are going with rereading your thread?

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi Kay,

reading slowly, page 3

So....
Really can not say if something had changed or not you know?
Everything seems the same but.... more like this right now is the only thing that is happening, not that it is more or less intense, but just how it is, it is....
Even more painfull sensations arrising, Yeah I know... what the fck is saying that those sensations are painfull? Heheheheh-

No, thoughts cannot be stopped. And what says that some thoughts are good and some are terrible?

Another thought describing thoughts.
Actually is not "describing" thoughts.
Thought pass away.
Thought arrises says "lot of bad thoughts". But the only thought appearing is that!!!!!!!!!!! Only the present thought!!!!!

What is it that says thoughts have the power to affect reality....another thought?

Yes.

And what is the AE of "It seems as if the "I" is an "inquirer" that wants to find out that the I does not exist...."

Thought.



Big hug.

[forgetmenot]

Hey J u l i a n! :)

Really can not say if something had changed or not you know?

What is the seeking like now? Is the seeking still intense or has it quietened down?

Everything seems the same but.... more like this right now is the only thing that is happening, not that it is more or less intense, but just how it is, it is....

You wrote the following in your introduction when you registered for the forum. Is this what you are looking for, and when you have this, then you know that you have seen?

"So if Im honest I expect that "shadow" of not being enough, of being uncomplete, stops following me whatever i do. I want to get rid of the notion Im a tiny an incomplete "someone"."

When you look now, can you find a separate self anywhere at all?

Even more painfull sensations arrising, Yeah I know... what the fck is saying that those sensations are painfull? Heheheheh-

Are you waiting for sensations to disappear forever as a way to prove that you have seen through the separate self?

That's good news! The clearing of beliefs/patterns/conditioning will begin a phase of mixed emotions, intensified sensations including fear, anxiety and anger. There is also a lot of conditioning that still needs to get rewritten, as it certainly doesn't get all rewritten in one hit. Getting sucked into the story of being a separate self will continue to happen, so that we can SEE patterns at work. It's not wrong. It's part of the process. And there is a lot of work to undo all that is no longer serving.

A sense of loss may appear and is natural when old beliefs are falling away...as is fear and anger. The easy part was the seeing!! But with the seeing through of the core belief of being a separate self you know that the conditioning is not something you own, so it's easier to clear.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi Kay!!!!!!

What is the seeking like now? Is the seeking still intense or has it quietened down?

Sometimes it seems quieter.....
Like, I do not give a fck...
A lot of activities I used to do, i completely forget....

You wrote the following in your introduction when you registered for the forum. Is this what you are looking for, and when you have this, then you know that you have seen?

Emm.....
Sensations are still here hehehehheeeee.
Think I expected a big bang hahahaha...

When you look now, can you find a separate self anywhere at all?

No.
Never could.
Can not find a no-self either.
Can find thoughts about there being a self, or that no self exists.... Thoughts all way long....

Are you waiting for sensations to disappear forever as a way to prove that you have seen through the separate self?

Hahahahaa maybe I am hahahhaa.
But that does not make sense.
If there never was a self, why would anything change for seeing this???



Lot of stuff going on, anxiety, sadness, fear.
And kind of, life seems like with no purpose now.
Like, life has no meaning, nor good meaning nor depressive meaning. There is just this happening.
Yes, sense of loss.... Like I do not know what life is about anymore!!!!!!!


Kay, really do not care if there is a self or there is not anymore....
Only a thought could say such things....



So....

Big hug Kay :)
Thank you a lot

[forgetmenot]

Hello Julian,

Usually it is an expectation that is a problem, even when we think we have no expectations! :)

What is the seeking like now? Is the seeking still intense or has it quietened down?

Sometimes it seems quieter.....
Like, I do not give a fck...
A lot of activities I used to do, i completely forget....

so what is the seeking for now? Is it expectations that are appearing or actual seeking?
And when the “I do not give a fck” is appearing, how does it feel in the body? Is it lighter or heavier?

You wrote the following in your introduction when you registered for the forum. Is this what you are looking for, and when you have this, then you know that you have seen?

