The Gate

Hi Pal,

Yes it's a dream that I still have, to wake up "completely" with a "big bang" like I believe Tolle and Katie did and be in total presence all the time. A dream to never suffer anymore. But I see that it can happen the other way, a gradual wakeup.

Do you know for sure that they have been in total presence all the time since they had their first experience? Didn't they each spend at least 3 years on a park bench or in the dessert? Didn't Katie do The Work to 'clean up'?

I think I read/heard here in this forum (Elena or Ilona writing/saying it) that once you have seen it, it can never be unseen - so the shift is permanent. I thought permanent meant also constant, but those are two different things. I think my seeing of the no self is permanent, but not constant as I get tricked back into the "old way" again. So that is an expectation, now it seems to be falling away too.

Yes, the shift is permanent, it may not always be remembered 100% but you always 'know' the truth. It takes time for the mind/body to decondition. I heard Ramana Maharshi said it's like a shutting off a ceiling fan....the spinning happens for awhile even though the switch was turned off.

xox
Kathy

Do you know for sure that they have been in total presence all the time since they had their first experience? Didn't they each spend at least 3 years on a park bench or in the dessert? Didn't Katie do The Work to 'clean up

No I don't know. It's my story of them. A beautiful dream.

Hi Pal,

Let's go over our final questions one more time.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

xoxo
Kathy

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I can't see anything separate.I have never seen it. There is none.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Primarily for me it's been the delusion that I am this body. That "I" exist inside of this. Then there are things happening and as this body interacts, it is easy to believe that this is the "I" doing. The identification with the body started with my parents teaching me that "I", "Pål" is this and that and it was believed. This is how the illusion of the separate self starts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It's not a big thing. Nothing really happened during the past few days. I did a through looking a little more than a month ago, when I clearly saw that there is nothing here. It is all just experienced.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the question: "Is there a separate controller or manager?". I looked and I couldn't find any.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision: there can be realization that a decision is needed. Then there is a lot of thoughts going on telling "deciding this, deciding that". Then something happens and it shows what the decision was. Until it happens there was no decision. Only thoughts.

Intention: recurring thoughts about how to shape the future. These thoughts are experienced as attractive. An opening towards a future path. For example: I have the intention to stay with my children, letting them live in my apartment. It doesn't mean that it will happen. It means that there is an opening towards that path.

Free will: there is no free will. It appears as the apparent self takes decisions, but things happen and then then I believe it was "I" that did it, that "I" take credit for it. It happens very quickly after things happen. This I can clearly see when doing simple exercises, such as raising my hand.

Choice: choice is no different from decision.

Control: "I" think "I want to do this" and things happening according to that: I experience control. If it doesn't happen accordingly: I experience no control. It's like free will, I think I can control, but really things happen and then there's the illusion that "I" controlled it happening.

There is nothing here that makes things happen. Things evolve. Reality unfolds. It just happens and there is just experience.

Regarding responsibility, Katie says "my business is to take care of my thoughts". That is true in one sense but ultimately event that is not controllable. It could happen that thoughts are being taken care of though i.e. using The Work. But what took that decision then. So there is no responsibility whatsoever. If I don't do anything and stay in bed all day the world/reality goes on. If I decide (it is decided) to do things, the world goes on anyhow. The story told could be different though.

6) Anything to add?

I think I can clearly see the absence of the self. There was no big shift, more like a confirmation/convincing of what I had already seen.

Pål

Dear Pal,

One the guides has a question for you:

Regarding Q 5: Is a decision and intention any different to any other appearing thought. or are they also just thoughts which are labelled as a 'deciding thought/decision' and as an 'intention'?

Thanks Pal.

Kathy

Regarding Q 5: Is a decision and intention any different to any other appearing thought. or are they also just thoughts which are labelled as a 'deciding thought/decision' and as an 'intention'?

No, they are not different. They are thoughts, they are perceived the same as an inner vision or voice, telling me something. Intention, like I said, has an attraction to it. But it's still a thought.

Hi Pal,

A couple of more questions from some of my fellow guides:

1.What is lacking in terms of being fully convinced of the absence of a separate self? Please do use your own words/style.

2. Can you clarify ...
"Then there is a lot of thoughts going on telling "deciding this, deciding that". Then something happens and it shows what the decision was. Until it happens there was no decision"

Can a thought decide? Can a thought think?
How is a decision taken in direct experience?

xox
Kathy

1.What is lacking in terms of being fully convinced of the absence of a separate self? Please do use your own words/style.

The story doesn't let go. I'm still identified with it and the depression it causes. I wish I wasn't, but it hasn't happened yet.
It's a lot of "I must this, I must that, I'm so this, I'm so that". I'm unconsciously sucked back into identification as the separate I. So, only when I actively look, I see that there's no self here. There's a lack of trust.

Can a thought decide? Can a thought think?
How is a decision taken in direct experience?

