Live my life from place of oneness and integration of all including my physical body without separation

[apolsk]

Bernadette,

They say the truth is sometimes hidden right under our nose, if we know where to look, eh? :)

If I read your reports correctly, so far you've found out that:

- When experiencing something, the seen, the seeing and the seer are not separate.
- When an experience is fully in attention with no distractions, there is no "me", no thoughts.
- However, there can be a short attention round-trip to "subject" ("me"?) and then back, producing an experience of "object" as a result. So you could describe it as a sequence of 3 distinct experiences: 1) raw experience; 2) "subject"-experience; 3) "object"-experience.

Does it sound about right?

Apart from an experience after experience after experience... Were you able to find anything else at all? If not, in what form do "I", "self", "body", "mind", "awareness" and so on exist at that exact moment?

At this stage of all these revelations, the idea of awareness without a body, might be helpful to explore to deepen my understanding?

I would suggest to refrain from exploring ideas and try to stick to direct observations. Here we attempt to put ideas aside for a while and find out what truly exists before any ideas are drawn from it.

Based on the above, if physical body is en experience, then awareness without a physical body? - would it have experience of something else, or no experiences???

What exactly is "physical body" in direct experience? Imagine for a moment that you underwent surgery and your hands and legs were chopped off. That which remains - is it still a "body"? If not, does the "body" reside in those poor limbs?

If the body is in what's left, now let's cut off your head. Where is "the body" now - in the torso or the head? If neither, where did "the body" go? Was it something real to begin with, or was it just a label "body" that rang "true" or "false" depending on what you pointed at with your thoughts?

And "the body" is at least something that you can point at with your finger. What is "the awareness" if we exclude the thought "awareness" from consideration?

I know you asked who wants to know, somehow the idea is puzzling me.....would you mind if we explore ?

Well, it's quite simple, really. When you feel an urge to produce an understanding, look if you can find something or someone asking for it. Is there anyone who wants to know, or is there just the desire to know, an experience in itself?

[Bernadette]

Hello Andrei,

Yes, that' s exactly the point. Right under my nose. IF I KNOW WHERE to "look". What more Does Bernadette need? Or how else does she need to experience this?

I have been reflecting what might it be that she is not " getting " about this. So spent a couple of days on this.

As I say this now, What comes to mind is, that one of the reasons or poossibly THE reason that Bernadette is not " getting" it, is that habitually Bernadette is exploring ideas and what Bernadtte calls reflecting is in fact - getting lost in thoughts!!!??? Also this way then not is or stays in the present moment.
Wow quite a realisation when Bernadette starts seeing what she actually does, whilst wondering what is it in the way that she is not getting the point?
as you say, this process is about direct experience, leaving ideas and thinking aside, hence really no need to reflect?
Sorry it has taken so long, nevertheless for me a very worthwile time and process.
It is such a habit though for B to live from the place of thoughts and thinking about thoughts, constant and automatic!

The 2nd part of your email, I shall explore the body tomorrow, as am rather overwhelmed by the realisation of the above.

Thank you for all
Bernadette

[apolsk]

It's good, keep the inquiry burning!

IF I KNOW WHERE to "look".

Whatever you are looking at right now, could you possibly be looking anywhere else at the same time? So where else can the truth hide at this very moment? Is it even hidden? Or is it too obvious and "not enough" (see below)?

I have been reflecting what might it be that she is not " getting " about this.

What is there to "get", apart from what is already seen? What if what you are already seeing is all there is to see right now - how/why this is not enough?

It is such a habit though for B to live from the place of thoughts and thinking about thoughts, constant and automatic!

What is this "B", or "Bernadette", or "she"? When there is a thought, can we find separate "Bernadette" thinking that thought - or even "living from the place of thoughts"? Or is "Bernadette" itself just another thought, an imaginary story character?

Love,
Andrei

[apolsk]

How is it necessary to "get" experiences? What value does this "getting" add to what is already being experienced?

