Self Banishing Rituals

[deesee]

Good morning Donald! Reading your posts was a very nice way to start the day. Thank you for the Hafiz poem! I'm happy to know that you are seeing experimentally that a separate self is an illusion.

We usually ask some questions to check if something is still unclear. Here are the first 3. Take your time with them, there is no need to rush:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

1) There is no true entity "self" separate from the rest of experience except in appearances. Those appearances have however created a confusion or ignorance.

There is no true individual personal identity, but there appear to be clusters of identity complexes existing primarily in the "collective unconscious".

These conditioned clusters of data, in the form of ideas, feelings, interpretations, and tendencies, appear to manifest in order to play out "karma" or cause and effect.

So if you have some identity cluster (self or other identified) that hates itself or has rage or resentment it typically expresses by acting out on "other" parts of the consciousness.

Those enactments might be within the apparent individual bodymind, or might be expressed in dramas with "others" or the "outside world".

These clusters are prone to resist efforts to improve, and often try to make the bodymind "pay" for the karma, by various means; depression, anxiety, guilt, fear, and harmful habits and tendencies.

All of these are also just messed up identity complexes, sticky with the conditioning and force of habit that comes with them.

Are they true individual personal identities separate from everything else arising? No. They are imputations, reified from what is actually arising.

But when these complexes manifest, they believe they are separate and individuated, and appearances tend to reinforce these beliefs.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

2) When the "dream" of this world arises as a cluster of experience, the bodymind vehicle starts to be interpreted as a "cage" for awareness, because typically we cannot simply jump in and out of it at will.

When things "happen" to the bodymind vehicle, pain and pleasure give rise to craving and aversion. To deal with this, the experience cluster begins to map reality as being internal and external in relation to it's apparently individuated and separate "self".

That's the beginning of the "self" within a particular dream of the world.

It is not my experience that we begin as a "tabula rasa" or blank slate. Quite the contrary. The Big Self cluster does not die with the body, and is NOT a single individual persona by any means. More like a legion of fractured identities.

It could however be said that the "awareness" or "energy" appears to be the same one, regardless of the other elements arising.

So, in relation to other bodies and environment, we begin to draw a conceptual map of reality like an overlay upon the arising experience of perceptions, ideas, interpretations, and patterns.

This seems to be an effort to make sense of the world, creating some sense of control, so that we don't continually feel confusion and distress.

"Mother" and everyone else, gets mapped onto perceptions including thoughts, sensations, beliefs, judgements and behavioural tendencies.

Experientially, all of these are parts of "us" as a whole, if you are to define "us" as everything that is experienced.

So, every thought, feeling, idea, belief, evaluation, tendency, and behaviour could be said to be elements or aspects of the Big Self.

We then imagine some of these feelings, thoughts, etc, to be separate, partly because they tend to arise in relation to perceptions of other bodies.

Later they arise in relation to thoughts or narratives about other bodyminds, and the "world" that we believe is however we believe it is.

By that point, we are usually convinced that the separation is a reality rather than an appearance, and the "ego's" or identity-clusters take roots and dig in, becoming a carousel of "selves" that arise in relation to environmental stimuli and interact among "themselves" like a cast of characters in a dreadful soap opera.

My experience is, that some of the most highly individuated clusters not only arise in bodyminds as "selves" but exist outside of bodies as "selves" and some can interact as "selves" on the mental plane with other "selves", both in bodies and without.

They even form groups and act as groups, just as you would see a church of worshipers or gang of football supporters on the physical plane.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3) Seeing it has the flavour of liberation, but there is not really a celebration or drama happening around it. It's what always was, seen from a different perspective. It seems to have been a long journey, and a slow one.

Before I started this dialogue, I had most of the above ideas in my head intellectually, but the actual lived experience was bonded to a fundamental belief in separation. "I" was trying to question it, but the questioning was taking place from the position of separation in the first place! You can't see what you are seeing from, kind of thing, and "you" are the seeing, or rather the whole process that is arising. Not a great metaphor, but hope you get the drift. :)

The past few days is really when the cosmic joke has become too apparent not to see.

