Living in enlightenment

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Now let's look at things like 'Control', 'Free will', ''Decisions', 'Choices'.

What is your take on these?

I don't think control is an actual thing since experiences occur in their own manner uninfluenced by the self. The free will also becomes another thought since it is recognized, being in the recognition is evidence of thought. I believe they are all relative truths that help in the understanding of daily life but are not fundamentally true. Life is as is. Decisions and choices are lost where control is absent.

Is there a self that controls events?

I don't think so since the self is an illusion. A mental creation.

Does so.some choose or decide?

It feels amazing to believe that the self has made a decision, I believe the experience was inclusive of the decision taken and so the self makes no choice since he or she is absent in the present moment.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thanks for your answers to my latest questions. That's all great.

If you like I can present you with a couple of exercises that can really show in a very clear way that ''choices' and 'decisions' are not really being taken by a self? The purpose of these would simply be to show it beyond any doubt. Would you like to try a couple of these?

Otherwise, can you say with a big fat 'yes' that it has been seen that there is no separate self? If you have any doubts about this now would be a good time to mention them.

Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

If you like I can present you with a couple of exercises that can really show in a very clear way that ''choices' and 'decisions' are not really being taken by a self? The purpose of these would simply be to show it beyond any doubt. Would you like to try a couple of these?

yes the exercises are welcomed, thank you.

Otherwise, can you say with a big fat 'yes' that it has been seen that there is no separate self? If you have any doubts about this now would be a good time to mention them.

I can see from observation in the exercises we have done that the self I hold dearly is untrue. I cant help but notice how the same notion of separate self keeps on passively, i find myself hoping for a brighter tomorrow for Eutychus and I forget that all happens as it is.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eurychus,

. . I cant help but notice how the same notion of separate self keeps on passively, i find myself hoping for a brighter tomorrow for Eutychus and I forget that all happens as it is.

The idea of separation can show up. Almost like 'falling asleep' into the dream of duality and believing in a 'me' that is 'separate' from everything else. Can thoughts be prevented from appearing? No, including the thought 'me'. These times are always an opportunity to see the illusion at play.

Is it 'Eutychus' that hopes for a brighter future? Or thought about a 'brighter future' that appears, along with an energetic sensation that could be labelled 'hoping'? And perhaps other thoughts that tend to carry the reference 'me' or 'my'?

Ok, here are a couple of useful exercises:

Choice. It appears that there is choice between alternatives and an assumption that 'I choose'. Now, place both your hands on a table surface. In a moment one hand must be raised into the air whilst leaving the other on the table. Look for the very moment that a choice is made. Is it possible to notice that moment of choice being made somewhere? Is there a chooser doing that?

Decision: There can be the idea that 'I decide' about all sorts of things. Let's look at this and test it though. In a moment, go and make yourself a drink. This can be any kind of drink. Then come back here to look at the following questions...


Did you notice a decision to stand up? Was a decision taken to start walking? In walking, were there many decisions about how legs must move in a certain way so as not to fall over? Was a decision made about the type of drink? Was there a decision about filling the kettle or pouring the drink, or did that happen as if automatically?

This exercise about decisions can be adapted to all sorts of events, such as looking for car keys or driving from A to B, always taking a look for the decision, to see if one is being made somewhere in a mental control room.

'Does it seem to you that what we label as 'choices and decisions' are somehow happening all the time. The question is, can the chooser be found making choices, can a decider be found deciding? Are these 'made' or do they happen and then thoughts appear saying 'I chose', 'I decided'?



Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

The idea of separation can show up. Almost like 'falling asleep' into the dream of duality and believing in a 'me' that is 'separate' from everything else.

I see your point here, I am aware of the non separation in all of life.

Can thoughts be prevented from appearing? No, including the thought 'me'. These times are always an opportunity to see the illusion at play.

Amazing

Choice. It appears that there is choice between alternatives and an assumption that 'I choose'. Now, place both your hands on a table surface. In a moment one hand must be raised into the air whilst leaving the other on the table. Look for the very moment that a choice is made. Is it possible to notice that moment of choice being made somewhere? Is there a chooser doing that?

There is no choices ,no control room haha. I see that all flows with synchronously without error, almost automatic but it cant be so since it is happening in the unfolding moment. The actions are most alive and yet no choices are ever made.

Decision: There can be the idea that 'I decide' about all sorts of things. Let's look at this and test it though. In a moment, go and make yourself a drink. This can be any kind of drink. Then come back here to look at the following questions...

Experience is happening in different planes synchronously, both internal thoughts and external sensations to the body occur without any form of control room and yet all experiences are fully alive. So much life shouting from every experience. There is recognizing.

Is all life but a recognition.

Does it seem to you that what we label as 'choices and decisions' are somehow happening all the time. The question is, can the chooser be found making choices, can a decider be found deciding? Are these 'made' or do they happen and then thoughts appear saying 'I chose', 'I decided'?

