The Gate

Hey J,

Nothing has 'shifted' as such but there is a deep silence here. The silence is louder than anything else - sounds, sights, thoughts, sensations. It is like a gap has appeared but I couldn't tell you what that gap is. I can't even say that there is no 'me' here or that there is a 'me' here. I don't even know what a 'me' is apart from a thought.

Wow…deep silence…that is a shift! And not knowing what a ‘me’ is apart from thought….that is absolutely terrific! It is a beginning and it has begun. :)

Earlier today there was a lot of sadness which were just sat with. Or should I say there was a sensation with the label/thought sadness. It passed.

Being with it and just observing it all is the best way to be with whatever is arising…so well done. And as you noticed, everything that appears eventually passes.

You will find that emotions (sensation + thought) will appear more often. Sadness is one, as there seems to be a grieving over the seeming ‘loss’ of the illusory self. Anger and fear may also appear. It’s not known how long this phase lasts, as it is different for everyone.

I have also been experiencing quite strong body sensations again which were just looked at. Most of it is easing now.

Being with those sensations can be difficult, but if you can notice them as well, and when they become stronger, check your breathing and make sure that you are breathing normally…in and out through the nose.


You’ve done some great LOOKING throughout this exploration...thank-you for being so diligent in looking and answering questions to date. Here are some questions to help determine if there are any areas that may still need further exploring. Can you answer with some detail please and answer what's true for you, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer and provide examples where asked.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay

Hi Kay

I really appreciate your thoroughness and for seeing this thing out to the end. Please see my answers below:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

In my experience there is sensation in the body and thoughts - me, I, self but they have lost their power. They are just words equal to tree, computer, water etc. Occasionally, 'I', 'Me' attaches to the sensations and it appears there is a 'me' but this is easily seen through by nearly instant looking.

Was there ever?

I have no way of knowing. I can guess or speculate but there is only here and now. I could make up a story using logic i.e. that there can't have been but that would be just a story.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusory separate self appears when a thought is associated with a body sensation or a judgement is made. I am, I should, I must .... Then there is a buying into a story about a 'me'. For example, for breakfast I had left over lasagne. There was a thought 'is that a good idea? is that healthy? am I looking after the body?'' but then the body went ahead and heated it and I ate it haha.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Nothing has really changed except the silence is very present. There is also a lack of concern (mostly) with a possible future. For example, I have an option of buying a really cheap 4WD but that is in preparation for future possibilities. I see I have no way of knowing what will happen so there is no point in preparing for an unknown with new possibilities that cannot be forseen.

Interestingly, there is no sense of selflessness. There is just life happening. Is it happening to a me? Thought and body sensations could say yes but it doesn't appear that way.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Peace, lack of concern (mostly), a knowing that everything is just happening. But not quite at the stage that I can see it is happening by itself.

It all shifted yesterday so I haven't really had a chance to observe anything more specifically.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was a lot of things, the constant looking with your expert guidance but one other thing that helped was reading in Ilona's book that all she found was emptiness in place of a me. We always think we will find something, but to accept that was is found is 'no-thing' made things clearer. It was also the deep looking with the body sensations. I felt something shift? drop away? hard to explain and then all that was left was the profound silence in which everything is appearing.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

This is still not entirely clear. For example, there was still a decision made not to buy the 4WD. The Looking tells me that there was no me deciding and it just happened but there is still doubt even though I cannot find anyone who could be doing the deciding. Quite a conundrum actually.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

It appears that 'I' am making things happen but I can't find who or what is doing that. There is still a reluctance to accept a lack of agency.

c) What are you responsible for?

Thoughts happen, decisions happen. There is still a pattern of taking ownership. But again I can't find the who or what that could take ownership. It could be just a story, a habit.

d) Give examples from experience.

See the lasagne and 4WD example above.

6) Anything to add?

There is a concern that this deep silence/peace is just a byproduct of meditation. I have experienced this silence before. I spent sometime this morning trying to generate a 'me' while meditating but it could not be done. Just sensations and thoughts that had no impact or life. However, there is still a sense of being (which I believe will always be here) and seeing the world from here. The sense of not seeing the world from here is an expectation I have based on previous awakening experiences.

There is also still a lot of body tensions happening.

I would say that the agency thing is still a sticking point even though there is no 'me' to be found. What the...?????

Any further assistance, ideas, looking are welcome. Thanks Kay.

Cheers J

Hi J,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

In my experience there is sensation in the body and thoughts - me, I, self but they have lost their power. They are just words equal to tree, computer, water etc. Occasionally, 'I', 'Me' attaches to the sensations and it appears there is a 'me' but this is easily seen through by nearly instant looking.

Where exactly is the I/me who is getting attached? How can an illusory I or me, no matter if they are inverted commas or not, attach to anything? There is a story ABOUT a me that SEEMS to be getting attached to a sensation, however are you not fully aware of that story, as stories are made up of thought. And are you not fully aware of the sensations and the stories ABOUT those sensations?