I will leave you with possibly the most simple, direct, and magnificent statement made on this whole tragicomedy:

"The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular" - FRATER PERDURABO

[Canfora]

Oohhh.... now I have to google FRATER PERDURABO!

I enjoyed your answers very much. Your experience seems to be very different from my own and I find this difference fascinating. I think (and this is, of course, just my perception) that you would benefit greatly if you start guiding here in this forum. Having to consider these subjects from apparent other points of view is a wonderful way to see through ours. And I think you have what it takes to be a good guide too.

Here are the last 3 questions:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[deesee]

Oohhh.... now I have to google FRATER PERDURABO!

I enjoyed your answers very much. Your experience seems to be very different from my own and I find this difference fascinating. I think (and this is, of course, just my perception) that you would benefit greatly if you start guiding here in this forum. Having to consider these subjects from apparent other points of view is a wonderful way to see through ours. And I think you have what it takes to be a good guide too.

Here are the last 3 questions:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

4) I didn't do anything. "I" can't do anything. Experience in totality is the only doer and experience is highly conditioned, so generally runs according to tendencies, like a set of programs.

Experience in totality may drop ideas, programs, or patterns into play; such as the "meditation model of liberation", or the Paul Hedderman model of reality, or the Tony Parsons model of reality, or the "alcoholic" meme, or the "am i enlightened" meme, or any other conceptual construct, idea, or meme, creating the framework for the appearance of "progress" or "growth" or "learning".

There was an appearance that was sometimes interpreted as "doing", but it was all an illusion. Nothing pushed me over, because there is no true "me" to be pushed over. If reality in totality manifests a "me" it does it. There is nothing "I" can do about it as an apparent separate identity. Reality as a whole is the only doer.

5) The words you asked me to describe are all only appearances or interpretations of what is happening. They are only concepts. Nothing to do with what's happening other than as an interpretation of what's happening within what's happening. Neither "free will" or "predetermination" are true, yet both are true. Same goes for all the other words. They are false dichotomies that only exist conceptually. Are all polarities only apparent?

6) Yeah. FRATER PERDURABO is a complex conceptual construct that exists in our experience fields. From the available wrtings, it's evident that he was Self-realised. For example:

OLYMPAS. What thought is worthy?
MARSYAS. Truly none
Save one, in that it is but one.
Keep the mind constant; thou shalt see
Ineffable felicity.
Increase the will, and thou shalt find
It hath the strength to be resigned.
Resign the will; and from the string
Will's arrow shall have taken wing,
And from the desolate abode
Found the immaculate heart of God!
...

OLYMPAS. Then all life's loyal breath
Is a waste wind. All joy forgone,
I must strive ever?
MARSYAS. Cease to strive!
Destroy this partial I, this moan
Of an hurt beast! Sores keep alive
By scratching. Health is peace. Unknown
And unexpressed because at ease
Are the Most High Congruities.
OLYMPAS. Then death is thine “attainment”? I
Can do no better than to die!
MARSYAS. Indeed, that “I” that is not God
Is but a lion in the road!
Knowest thou not (even now!) how first
The fetters of Restriction burst?
In the rapture of the heart
Self hath neither lot nor part.

...

The hostile thoughts, the evil things!
They hover on majestic wings,
Like vultures waiting for a man
To drop from the slave-caravan!
MARSYAS. All thoughts are evil. Thought is two:
The seer and the seen. Eschew
That supreme blasphemy, my son,
Remembering that God is One.
OLYMPAS. God is a thought!
MARSYAS. The “thought” of God
Is but a shattered emerod:
A plague, an idol, a delusion,
Blasphemy, schism, and confusion!
OLYMPAS Banish my one high thought? The night
Indeed were starless.
MARSYAS Very right!
But that impalpable inane
Is the condition of success;
Even as earth lies black to gain
Spring's green and autumn's fruitfulness.

...