Please look at your hand again. How what is being seen not enough as "getting" it? Do you think there is a better way than seeing it clearly? What is it?

Examine your sensations and report if you can find any sort of internal resistance to this.

[Bernadette]

Hello Andrei and thank you

Yesterday I have asked myself what is there to get and who is to get it?
When I say" get my head round something" is like the analytical mind wants to fix something to a point, or nail it down and having some thoughts about it then,... analyse,........
However there is constant movement, nothing is static, this is deceptive, the recognition of this ongoing process of movement is key. For Bernadtte to relax enough and recognise " the bigger picture" which is going on all the time, whether she does something about it or not, wants this or not, pin something down, get head round it, get it,ie grab or get hold of something ( by going this as if making sure her existence and all else is real),.....etc.......The movement will go on regardless.
How can Bernadette relax and be present relaxed to the fact that all is in constant movement, this is just how it is and that there is "nothing wrong" with Bernadette or the way it is, in a way nothing to solve or fix, or " battle with"- in her head. Most will solve itself given enough time.

Looking at my hand- i can have an experience of this, when I stay with this, then there is a need to " do " more, " surely this cannot be enough" " needing to do more" , if I stay with this then voices: " what is this about?", " I do not believe this is real, there must be more to this" ,......if I stay with this more, then i sense that all this" going on" wants to lead to do something about it, about this experience of my hand.
Is there a better way than seeing hand clearly? Based on the direct experience of the hand, I'd say this is the way of "seeing"
Anything else is on top of that. However in my daily existence, I hardly experience this way, i exeprience my habitual way, ie the direct experience is almost not present there. Hope this makes sense what I am saying. As if it is at the moment unimaginable for me to have daily " life" consisting of just experiences, Even Bernadette and her life is an experience, however am not " living " from this place.

If I know where to look? Could I be looking anywher else? I say, I can only be looking at what I am looking at. Where is the truthhidden, or is it too obvious and not enough? The way Bernadette looks at this, is that yes she can have the experience, yes, she knows all is just a series of exepriences, .....however she does not " want to" or does not believe it, despite it all. Yes one would be what would happen to her existence? ( we discussed that her existence is a thought ), for her her existence is real, as if she wants to exist,...... just the idea that she might not be taken for real she exists, she does not want to let go of her fixed ideas, believes and holding on to the seen as real, ie physical body, ......really stuck in this

Thank you
Bernadette

[apolsk]

I can see that you think that you are stuck. Can you get unstuck from thinking by more thinking?

That what you are stuck at - is it sensations or thoughts? Look at the direct experiences - are you stuck in them, e.g. unable to stop seeing your hand?

That need to "get it" or "do something", take a closer look at it too. Is this need real, coming from actual experiences, or is it imaginary? What is it? Please give me the answer from the direct experience, not from thoughts.

"But it happens" is also not what I am asking about - not whether it happens, but what is its importance from the direct experience perspective. How is it necessary to add anything to the experiences?

Thanks,
Andrei

[Bernadette]

Hello Andrei,

Yes, after you pointing it out, I can see cleqrly that I am stuck in my thinking. Good point- more thinking cannot get me unstuck from thinking. I can see that this is what I have been doing all along.
After I read your last reply, I have been checking during the day when do I actually have experience only and when go into thoughts straight away and then have a tendency to stay with thoughts. The times I have been experiencing only was very few and very short!! Quite a realisation.
Yes, I get stuck on thoughts. I do not get stuck on direct experiences, they just come and go. I get stuck on thoughts about experiences and thinking about the thoughts......
The need to get something or do something - this was very interesting to realise that this does not come from from actual direct experience, so means it can only come from thinking about this experience.
To Answer what this need is from direct experience: this is the need to be thinking about the experience and get stuck in the thinking. It feels like I want to " get hold of" that particular experience, pinning it down, almost like make it " solid" ? I would be nice nterested to know if you tell me whether this answer is from direct experience or not, as am learning to distinquishing these in my approach at the moment.
How is it neccessary to add to the experience? Actually it is not neccassary to add to the experience, yet I have been doing this all the time! Adding my thoughts...if we do not add anything then experiences freely come and go
I shall see how it is when I look at things or eg when have different sensations/ experiences withing my body - how is it not neccessary to add anything and recognise it directly and practise this new understanding.