Emm.....
Sensations are still here hehehehheeeee.
Think I expected a big bang hahahaha...

Yup….many do! Either to wake up and to literally see the world through new eyes, that somehow they feel one with everything! I wonder what it would feel like to be one with a light switch??!! Or to have a bright flash of white light, trumpeting angels…and the list goes on. For the most part, it is a very subtle shift and the shift is a shift in perception. In other words how you see the world and the ‘self’ perceptively is what is different…not the world itself or the so called ‘self’!

When you look now, can you find a separate self anywhere at all?

No.
Never could.
Can not find a no-self either.
Can find thoughts about there being a self, or that no self exists.... Thoughts all way long....

Lovely. And is there a controller of thought? Can you choose what thoughts appear and when or what they point to?

Are you waiting for sensations to disappear forever as a way to prove that you have seen through the separate self?

Hahahahaa maybe I am hahahhaa.
But that does not make sense.
If there never was a self, why would anything change for seeing this???

Exactly! Is there a body in AE which sensations are felt?

Lot of stuff going on, anxiety, sadness, fear.
And kind of, life seems like with no purpose now.
Like, life has no meaning, nor good meaning nor depressive meaning. There is just this happening. Yes, sense of loss.... Like I do not know what life is about anymore!!!!!!!

And isn’t that wonderful!~ Life just unfolds without you needing to do anything or be anything! Where do ‘you’ end and life/experience begin? It always has been!

Kay, really do not care if there is a self or there is not anymore....
Only a thought could say such things....

Bravo! :) And even if thought said to you over and over that you have seen and that you are not a separate self….what is it exactly that needs that confirmation? And why, since thought is just an appearance, would a thought know if you have seen or not? Does experience/Life/awareness/THIS itself need confirmation that it IS?

Okay, is there ANYTHING that you are not sure about, or you need further clarity on? Do you have any questions at all? If not, I would like to give you a few questions in my next post for you to answer, to make sure that I have covered everything with you and that you are 100% sure that you have realised that there is no separate self at all in any shape or form.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi K A Y!!

so what is the seeking for now? Is it expectations that are appearing or actual seeking?

There is expectation that somehow thoughts have to change....
And sensations....

I mean, if there isn´t anyone here, how can all this suffering occur???

And when the “I do not give a fck” is appearing, how does it feel in the body? Is it lighter or heavier?

That lasted a few days. Not here anymore. Was lighter and kind of frightening....



So, all this happen in the midst of an emotionall situation in life here.... Lots of things moving, but think that the breakup with my gf was what caused all this..... Being honest, pretty sure of that...

Okay, is there ANYTHING that you are not sure about, or you need further clarity on? Do you have any questions at all? If not, I would like to give you a few questions in my next post for you to answer, to make sure that I have covered everything with you and that you are 100% sure that you have realised that there is no separate self at all in any shape or form.

Im not sure of anything heheheheeeeeee....
Really honest.... that change you describe, leaving expectations aside, did not happen here. Perceptual reality and life are perceived the same......
Do not want the blue name :P
Would be realy weird...



Big hug :)
Thank you

[forgetmenot]

Hello Julian,

so what is the seeking for now? Is it expectations that are appearing or actual seeking?

There is expectation that somehow thoughts have to change....
And sensations....

Yes, so you are aware of those expectations and know that they are expectations. We have comprehensively looked at thoughts, so it is up to you whether or not you see that expectations are too only thoughts.

Is there still seeking going on?

I mean, if there isn´t anyone here, how can all this suffering occur???

You are asking me this question? What is the AE of ‘suffering’? I am not going to convince you whether or not suffering is happening. Have a LOOK and see if you can find anyone/anything that is suffering and what it is exactly that labels sensations etc as suffering? Does the word (= thought) suffering contains any actual suffering?
Does the word 'suffering' have any meaning at all? Do the sensations labelled as suffering contain any actual suffering?

And when the “I do not give a fck” is appearing, how does it feel in the body? Is it lighter or heavier?

That lasted a few days. Not here anymore. Was lighter and kind of frightening....