Knowledge is but experience
Made conscious of itself. The bee,
Past master of geometry,
Hath not one word of all of it;
For wisdom is not mother-wit!
So the adept is called insane
For his frank failure to explain.
Language creates false thoughts; the true
Breed language slowly. Following
Experience of a thing we knew
Arose the need to name the thing.
So, ancients likened a man's mind
To the untamed evasive wind.
Some fool thinks names are things; and boasts
Aloud of spirits and of ghosts.
Religion follows on a pun!
And we, who know that Holy One
Of whom I told thee, seek in vain
Figure or word to make it plain.
OLYMPAS Despair of man!
MARSYAS Man is the seed
Of the unimaginable flower.
By singleness of thought and deed
It may bloom now–this actual hour!

...

MARSYAS Though calm and pure
It seem, maybe some thought hath crept
Into his mind to baulk the adept.
The expectation of success
Suffices to destroy the stress
Of the one thought. But then, what odds?
“Man's vision goes, dissolves in God's;”
Or, “by God's grace the Light is given
To the elected heir of heaven. “
These are but idle theses, dry
Dugs of the cow Theology.
Business is business. The one fact
That we know is: the gods exact
A stainless mirror. Cleanse thy soul!
Perfect the will's austere control!
For the rest, wait! The sky once clear,
Dawn needs no prompting to appear!
OLYMPAS Enough! it shall be done.
MARSYAS Beware!
Easily trips the big word “dare. “
Each man's an OEdipus, that thinks
He hath the four powers of the Sphinx,
Will, Courage, Knowledge, Silence. Son,
Even the adepts scarce win to one!
Thy Thoughts–they fall like rotten fruits.
But to destroy the power that makes
These thoughts–thy Self? A man it takes
To tear his soul up by the roots!
This is the mandrake fable, boy!
OLYMPAS You told me that the Path was joy.
MARSYAS A lie to lure thee!
OLYMPAS Master!
MARSYAS Pain
And joy are twin toys of the brain.
Even early visions pass beyond!
OLYMPAS Not all the crabbed runes I have conned
Told me so plain a truth. I see,
Inscrutable Simplicity!
Crushed like a blind-worm by the heel
Of all I am, perceive, and feel,
My truth was but the partial pang
That chanced to strike me as I sang.

******* *******

It has many more gems, and continues here:

https://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib242

Crowley has a flair for the dramatic, and has been called all sorts, not least by himself. His essay on the Mahasattipatana is one of many superb works. Do What Thou Wilt with him.

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It's all said here, as good as anyone can say it:


You don't exist... That is, as an ego. When you understand that, you're liberated.

-- Alan Watts

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The mind has got a gun to your head, only because you think you have a head to put a gun to it.

-- Mooji

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Beyond that, I found we’ve actually been deluding ourselves in the worst way of all by believing in the individual.
Stay with me on this.
Kafka, Orwell, Patrick McGoohan in The Prisoner.. everyone told us The Individual was the most important thing we could be.
Everyone is fucking ‘quirky’ these days; every shit in their window of MTV is ‘quirky’. Everyone’s cool; everyone’s smart… it’s not true.
What if the individual was the fake? What if the individual’s the crock? And we’ve actually been sold that by “them”; by the man, the establishment.. whatever you want.
Because what occurred to me is that when you talk about the individual, and you deal with the individual, you find that the end of the individual is neurosis. To be individual means that there is “self” and “not self”. Okay?
So where I stop.. the boundaries of “me”, right, this physical body; the boundaries of me that stretch out.. things I believe in.. I’m sure we’d all be friends if we talked – but would we be friends with Newt Gingrich? No.
But that’s the point: I stop, where Newt Gingrich starts. Why is that? Why do I stop there? Why does *he* define my self-sense? And I can’t absorb him?
Why do these fuckers.. why does the Skull And Bones Society, or the CIA.. why do the 33º Masons – why are they different from us?
They’re not – they want to explain things. They want an answer.
They’ve found an answer that seems to suit them – which seems kind of uncool and cruel to me, because it involves exploiting other people.
But they’re looking for an answer. We’re all looking for the same thing: Why. Are. We. Here?