There is no attachment to ‘your’ stories or to the story about an “I” labelled Jeannet.
Your = thought story
Attachment = thought story, riding piggyback on the 'your' thought story.
Thought referring to thought.
Simply notice the story about the story.
See if you're actually in it.
And see if it's actually yours

Was there ever?

I have no way of knowing. I can guess or speculate but there is only here and now. I could make up a story using logic i.e. that there can't have been but that would be just a story.

If the I/me is an illusory character; illusory meaning non-existent, not real, just as Santa Claus is, then how could there ever have been a separate self anywhere at anytime?

For there to have been one is pointing to the ‘past’ and is there such a thing as the ‘past’?

3) How does it feel to see this?

Nothing has really changed except the silence is very present.

So perceptions haven’t changed at all?

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Peace, lack of concern (mostly), a knowing that everything is just happening. But not quite at the stage that I can see it is happening by itself.

And what would "see it is happening by itself" look like exactly? There is an expectation here..what is it?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

This is still not entirely clear. For example, there was still a decision made not to buy the 4WD. The Looking tells me that there was no me deciding and it just happened but there is still doubt even though I cannot find anyone who could be doing the deciding. Quite a conundrum actually.

Why would the idea that decisions are being made change? It seems there are expectations that aren’t been met and because of this, there is doubt about what has been seen.

The idea of a decider isn’t going to disappear, however, it becomes a knowing that there is no decider, no matter what thoughts appear saying there is.

The label ‘doubt’ is AE of thought, not AE of doubt
The thoughts about ‘doubt’ are AE of thought and not AE of doubt
The sensations labelled ‘doubt’ are AE of sensation and not AE of doubt
The image/colour labelled ‘I/me/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of doubt

So what is actually appearing is sensation + colour + label/thought. Can a doubter be found in sensation, colour, label/thoughts?

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

It appears that 'I' am making things happen but I can't find who or what is doing that. There is still a reluctance to accept a lack of agency.

What is it exactly that is reluctant to “accept a lack of agency”? And where is this “I” located?

c) What are you responsible for?

Thoughts happen, decisions happen. There is still a pattern of taking ownership. But again I can't find the who or what that could take ownership. It could be just a story, a habit.

Ummm…”it could be just a story, a habit”. LOOK and check!

6) Anything to add?

There is a concern that this deep silence/peace is just a byproduct of meditation. I have experienced this silence before. I spent sometime this morning trying to generate a 'me' while meditating but it could not be done. Just sensations and thoughts that had no impact or life. However, there is still a sense of being (which I believe will always be here) and seeing the world from here. The sense of not seeing the world from here is an expectation I have based on previous awakening experiences.

And you hit the nail right on the head that the “previous awakening” is only an experience, and it is the desire and expectation that seeing through the separate self will bring about a never ending deep silence/peace, so you can live happily ever after in Cinderella land! Experiences come and go, just as do silences, just as the toing and froing with the idea of an “I”. Which will continue to happen for some time.

Silence is no different to sound. Only thought says some 'thing' isn't there. Darkness is just a colour, like any other, no different from light. Thought labels darkness as the absence of some 'thing' but it is no less knowing/known than light is.
Empty space is no different to solid matter, it is still a some 'thing', not a lack of some 'thing' . THIS is never empty of missing anything.

There is also still a lot of body tensions happening.

Where is this body? Describe it to me! There is an expectation that when seeing through the illusory self that ‘body’ sensations should no longer happen? Well, they don’t disappear forever, just like thoughts don’t disappear forever. However, the perception of them changes, because it is known that all that is appearing is sensation + label/thoughts about the sensation.

I would say that the agency thing is still a sticking point even though there is no 'me' to be found. What the...?????

I don’t think that the agency thing is the sticking point. It is your expectations of what you were hoping would happen when the illusory self was seen through, and your expectations on how that would look etc that is the sticking point. You wrote above that “the sense of not seeing the world from here is an expectation I have based on previous awakening experiences” and your previous awakening experience was not it, if it were you wouldn’t be here at LU. Trying to recapture experiences that, to you, is what the awakening experience should be is a hindrance because if it doesn’t look like what you want/expect it to look like, then nothing else will do.

You wrote the following as one of your answers when you registered for the forum…and this is what you are wanting to happen.

“A spontaneous awakening 20 years ago has left me trying anything and everything. Have had some success with some practices such as awareness practices, headless way, insight meditation and other things. Currently not subscribed to any particular practice but meditation has become a strong habit using choiceless awareness”.

What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectation'.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay

When I first read your post I was shocked. But now I see how funny mine was. I just want to laugh.

What a silly choice of words I used. Of course nothing can attach to a nothing etc.