More expectations…that there should be some sort of huge change in your and in life. We’ve been over this as well, and I don’t recall you saying anything to me about being frightened. What has been seen cannot be unseen.

So, all this happen in the midst of an emotionall situation in life here.... Lots of things moving, but think that the breakup with my gf was what caused all this..... Being honest, pretty sure of that...

And have you looked with AE to what was actually happening…what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought stories are appearing? Did you break down these emotions into AE to see what was actually happening/appearing? Or are you happy to wallow in the pity party of being a 'me' who is suffering because life is lifing and shit happens?

Im not sure of anything heheheheeeeeee....
Really honest.... that change you describe, leaving expectations aside, did not happen here. Perceptual reality and life are perceived the same......

Really? Perceptual reality and life are the same thing! The zen saying “chop wood, carry water before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water after enlightenment” mean exactly that. That everything within the ‘realms’ of the illusion stay the same.

Perception of life changes….means….that even though life continues on in the same way, emotions, sensations, thoughts etc still appear, that there is now a new way to look at them and at life. Yes, that new way of looking at life yo-yo's and is not solid as LOOKING still needs to happen so that the seeing becomes a knowing.

The clearing of beliefs/patterns/conditioning will begin a phase of mixed emotions, intensified sensations including fear, anxiety and anger. There is also a lot of conditioning that still needs to get rewritten, as it certainly doesn't get all rewritten in one hit. Getting sucked into the story of being a separate self will continue to happen, so that we can SEE patterns at work. It's not wrong. It's part of the process. And there is a lot of work to undo all that is no longer serving.

A sense of loss can also appear and is natural when old beliefs are falling away...as is fear and anger. The easy part is the seeing!! But with the seeing through of the core belief of being a separate self you know that the conditioning is not something you own, so it's easier to clear.

When you realised that Santa Claus wasn’t real, did life change? Did you change? Christmas still comes and goes, gifts are still exchanged and Santa is still seen on every street corner at Christmas time. What changed was your perception about who Santa Claus is…..that is, that he isn’t real.

Do not want the blue name :P
Would be realy weird...

Yes, this is true, you don’t want the blue name because there is a fear that if you are turned blue that you are alone, that you won’t have anymore contact or support. There is support after gating. There are LU Facebook groups and I am always available to contact and to continue talking to.

However, there is nowhere else for this exploration to go. Going by all your responses throughout, you have laughed as you have seen through thought stories about AE and how thought overlays AE with stories about time, body, life etc. No one can help you to drop your expectations, only you can do that.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi KAY :)

Still here...

Is there still seeking going on?

Kind of less seeking.

You are asking me this question? What is the AE of ‘suffering’?

Suffering is a label. Points to sensations only. Sensations do not come self-labelled as suffering.

Did you break down these emotions into AE to see what was actually happening/appearing? Or are you happy to wallow in the pity party of being a 'me' who is suffering because life is lifing and shit happens?

Kind of both things happened....
This "me" is only an image, that appears sometimes.
It is ONLY an image.
It can not move a finger, it does not do anything at all, it does not perceive, it does not posses sensations or thoughts, it does not make thoughts appear, it does not identify with thoughts or stop identifying with them, it is not inside a "body" wich is another image, it is not outside a "body", it is just an appearance that is not allways here.


Think really looked in the "time" thing and find it pretty... important,
there is no "this moment" there is no previous moment, and it is just like that, does not matter if an appearing thought claims contrary, does not fckng matter if thought content gets emphazised and a lot of story happen..... It is just happening.


Thank you a lot Kay for clarifying some topics in the last post....

Very gratfull, J.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Julian,

Still here...

I am happy to see that :)

Is there still seeking going on?

Kind of less seeking.

Yes, seeking is still there and will be until more beliefs are seen through and they fall away.
Has that obsessive intensified seeking fallen away…the one that drives everyone crazy because it seems to cause suffering by itself!

You are asking me this question? What is the AE of ‘suffering’?

Suffering is a label. Points to sensations only. Sensations do not come self-labelled as suffering.

