I "get" no-self but have no experience of it

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Glad that you see there is not a separate self :)

What do you feel might be missing?

I am not quite sure about what I am missing but I will try to articulate it -- I completely agree that there is no separate self but I am confused about the following :

1. Though there is no separate individual me, there is a clear sense of being that seems to be active (at least when I am awake). So, while there is no real, separate self, would it be accurate to say that there is a single, unified, global self? Or that there is Being instead of many individual selfs? I know this sounds theoretical but what really bothers me is that I am not able to reconcile the "sense of being" with the non-existence of self.

2. I am only able to "see" that there is no self when I reflect upon it or really pay attention to my experience. So, I wonder if the idea of "no self" is just one other idea that my mind made up

3. In some sense, what I can see is that the "opposite of no-self is not true". That is, there is no reason or possibility for the existence of a separate self. But, I am unable to quite see "no-self" itself. Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" :-) The problem seems to be that I am able to see the impossibility -- but am unable to see what remains!

Yes. It is like that. You still may get caught up in a story which then causes a reaction occurs, but once noticed it quickly drops. There is nothing at the centre or hub that it can stick to.

That is a relief! I can see that, consistently, once one notices the story, it drops (almost shamefacedly :-) ).

As you are doing please continue to keep looking. Watch the 'I' stories. Closely notice choices, intentions, and decision making.

Thanks. I will do so with greater focus now.

Was there ever a General Manager of 'your' particular part of the universe?

I must admit that there never was. I am suddenly reminded of "It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing." :-)

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Though there is no separate individual me, there is a clear sense of being that seems to be active (at least when I am awake). So, while there is no real, separate self, would it be accurate to say that there is a single, unified, global self? Or that there is Being instead of many individual selfs? I know this sounds theoretical but what really bothers me is that I am not able to reconcile the "sense of being" with the non-existence of self.

Is there anything to reconcile between a "sense of being" and the non existent self? Surely you are trying to reconcile a sense of being with nothing?!

We do have a sense of being or aliveness and within that it is noticed that there isn't a separate self running the show, just thoughts describing a character living out a role.

You could call it Unified Mind or Non-Duality, or Big Mind,and some even use the G word but we are better off (for our purpose here) to remain with direct experience. There are various ways you can explore these themes when we have finished our conversation.

I am only able to "see" that there is no self when I reflect upon it or really pay attention to my experience. So, I wonder if the idea of "no self" is just one other idea that my mind made up.

This is an astute observation.

We need to make sure that you don't just switch beliefs from belief in a self to belief in no self but nothing much happens deeper than that. The thing to do now is remain relaxed but keep looking and allow the realization to unfold (or shift to occur depending on how you see these things). That's why it is also important to remain in touch with how you feel and note any changes like lightness and happiness etc. Also bear in mind that the shift can be really subtle for some (and more marked for others).

You seem to have seen what needs to be seen so part of the process now simply involves dealing with any doubts or confusions, as we currently are.

The rest of your post is bang on the money so why don't we go nice and easy. Take your time, allow the process to unfold, whilst still being attentive, and we will deal with Sherlock Holmes later if we still need to :)

Well done.

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Is there anything to reconcile between a "sense of being" and the non existent self? Surely you are trying to reconcile a sense of being with nothing?!

Thanks Michael! This was brilliantly clear. I can see the error I was making. I can see now that there is nothing to reconcile here.

This is an astute observation. We need to make sure that you don't just switch beliefs from belief in a self to belief in no self but nothing much happens deeper than that. The thing to do now is remain relaxed but keep looking and allow the realization to unfold (or shift to occur depending on how you see these things). That's why it is also important to remain in touch with how you feel and note any changes like lightness and happiness etc. Also bear in mind that the shift can be really subtle for some (and more marked for others).

Thanks. I shall now stick with this process.

You seem to have seen what needs to be seen so part of the process now simply involves dealing with any doubts or confusions, as we currently are.

Ok. A question/clarification -- I had earlier referred to feeling that when I pay deep attention to an object, it seems to be part of "self". What I had intended to say was that the object seems to be part and parcel of my experience of Being. That is, I am unable to distinguish between "my" sense of being and the object. Is this accurate seeing? Please do let me know if I am not seeing this correctly.

The rest of your post is bang on the money so why don't we go nice and easy. Take your time, allow the process to unfold, whilst still being attentive, and we will deal with Sherlock Holmes later if we still need to :)

Will do. Should I still check in everyday or only if I have some explicit doubt, experience, insight, etc?

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Glad you have seen through a sense of being and there not being a self as a false dichotomy, or non conflict.

A question/clarification -- I had earlier referred to feeling that when I pay deep attention to an object, it seems to be part of "self". What I had intended to say was that the object seems to be part and parcel of my experience of Being. That is, I am unable to distinguish between "my" sense of being and the object. Is this accurate seeing? Please do let me know if I am not seeing this correctly.

I think language can get difficult with these kinds of points and that people perhaps see and express things in different ways.

To answer in two parts.