-- Grant Morrison, Disinfo Con

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Physical death does not resolve the fatal problem of the ego. Only the psychological death of the “I” can resolve the problem of human pain. However, the “I” loves itself too much and does not want to die whatsoever. As long as the “I” exists, the wheel of Samsara (the fatal wheel of human tragedy) will turn.

-- Samael Aun Weor, Revolution of the Dialectic

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Only by ridding ourselves of self-esteem, only by having the mind free of assumptions, can we experience, in the absence of the “I,” that which is the truth.

-- Samael Aun Weor, Revolution of the Dialectic

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Subhuti, do not say that the Buddha has the idea, ‘I will lead all sentient beings to Nirvana.’ Do not think that way, Subhuti. Why?
In truth there is not one single being for the Buddha to lead to Enlightenment.
If the Buddha were to think there was, he would be caught in the idea of a self, a person, a living being, or a universal self.
Subhuti, what the Buddha calls a self essentially has no self in the way that ordinary persons think there is a self.
Subhuti, the Buddha does not regard anyone as an ordinary person. That is why he can speak of them as ordinary persons.

-- Diamond Sutra

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I יְהוָה do all these things.

-- Isaiah 45:7

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Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents, but that the works of god should be made manifest in him

-- John 9:3

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The self that you are trying to improve does not exist.

-- Mooji

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Since there is no self, there is also no other.

-- Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

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If you are asked what is the difference between the mind of the truly perfected Buddha and the mind of sentient beings of the three realms, it is nothing other than the difference between realising and not realizing the nature of mind.

-- Padmasambhava

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The mind's contents are less real than the reflection a bird attacks in the smoked glass window, and yet we wage imaginary wars between the projections we call "us" and the ones we call "them," but they are both observed by the same one.

-- Michael Paradis

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"I have suggested that behind almost all myth lies the mono-plot of the game of hide-and-seek."
"What you are basically, deep, deep down, far, far in, is simply the fabric and structure of existence itself."

-- Alan Watts

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Clarity does not provide answers; it dissolves questions.

-- Wu Hsin

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"But we tend to CARE what happens to us, and want things to go a certain way... That’s due to an investment in an imaginary incomplete self-image.

We have a deep, maybe unconscious belief that we are a certain way, that we live in a world that is a certain way, a sort of cartoon we carry around in our mind, imagining that we’re incomplete."

-- Peter Brown

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pratitya samutpada:

Know, the sane spirit keeps its course
By this, that everything it thinks
Hath causal or contingent links.
Destroy them, and destroy the mind!
O bestial, bottomless, and blind
Black pit of all insanity!
The adept must make his way to thee!
This is the end of all our pain,
The dissolution of the brain!
For lo! in this no mortar sticks;
Down come the house–a hail of bricks!

-- Frater Perdurabo, Aha!

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If you pass beyond form, O friends, it is Paradise and rose-gardens within rose-gardens.
When thou hast broken and destroyed thine own form, thou hast learned to break the form of everything.

-- Rumi

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Yoga of the Yellow Dragon:

"Balance against each thought its exact opposite. For the marriage of these is the annihilation of illusion."

-- Frater Perdurabo

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Turn thy face towards thine own Face: thou hast no kinsman but thyself.

-- Rumi

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Seeing that you cannot control your mind you realize there is no controller.
What you took to be the thinker of thoughts is just one of the thoughts.
What you took to be the feeler of the feelings is just one of the feelings.
What you took to be the experiencer of experience is just a part of the experience.

-- Alan Watts

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Heartbreak is the end of innocence; the realization that this world does not belong to you, but that you belong to it.

-- Joseph Campbell

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"You" are not doing "You."
"You" are BEING done.
Liberation/causeless peace is seeing that "you" have never done anything.
"You" is an idea, a mental abstraction, a semi-persistent phantom.
When you look directly for it, it cannot be found.

-- Michael Jeffreys

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Seeing that you cannot control your mind you realize there is no controller. What you took to be the thinker of thoughts is just one of the thoughts. What you took to be the feeler of the feelings is just one of the feelings. What you took to be the experiencer of experience is just a part of the experience.