There are no choices or decisions, nor deciders. The design of life is perfect and alive without previous instructions being given concerning it

[JonathanR]

Hi Eutychus,

There is no choices ,no control room haha. I see that all flows with synchronously without error, almost automatic but it cant be so since it is happening in the unfolding moment. The actions are most alive and yet no choices are ever made.

True and yet there is often the appearance that 'I choose'?

Experience is happening in different planes synchronously, both internal thoughts and external sensations to the body occur without any form of control room and yet all experiences are fully alive. So much life shouting from every experience. There is recognizing.

Great. Seeing this now, do you feel differently from the way you did at the start of our conversation?

Is all life but a recognition.

Very interesting ,isn't it?

There are no choices or decisions, nor deciders. The design of life is perfect and alive without previous instructions being given concerning it

Beautiful. Now, is it clearly seen and unambiguous that there never was, isn't and never will be a separate self?

love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

True and yet there is often the appearance that 'I choose'?

Its amazing, it is appearing as though I choose but knowing what is,makes this thought harmless. It is part of the experience and carries its own function even though it is not fundamentally true.

Great. Seeing this now, do you feel differently from the way you did at the start of our conversation?

There is a sensation of life sprouting from within and it is all over. I feel young, opportunistic and vibrant. There is amazingly less mental chatter or none at all. I feel part of it all. I have no idea what happens next and not concerned about it either.

Beautiful. Now, is it clearly seen and unambiguous that there never was, isn't and never will be a separate self?

Yes indeed, i am still grasping the beauty of it all. So vast

[Eutychus]

Is all life but a recognition.
Very interesting ,isn't it?

There is no mother to life apart from recognition, she presents it all. The self although being an illusion is a beautiful element of recognition which allows 'participation' in life's recognition. It is amazing because all things stem from recognition.

Life is recognizing in action.

[Eutychus]

Life is the recognition of Love being

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thank you for such beautiful posts!

. There is a sensation of life sprouting from within and it is all over. I feel young, opportunistic and vibrant. There is amazingly less mental chatter or none at all. I feel part of it all. I have no idea what happens next and not concerned about it either.

Ha ha! Wonderful!

. Yes indeed, i am still grasping the beauty of it all. So vast

So true. Will you ever grasp it?

. There is no mother to life apart from recognition, she presents it all. The self although being an illusion is a beautiful element of recognition which allows 'participation' in life's recognition. It is amazing because all things stem from recognition.

That is so lovely.

Thanks again for your posts.

I'd like to ask you six specific questions now. Are you ready for them?

Love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thanks a lot, sure am ready.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

You're a great guy, you know?

I'll post you the first three, you can take a look at them and answer each. I'll send the second three after that.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

love

Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

Thanks and I truly appreciate

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There hasn't and never will be a self for it has no purpose to serve. The thoughts of self are still frequent, they are weak and can be easily dispelled. At times the thoughts are passive, making them difficult to catch. Especially when i'm in a room and people are making references to themselves. There is an emptiness when I look for myself and I am easily returned to enjoying the moment. Beautiful feeling. I'm hoping to be constantly in the moment.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is most correct that it is referred to as the illusion of the self as opposed to the self. The self arises when thoughts; which occur naturally, are given attention to over the experience of the moment. Once attention is gained to the thoughts, it develops the self based on the experience(s) it so loved. Since experiences are always changing, the self that is based on a particular experience(s) tries to rectify the change by creating thoughts to support its reality. Since it is not agreeing with the moment that always is, suffering begins as a natural alarm system calling for attention to be brought back from the thoughts to the moment.

The self is attention drawn to thoughts; away from the moment.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is peacefully fulfilling and over abundant.

It is interesting and engaging as is.
.

[JonathanR]

Hey Eutychus,

Thanks for your answers,

Once attention is gained to the thoughts, it develops the self based on the experience(s) it so loved.

How does a self manage to love certain experiences if it never existed?

the self that is based on a particular experience(s) tries to rectify the change by creating thoughts to support its reality.

Well, we can agree that thoughts do appear and they may well refer to 'me' or 'my' or 'I'. But is there an entity anywhere that can be found to be 'creating thoughts'?

Surely there is the appearance of a thinker of thoughts? But is that one ever to be found?

Love,
Jon

[Eutychus]

Hey Jon,

How does a self manage to love certain experiences if it never existed?

Very true, the self must have already have existed.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is a self existing as a group of thoughts, they are different from what I am, I am able to recognize them.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Separate self is where I choose to believe that I am separated from everything else. I cant describe it though. I am able to see the differences in appearances and shapes and forms of different things but they are not so different from what I am; we are all happening now as one.

Well, we can agree that thoughts do appear and they may well refer to 'me' or 'my' or 'I'. But is there an entity anywhere that can be found to be 'creating thoughts'?

There is greater clarity this way, I see what I missed.

Surely there is the appearance of a thinker of thoughts? But is that one ever to be found?

Amazing, there is no thinker yet there is the appearance of a thinker,

I see