To come clean (!) I never fully understood what you meant earlier in our conversation when you said that when you pay attention to an object it seems to be part of "self". However I didn't conclude that you were seeing 'wrongly' but that you simply experience things differently from me, and/or that you see things the same way, but that expression is different.

Now you are saying that the object seems to be part of your Being and that you are unable to distinguish between "my" (your) sense of being and the object. Again language is difficult here but this seems to be a description of non duality which would indicate absence of self. In my own experience I tend to describe things / occurrences as a field of perception that seem to occur in nothing. It is not an issue of right and wrong here but of how folk may be describing the same things differently.

For me as a guide now it is tricky as also although I need to affirm when you are seeing things clearly It is not up to me to confirm whether you have truly seen or not.

That final question can only be answered by you so here goes:

Do you think you have you have truly and unequivocally seen no separate self?

If you answer "yes" I will present you with a series of final questions.

If it is "no" we will address any final doubts or questions that may come up.

Warmly,

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

For me as a guide now it is tricky as also although I need to affirm when you are seeing things clearly It is not up to me to confirm whether you have truly seen or not.

Thanks. What you say makes perfect sense.

That final question can only be answered by you so here goes:

Do you think you have you have truly and unequivocally seen no separate self?

No. I cannot say that I have truly and unequivocally seen it. I am certain now that it is true but I as of now it is still not experientially true.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

I spent time over the weekend going over the posts and reflecting, and somewhere, there was a shift! It was mild, and very subtle, but for a moment, I had clarity. So, I have new answer to this question

That final question can only be answered by you so here goes:

Do you think you have you have truly and unequivocally seen no separate self?

Yes, I have. It was brief and the "experience" is not around currently, but I have seen it. I am ready for any questions to confirm the seeing.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Great news!

Ok then, the final questions. Once you have sent me your answers I will post them on the LU Facebook page where other guides can take a look at what you've written. They may have more questions for you, not because anything you have written will be wrong, just looking for absolute clarity. Please answer fully and with your usual 100% looking :) Here you go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Take your time Sadhaka. I am traveling with my son so there is no time pressure. (Though I am looking forward to your answers!). Any doubts or problems don't worry we will sort them out.

Your very happy guide,

Michael.

[sadhaka]

Thanks Michael!

I too am traveling for the next 4 days (till Saturday) but will probably post the replies some time in the middle of the trip as I expect to have time in the evenings. In any case, I will take my time and post what is 100% true.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Sounds like a plan. You could also post in two halves of three answers each (or any other configuration) if breaking it down helps.

Enjoy your travels!

Michael

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Back in the UK now and sorted. How are you doing?

Warm regards,

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Back today as well! I had full plans of posting while traveling, but despite best efforts could not. I will be posting the answers in the next few hours one by one.

Thanks,
sadhaka

[sadhaka]

Hi Micahel,

I am posting the answers one at a time :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There is no separate "self". There never was one and there never will be one.

[MichaelD]

Hi Sadhaka,

Great.

We aren't limited to one post a day so feel free to keep them coming if you have answered any more.

Yours,

Michael

[sadhaka]

Hi Michael,

Sorry. Was unable to post continuously yesterday due to being at home. I will probably post the rest of the answers today. The second one

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The basic illusion is this -- There is no separate, permanent, stable entity that can be labelled as a ‘me’ and yet there appears to be one in experience.

As I see it currently, the illusion can be seen through but it never really starts or ends. It is like the illusion of a sky which is blue and shaped like a dome. All of us know that the sky is not a solid, blue dome which is out there and, indeed, can even see through this illusion. However, on a day to day basis it does not stop looking that way. Nor did the illusion ever begin with a particular event. Any time one looks carelessly at the sky, it appears to be a solid dome. When seen with a perceiving eye the solidity disappears.

There also seem to be various subtle aspects (and perhaps, levels) to this illusion. However, in all cases, the illusion seems to work through identification and misattribution. Facts are mixed with assumptions and an assumption of a “self” arises. Some examples in experience
Fact : There is experience. Assumption : There is an experiencer. Result : Experiencer = Self
Fact : There is a sense of existence/being. Assumption : There is a Being who is experiencing this self. Result : Being = Self
Fact : There is thought/intention. Assumption : There is a thinker/person who wills. Result : Thinker = Self

[sadhaka]

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There have been a couple of days where I felt a deep sense of freedom and one day when I felt directionless. Other days felt largely normal (with some subtle changes mentioned below). However, even on these days, the feeling has changed depending (perhaps) on the extent to which the illusion is seen in the moment.

The primary important changes have been:
a) An absence of stress following distressing events. To be clear, there was a feeling of stress during the events but the stress dissipated rapidly, post-event. The stress just appeared as stress rather than “my stress”

b) The inability to take several of my previous life goals seriously. These have simply dropped out (at least for the moment).

c) The previous strong desire for rapid spiritual progress is now gone. As is the previous certainty on what spirituality is and what progress entails. Reality now seems like a fascinating and exciting mystery, which is too grand to be understood by a mind or a self.