Exactly, sensations are simply sensations. Without the story that seems to appear along with the sensation….there would be no idea that the sensation has anything to do with suffering. So when suffering appears…break it down and look at each aspect of AE of suffering and ask if they are what is suffering.

Does the label suffering know anything about suffering?
Does the sensation labelled as suffering know anything about suffering?
Does the colour labelled ‘me’ know anything about suffering?

Can you find anyone/anything in the label, sensation, colour that is suffering…look everywhere to see if you can find what is suffering. And you just keep on doing this each time the idea of suffering appears.

Did you break down these emotions into AE to see what was actually happening/appearing? Or are you happy to wallow in the pity party of being a 'me' who is suffering because life is lifing and shit happens?

Kind of both things happened....

“Kind of both things happened”….yes, and you were aware of both of them happening.
You are aware of the awareness…..yes? You are aware of being aware…yes?

This "me" is only an image, that appears sometimes.
It is ONLY an image.
It can not move a finger, it does not do anything at all, it does not perceive, it does not posses sensations or thoughts, it does not make thoughts appear, it does not identify with thoughts or stop identifying with them, it is not inside a "body" wich is another image, it is not outside a "body", it is just an appearance that is not allways here.

Precisely! And all you have to do is to keep LOOKING until it becomes a knowing. One day (whenever that may be) the looking falls away on its own as there are no stones left to turn.

Think really looked in the "time" thing and find it pretty... important,there is no "this moment" there is no previous moment,

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

and it is just like that, does not matter if an appearing thought claims contrary, does not fckng matter if thought content gets emphazised and a lot of story happen..... It is just happening.

Lovely Julian…exactly. It doesn’t matter what appearing thoughts say or emphasise…they are only stories and to check their validity is simple, have a look with AE

For every thought that comes up, to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace it with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to remains.

So next time ‘suffering’ seemingly appears, do the ‘blahblahblah’ and see if suffering remains. Let me know what you find.

Love, Kay

[JulianS]

Hi Kay :)

Has that obsessive intensified seeking fallen away…the one that drives everyone crazy because it seems to cause suffering by itself!

Yes.... Now its like, doing what needs to be done.

You are aware of the awareness…..yes? You are aware of being aware…yes?

Hmmm... Do not find an "awareness" thing anywhere.... However I understand what you are saying. There is allways noticing, or call it awareness, of whats happening.
Aware of being aware.... Can not negate there is "noticing" or "awareness", but can not pinpoint a particular experience that is called "awareness".

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

Yes.
Anything that happens is just happening in this instant. I mean, this instant IS everything that is happening and no some "time-basis" that is moving....

So next time ‘suffering’ seemingly appears, do the ‘blahblahblah’ and see if suffering remains. Let me know what you find.

Lovely, had to wait till today to some experience labelled "suffering".
So lying in bed, very convincing story of suffering and replaced with blablabla.... At first was shocking, like, OMG, it is only a thought stuff..... Is it??? So story went back and again blabla, and OMG.

So lots of "sensations" being labelled suffering happened during that excercise and just, BOOM, they are JUST sensations!!!! They are not "bad" sensations. They are not saying anything!!!

So, lovely :)




Big hug :) Julian

[forgetmenot]

Hello Julian,

Has that obsessive intensified seeking fallen away…the one that drives everyone crazy because it seems to cause suffering by itself!

Yes.... Now its like, doing what needs to be done.

Wonderful! Lovely to hear :)

So next time ‘suffering’ seemingly appears, do the ‘blahblahblah’ and see if suffering remains. Let me know what you find.

Lovely, had to wait till today to some experience labelled "suffering".
So lying in bed, very convincing story of suffering and replaced with blablabla.... At first was shocking, like, OMG, it is only a thought stuff..... Is it??? So story went back and again blabla, and OMG.

So lots of "sensations" being labelled suffering happened during that excercise and just, BOOM, they are JUST sensations!!!! They are not "bad" sensations. They are not saying anything!!!

So, lovely :)

Wow…..that is great! Each time ‘suffering’ seems to appear….LOOK for that which can suffer and then do the blahblahblah. Great job!

Okay, would like for you to answer the following questions in detail please.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Much love, Kay