Thank you
Bernadette

[apolsk]

Bernadette,

It seems that you recognize your condition better each day!

I can see clearly that I am stuck in my thinking.

Earlier you agreed that "you" is just another thought. Can a thought be stuck in thinking?

Let's do one more exercise to see if it is really "you" doing anything.

Please sit down and put both hands on a table.

Now, at some random moment of your choosing, decide which one of two hands you are going to raise off the table. Then, at some other moment of your choosing, bring it up - or don't. It's "your" choice.

Do this several times while carefully watching yourself, and try answering from direct experience:

- How each of those decisions was made? Did you know upfront which choices you were going to take? If not and they came spontaneously, what makes them "your" decisions? If yes, how did you come to know about them?

If you made one decision and then suddenly and rebelliously changed it to the opposite to demonstrate that you have free will, answer the same questions both for the original decision and for the subsequent override. How did the decision to do something else come up?

- If hand went up after deciding that, how did it happen? Apart from having a conviction that it was "you" who raised it up, is there any other proof of that? Or did you just watch it going up?

To Answer what this need is from direct experience: this is the need to be thinking about the experience and get stuck in the thinking. It feels like I want to " get hold of" that particular experience, pinning it down, almost like make it " solid" ? I would be nice nterested to know if you tell me whether this answer is from direct experience or not, as am learning to distinquishing these in my approach at the moment.

What exactly does this need look like in the direct experience? Can you describe actual sensations, etc.? Things you've described are the way how you interpreted the sensations - if there were any. What are the sensations themselves? How do you actually come to know that they mean what you think they mean?

Regarding your interest - if you saw a dream at night and then tried to describe it, would that description come from the dream experience or from the awakened experience?

Actually it is not neccassary to add to the experience, yet I have been doing this all the time!

Did this answer come from the direct experience? Hint: try to locate "all the time" in it. Can you find such thing?

I am not looking here for a "correct" thought, e.g. "it's not necessary!" I am looking for what it honestly feels like. If you feel it's necessary, that is what you feel. Honest looking is the key. But can you describe from your actual physical sensations how it is necessary to add anything to the experience? We can't just trust thoughts' judgement about themselves.

Cheers,
Andrei

[Bernadette]

Dear Andrei,

Yes, we agreed that B is ankother thought. I have been considering a thought re the physical body, few mails back you have asked re the physical body, ie if one cuts parts of it what changes to the perception where body is,.... i have viewed my body as separate to all else as long as I remember, not wanting to accept it as is and for what it is. There is a questions - what makes the physical body seem " solid" .???

Can Bernadette, ie a thought be stuck in thinking? Yes, can be stuck in one thought after another....

Noticing when I am not overthinking during the day is revealing that I do so most of the time taking me away from what is, now. As if Bernadette needs to keep herself, or her thinking preoccupied all the time, habitually I would say.
I cannot find any peace in this.

Exe- lifting hands- at the beginning I was lifting one hand at a time onoy after clearly deciding in my thinking upfront which one lift will lift. Then when I allowed thinking to relax and stwrted to move hands randomly, as if the hands were doing so independentwntly from my thoughts? , an unusual experience. What makes them my decision- B mind wanting and trying to control and own the decision of which hand will move and the moving.
When I did the exe with the rebellious version- in my thought I have decided to move the other hand instead of the chosen one before, i would say one thought followed another to move the other had, I noticed that " something" inside did not like this, as if this was not something agrred on, and as if the other hand moved reluctantly, ie one had was to move however instead it was the other one that moved instead. Very interesting.
Is there any other proof of that it was me who raised the hand up? I can see that if I do not own Bernadtte, then I do not own the hands nor own the control of moving the hand. I do not have any proof it was B who moved the hand apart from the fact that the hand is attached to B body hence B decides to move it? Interestingly yes, I have just watched the hand to go up.