So perceptions haven’t changed at all?

And of course perceptions have changed. There is no 'me' here. It was so obvious I couldn't see it as a change in perception.

And what would "see it is happening by itself" look like exactly? There is an expectation here..what is it?

This one is really funny. If there is no me here then of course everything is happening by itself.

Can a doubter be found in sensation, colour, label/thoughts?

More laughter. Absolutely not.

What is it exactly that is reluctant to “accept a lack of agency”? And where is this “I” located?

Very funny who / what can accept this?

What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectation'.

The most funny.

I am so happy for this final post because it knocked expectation right out of the park. I can see how they block the seeing of this. I could go on a rant about how 'spiritual' books talk this stuff up but I guess we all know that.

All that is seen through is the perception of an illusory I, me, self which never existed in the first place.

Millions of thanks Kay.

Cheers J

Hey J,

What a pleasure it was to read your post...and relief as well! haha!

Now, I would like to ask you to answer the same questions again, and can you answer question in detail please.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Much love, Kay

Hi Kay

Forgive the delay just sitting with all of this for a couple of days. So here goes:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is absolutely no separate entity, nothing, nada. If there is none now there was never one ever.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is misattributing the sense of being alive to a label called me and then believing it is an entity that has a separate existence outside of sensation, thoughts. I saw it develop in my niece. One day when she was nearly three she visited and had a 'self'. Everything became 'I want', because 'I said so'. She was exercising her new found toy. Before that she was just pure joy. Very soon she will begin to believe it and it will solidify into the belief of a separate entity.

Now it is simply a thought, a label with no power to do anything. The thought, me , I etc has no more power to do anything that the thought icecream, coffee, tree. It means nothing other sensation and words.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating, a sense of freedom. Life can now just live itself. Before there was a sense of a me doing, deciding, controlling, defending etc. There was a separation between me and the world. Now all is just the stuff that is happening.
I admit I did experience some sadness, not because I lost a me coz there never was one, but because it isn't anything like expectations make it out to be. There is just life, living as it has always done.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Haha. Letting go of expectations was crucial. It is so unlike any mystical experience I have had in the past. There is just peace, a space which in itself is liberating without needing any bells or whistles.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

None of these exist as there is no one to do these things. There maybe an appearance of these things but that is just thought usually commenting after the event has happened.

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things just happen by themselves. There is no way of knowing what makes things happen. I could say conditioning, habit patterns etc but that would just be mind telling a story.

c) What are you responsible for?

There is no you to be responsible for anything.

d) Give examples from experience.

Thought to do something arises, it is done or not done. Another thought arises and it is done or not done. Sometimes actions happen, sometimes they don't. Yet oddly everything gets done. This post, for example, just happened spontaneously now and not yesterday, not this morning. Why did it happen now? Nobody knows.

6) Anything to add?

I really want say how grateful I am for your help and assistance in the looking. For crashing through my expectations, for not giving up even when I felt I was. For helping me see through the things I couldn't see. Your commitment brings tears to my eyes. THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!!!!

Love J

Hey J,

Thank you for your wonderful answers. It has been my pleasure, and thank you for your willingness and diligence in LOOKING.

I am going to get other guides to read your thread to make sure that I have covered everything and that I have pointed succinctly. There may or may not be further questions for you. This process may take a couple of days, so I will contact you when I hear from the other guides.

Love, Kay
xx

Thanks Kay for your diligence too.

Cheers J

Good morning J,

Welcome to LU! There are no further questions. It has been a pleasure walking with you to the 'gate' and thank you for your willingness and diligence to LOOK.

What happens from here, is that you will receive a email notification of a private message (PM) from the forum inviting you to join LU Aftercare on Facebook, and also a list of other resources available to you. Keep an eye out for that email.

If at any time you have further questions, or would like to give back by becoming a guide, please don't hesitate in contacting me.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay

Thanks for following up. I will wait for the aftercare invite which I think is a fantastic thing to offer and very important. As is your offer to answer further questions.

I would love to give back by guiding but you guys are so skilful I would need training for that. Also would like some time at the moment to sit with this.

Thank you again for your fabulous assistance and guiding. And hopefully talk with you again soon

Love J

Hey J,

An email notification from the forum has been sent to you re the invitation to Aftercare. Please let me know if you have not received it.

Training to become a guide is provided. But yes, I agree with you to just sit for awhile and just let everything settle! When you feel you are ready to further investigate, you can contact me on FB or via the forum, or, if you prefer, you can ask for another guide.

Love, Kay

Hi Kay

Thanks for following up. The invitation has not arrived. I have checked my junk email folder and its not in there either. Could you send it again.

Would love to investigate further in near future.

Cheers J

Hey J,

I see you got the invitation and you have been added to the Aftercare group. You can contact me at anytime via FB or the forum PM system.

Love, Kay