No, a thought cannot decide. A thought can happen about future and then reality unfolds either according to the contents of that thought or not. If it's accordingly, it's a coincidence or synchronicity. And it's really obvious when I see that a thought cannot think in itself. The thought happens and there's some contents in it, the story. But the thought doesn't decide, it can't do that. It's just a thought. And I find no other entity that takes decisions either, when I look. So obviously it just happens. So, there's not even a decision, even that is an illusion.

Pål

Hi Pal,

"It's a lot of "I must this, I must that, I'm so this, I'm so that"." Can you see that this is old habit ? "only when I actively look, I see that there's no self here." How many years of conditioning did it take to get these habits established ? ..and how many years of reinforcement since? How many times will you have to look before you know what you will (not) find ?
Have you ever gone from a car with the handbrake (or gear lever) on the dash to one with it between the seats ? How instantly did you stop reaching for the old position ? It sound like you have expectations of magic. That you will instantly drop old habits. When you reach for the old gear lever position, do you berate yourself and get disappointed ? ..or do you just smile and wait for it to stop happening ?If you clearly see that there is no controller, no decider, running the show, what is missing ?

Kathy

Hm, I don't really think I'm through. Obviously I haven't given this inquiry much attention for a while.

Pal,

What is your depression want? Close your eyes, sit with it and talk to it like a long time friend. Ask it what it wants? Invite it in. It's been with you a long time, love it and thank it....talk to it and ask it why it hangs around? Is it protecting?

Kathy

Looking for new guide.

Hello.
I was here about three years ago because I was desperate due to a life crisis.
I saw some things very clearly but it was obvious I had to deal with what was going on at the time first, even though, of course, it was also part of the awakening.

I’m in different position today. But triggered by an Adyshanti question: “What if you ask the question ‘Who am I?’ as if your whole life depended on it?!” I came to think about LU again.

I think I’d need a new guide since the last one recommended it a while ago.

Pål

Excellent Pål, Well, you know the drill... Answer every question, reply every day, and besides the answers, tell me what is happening as you consider the questions.

I’m in different position today.

What is different?

But triggered by an Adyshanti question:

What was the experience as the triggering happened?

I came to think about LU again.

Had seeking ceased until this trigger occurred?

I think I’d need a new guide

There is some pleasure here with the thought that you chose me to accompany you in this endeavor. Why me?

with love

vince

Thank you Vince for guiding me!

Excellent Pål, Well, you know the drill... Answer every question, reply every day, and besides the answers, tell me what is happening as you consider the questions.

It says it will. (From now on I'm just going to write 'I' for shorthand)

What is different?

In essence I¨m much more forgiving and loving towards 'myself'. A lot of the self criticism is gone. Actually I remember from last time, probably as some kind of key thing...: what is this 'I' that doesn't love 'what'? As there is no 'I' to be found, who is it that doesn't love who? Really? Nothing doesn't love nothing. Still there was a whole lot of suffering and I did intense work with inner child healing and to put it as accurately as I can: the story told about 'me' is kinder, much more forgiving, sweeter. When attacking starts happening, it realizes it's pointless and kindness comes in instead. In a sense nothing really changed about believing in an 'I', although the story changed mood. It was needed.

What was the experience as the triggering happened?

There was a temporary stop. The more I look on it seems a very elegantly designed question. Koan-like.

Had seeking ceased until this trigger occurred?

No, not really, the reason I watched the video where Adya asks this question is that it has intesified during last year. It started with me being more and more comitted to honesty, and that begun about a year ago when I met my current partner. I was so tired of the lies I used to tell to get "love", and the subsequent pain. So I devoted to absolute honesty, which was very scary at first but which brought about some very interesting changes in my relationships, both to my partner and also to my dying mother (deceased in July). Following all of that attention has turned more and more inward, with listening and contemplation.

There is some pleasure here with the thought that you chose me to accompany you in this endeavor. Why me?

I didn't. I emailed admin about a new guide and this response showed up.

I realize when jumping on this again, that like before, I'm inclined to:
- get slightly provoked by questions as if they were an interrogation
- try to give the right answer

I will try to see it and try to give the honest answer.

Good evening Pål.

I realize when jumping on this again, that like before, I'm inclined to:
- get slightly provoked by questions as if they were an interrogation

An interrogation would be me looking to find out things about you in order to judge you.
i am more interested in what you experience while considering the question than i am in the answer. The answer may give some insight into that experience (or not)
As I am a responding to a story, so are you. It's your story that i need you to become aware of. ..and in so doing, it will change.

- try to give the right answer

There is no right answer.
Answer this; is 'right' & 'wrong' defined by cult(ure)? ..or is there some objective, external, objective 'right & wrong'?
Let's go one step further; you see something or hear something. Where does the experience of seeing or hearing happen?

In essence I¨m much more forgiving and loving towards 'myself'.

So would i be right in saying that you judge yourself now in a more lenient way?

As there is no 'I' to be found, who is it that doesn't love who? Really? Nothing doesn't love nothing.

You are going a step too far. Just because you can't find an I, doesn't mean that there is nothing there. At best you can say (accurately) that it is unknown.
..in fact, from the perspective of the organism with the label Pål, tell me one thing that is known? One absolute knowing?

with love

vince