There is not any thinker of thoughts or feeler of feelings. We get into that bind because our language has a grammatical rule that states that verbs must have subjects. The funny thing about this is that verbs are processes, and so are subjects and nouns, which are supposed to be things.

How does a noun start a verb? How does a thing put a process into action? Obviously it cannot, but we always insist that there is this subject called the knower, and without a knower there cannot be knowing. However, that is just a grammatical rule, not a rule of nature. In nature there is just knowing."

-- Alan Watts

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"We build these elaborate stories in imagination and then we identify with them, we think we’re IN these stories, and then we think we’re STUCK in those stories.

Once you see that all the elements that your story is made of don’t actually exist as objective realities in the way you think they do, then your whole story collapses; and where does that leave you?

You don’t know where you are, you don’t know what you are; but then there’s nothing to trap you, and no you to be trapped. THIS is liberation."

--Peter Brown

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So the idea we have of who we are, is suffering from experiencing the ideas it has about itself.

-- Mooji

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Ignorance, the belief that things are real, is extremely powerful. But we should remember that it is nothing more than a mistake; it is merely a misunderstanding that we cling to but which in fact has no foundation whatsoever. It's opposite, the understanding that phenomena have no reality, is based on a consistent truth that stands up to all argument.

If one familiarises oneself with this understanding, it can be developed indefinitely, since it is both true and a natural quality of the mind. As it develops and grows more powerful, it acts as the antidote to the erroneous belief that things are real, which is bound to become correspondingly weaker."

-- Dalai Lama, A Flash of Lightning in the Dark of Night

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Even if one is the most sinful of all sinners, one shall yet cross over the ocean of sin by the raft of Self-knowledge alone. As the blazing fire reduces wood to ashes; similarly, the fire of Self-knowledge reduces all bonds of karma to ashes...

-- Krishna, Bhagavad-Gita 4:36-37

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"This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real."

-- Rumi

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Physical death does not resolve the fatal problem of the ego. Only the psychological death of the “I” can resolve the problem of human pain. However, the “I” loves itself too much and does not want to die whatsoever. As long as the “I” exists, the wheel of Samsara (the fatal wheel of human tragedy) will turn.

-- Samael Aun Weor, Revolution of the Dialectic

===

One can release all desire to seek, and realize that the thought that there is anything else but God is a baseless vanity.

This is the same vanity that claims authorship for one's experiences, thoughts, and actions.

With reflection, it can be seen that both the body and the mind are the result of the innumerable conditions of the universe, and that one is at best the witness of this concordance.

-- David Hawkins

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fin

[deesee]

Ignorance, the belief that things are true, is extremely powerful. But we should remember that it is nothing more than a mistake; it is merely a misunderstanding that we cling to but which in fact has no foundation whatsoever. It's opposite, the understanding that phenomena have no truth, is based on a consistent experience that stands up to all argument.

If one familiarises oneself with this understanding, it can be developed indefinitely, since it is simply the totality of what is experienced. As it develops and grows more powerful, it acts as the antidote to the erroneous belief that things are true, which is bound to become correspondingly weaker."

-- Dalai Lama, A Flash of Lightning in the Dark of Night (re-translated)

[deesee]

This meditation differs fundamentally from the usual Hindu methods by the fact that the mind is not restrained to the contemplation of a single object, and there is no interference with the natural functions of the body as there is, e.g., in Pranayama. It is essentially an observation-practice, which later assumes an analytic aspect in regard to the question, "What is it that is really observed?"

The Ego-Idea is resolutely excluded from the start. . . The breathing, motions of walking, etc. are merely observed and recorded; for instance, one may sit down quietly and say:

"There is an indrawing of the breath." "There is an expiration," etc. Or, walking, "There is a raising of the right foot," and so on, just as it happens. The thought is of course not quick enough to note all the movements or their subtle causes. For example, we cannot describe the complicated muscular contractions, etc.; but this is not necessary. Concentrate on some series of simple movements.

When this through habit becomes intuitive so that the thought is really "There is a raising," as opposed to "I raise" . . . one may begin to analyse . . . and the second stage is "There is a sensation (Vedana) of a raising, etc." Sensations are further classed as pleasant or unpleasant.

When this is the true intuitive instantaneous testimony of consciousness (so that "There is a raising, etc." is rejected as a palpable lie, we proceed to Sanna, perception.

"There is a perception of a (pleasant or unpleasant) sensation of a raising, etc."

When this has become intuitive - why! Here’s a strange result! The emotions of pain and pleasure have vanished.

They are subincluded in the lesser skandha of Vedana, and Sanna is free from them. And to him who can live in this third stage, and live so for ever, there is no more pain; only an intense interest similar to that which has enabled men of science to watch and note the progress of their own death-agony.

Unfortunately the living in such a state is conditional on sound mental health, and terminable by disease or death at any moment.

Were it not so, the First Noble Truth would be a lie.

The two further stages Sankhara and Vinnanam pursue the analysis to its ultimation, "There is a consciousness of a tendency to perceive the (pleasant or unpleasant) sensation of raising of a right foot "being the final form.

And I suppose no psychologist of any standing will quarrel with this...Reasoning in fact leads us to this analysis; the Buddhist goes further only so far as he may be said to knock down the scaffolding of reasoning processes, and to assimilate the actual truth of the matter.

It is the difference between the schoolboy who painfully construes "Balbus murum aedificavit," and the Roman who announces that historic fact without a thought of his grammar.

I have called this meditation the most famous of the Buddhist meditations, because it is stated by the Buddha himself that if one practices it honestly and intelligently a result is certain. And he says this of no other."

-- Frater Perdurabo, on the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, from Science & Buddhism

[deesee]

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The totality of what is happening as a whole makes things happen.

Magnets, how do they work? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSd_nb3-fHA

There is no separate "I" to be responsible for anything, yet as the totality of what is happening there is total responsibility. What i am is independent of everything arising, and i am also everything that is arising.

everything that is happening is just happening. the identity and separation are just ideas about what's happening. Faulty foundational presumptions. False starting premises. Ignorance.

It goes against the grain to give specific examples, and I prefer to communicate more abstractly. Good.

The bodyform reaches for glass, raises it and drinks a sip.

The head shakes from side to side in an experiment to see how the visual process appears and it the screen can be read.

Listening suddenly to Genesis Sunfire in the background on YouTube.

Totally think this dude is brilliant.

(that's not a description of what is happening. it is something that decided to be typed.)

daydreaming about something there is no recall of now

Genesis Sunfire voice

awareness of key interface

taking in the Genesis Sunfire meme with the perspective of an imagined hearer

thinking about what to say (this does not mean there is a true separate identity doing the thinking)

drift into conceptual daydream about how the world is which subtly implies "I" am separate from the rest of what is arising right now.

a massive amount of processes have passed since there was any typing. approximately seven minutes have passed in the trash going out meta-process.

any process within that meta-process typed about now would be from what we call memory.

Genesis Sunfire voice arises again. His words seem to make sense and the meme of him may program some will towards following his example.

############

[deesee]

Watched this last night, and it's brilliant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbH1chO7D-g&t=50s

[Canfora]

Good morning Donald! You sure love this subject. Thank you for all the quotes and links! I've asked the other guides to read our conversation to check if something seems unclear and needs to be looked at. This can take a while. There are guides in many corners of the globe and I'll give them enough time to read this thread. I'll get back at you tomorrow or sooner if someone suggests questions.
Take care,
S

[deesee]

Thank you Sandra!

[deesee]

"All individual existence is tragic.

Perception of this fact is the essence of comedy."

-- Frater Perdurabo

[deesee]

Choronzon, we are told, is the all-devouring guardian of "the Abyss" (the Abyss being a suitably dramatic and evocative term for an experiential "gap" in human consciousness.)

The term can be applied to that state of mind during which Individual Egoic Self-consciousness begins to cannibalize itself rather than confront the usually frightening fact that Personality is not "Real" in the existential sense and is simply a behavioral strategy."

-- Grant Morrison

[deesee]

In case you are interested in the so-called "Magickal" path. Choronzon, if you read the Cry of the 10th Aether, is revealed as "I". Its a continual litany of " I I I I I I " and form.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/418/aetyr10.htm

"From the Abyss comes No Man forth, but a Star startles the Earth, and our Order rejoices above that Abyss that the Beast hath begotten one more Babe in the Womb of Our Lady, His Concubine, the Scarlet Woman, BABALON.

There is no need to instruct a Babe thus born, for in the Abyss it was purified of every poison of personality; its ascent to the highest is assured, in its season, and it hath no need of seasons for it is conscious that all conditions are no more than forms of its fancy."

- Frater Perdurabo

[deesee]

From the perspective of my own experience, the whole “Abyss” concept is nonsense. There is no gap between the divine and human levels of existence; the transcendent being is already constantly present and active in every person. Since this is the case, there is nothing to “cross” or “jump”. The discontinuity, to the extent there is one, is entirely a matter of perspective; the transcendent view is dramatically different from the Self-centered view common to the lower levels. But there is a constant connection and interaction between the divine and the human; they make up a single, undivided system.

Rather than a separation, our normal lack of awareness of the divine aspect of ourselves is a matter of ignorance. Through ignorance, reinforced by a lifetime of conditioning and habit – and reinforced even more by magickal disciplines – the transcendent being in a person is deluded into believing it is something that it is not: an individualized “self” or “soul”, operating in the mundane world through the medium of a personality mask. In its ignorance, it becomes so thoroughly identified with this self (which is a constructed thing) that it becomes unaware that it is anything other than that self. You might think of it as a weird sort of dharana or deep meditation; a concentration on an object of meditation (the self, in this case) so intent that the difference between the perceiver and the perceived disappears.

Achieving transcendence therefore is not a matter of creating a bridge over a gap, or of leaping a gap, or anything of that sort. Rather, it is a matter of awakening the already-present transcendent being from its state of identification with the self, getting it to realize and act from its natural state.

What it takes to do this can vary widely. It might require something a catastrophic as the complete destruction of the “self”, as in the typical Abyss myth; but it could equally be as subtle and gentle as a breath of air slipping out through an open window, leaving the self completely intact. In my own case, it was somewhere between these extremes. There were some long and rather painful steps leading up to it, but the final event was quick, undramatic, and utterly simple."

excerpt from:

https://hermetic.com/norton/abyss2

[Canfora]

Hi Donald! There are some guides still reading this topic. Meanwhile, could you try answering the 6 questions again, from your gut, using everyday common language, like if you were talking with a 10 years old? We would like to read your own words and feelings regarding seeing the illusion.
Take your time, no need to rush.
Take care,
S

[deesee]

I wrote this for a friend earlier:

The sage sees only the Self*. - Mooji

*everything that is experienced in its totality, including what is beyond experience, is the "Self" or "Brahma" or "God" or the "universe" or "reality as it is".

There is nothing experienced that is not the Self. Its just that the separate identities do not exist in the way they are typically believed to.

Let's say we have a chat, or you are reading this. Its hardly relevant if my body is there or not because 99.9% - 100% of "me" is "your" data patterns and programs, perceptions and feelings and ideas.

These processes exist INDEPENDENT of identity, but may include identity or not.

In truth neither of us are actually separate in direct actual experience, because as identities we are just conceptual constructs, that imagine experience to exist in a certain way.

If it's hard to extend that understanding to the experience of light we believe to be the physical and astral planes, your totality can absorb that slower if its less digestable right now.

Where am "I" in your actual experience and what am "I" made of?

What actually is Donald? What actually is Sandra?

Both aspects of what is actually experiencing, or being, or arising, yeah?

Every perception, thought, feeling, tendency, belief, that is experienced is part of the one actual experience; the Self.

I'd love to find a way to put this that made it super easy to realise. If you have any feedback we can chat it out between our Self some time.

There's only one of us, and its not who either of us thought we were.

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"Anything you see as outside yourself is going to cause you problems."

-- Grant Morrison, on crossing the abyss