What are the sensations- good questions, they are perceptions, I do not know. How do I come to know what they mean what I think they mean! Here, I admit that whenever I had a sensation in the physical body, I stwrted having thoughts about it and then moree thoughts evolved from those and then started believing the thoughts,.... of course the thought were unhelpful, ie negative based on fear,..... of all sort of things...... until this work with you really I have never looked at sensation in a direct exeprience alone and never recognised the thinking part I have been automatically doing about it, like an autopilot.
I really cannot come to know what they mean? On the other hand " I" have always wanted to know what they mean and must have been lot of thoughts about it. I have never really experienced a sensation on its own. What is it? I do not know how to describe it.
I shall continue tomorow re the last paragraph, if ok.

Thank you very much for all
bernadette

[Bernadette]

Andrei,
Regarding the sensations, it seems almost impossible to leave any sensation that arises in the body alone, ie without immediately thinking about it and then having thoughts about that thinking about it. As if cannot just have direct experiences alone. This will do a lot with habitual way of being. Seems where have been stuck, and am just beginning to see this.
Love
bernadette

[apolsk]

There is a questions - what makes the physical body seem " solid" .???

Actually, there are two questions: 1) what makes up "a body", rather than experiences of sensations, shapes, colors?.. 2) What makes up an experience of "being solid"? Can you look and notice the exact moment when "body" comes as an experience and when "solid" comes as an experience? Is it something that is inherently present in raw sensations, or is it quality/label assigned later in mind? Without thinking a single thought, what exactly "body" points at and what "solid" points at? Can you find it?

Can Bernadette, ie a thought be stuck in thinking? Yes, can be stuck in one thought after another....

Who can be stuck in thinking? Can a thought think? Let's try this. Think "Mickey Mouse". Can a thought "Mickey Mouse" be stuck in thinking? Now think "me". Can a thought "me", or "Bernadette" be stuck in thinking? Literally.

Exe- lifting hands- at the beginning I was lifting one hand at a time onoy after clearly deciding in my thinking upfront which one lift will lift.

So I've asked to describe from direct experience how that "I was... clearly deciding" happened. You are giving me the conclusion. Now can you please go back to the process and catch the exact moment when a decision was made, and how it was made? Do you see the actual process of making decision, step by step, or does it simply emerge out of nowhere? How can you tell that is was your decision, apart from the feeling claiming that it was yours?

I can see that if I do not own Bernadtte, then I do not own the hands nor own the control of moving the hand

What is that "I" that owns "Bernadette"? Whom or what this sentence is referring to as "I"? Can you find in direct experience that which is being referred to here?

I have never really experienced a sensation on its own.

Does the sensation and a thought about it happen together at the same exact time? Or does the thought follow the sensation. In the moment right before the thought manifests, isn't the sensation experienced on its own?

Regarding the sensations, it seems almost impossible to leave any sensation that arises in the body alone, ie without immediately thinking about it and then having thoughts about that thinking about it. As if cannot just have direct experiences alone.

Do you have an expectation that thoughts will stop arising? Who or what can stop them?
We are not trying to put a lid on thoughts. Why constantly manifesting sensations are not a problem, but thoughts are?

They may or may not subside, just as clouds on the sky may or may not stop appearing. We are only trying to see things clearly for what they are by looking from the direct experience perspective rather than from the perspective that thoughts are offering. Can you go back to the direct experience and only report what is actually seen, heard, sensed, etc.? And keep your answers as short as possible - no explanations/ideas/theories please, just dry reports of what is actually felt.

Love,
Andrei

[Bernadette]

Hello Andrei,

I do not find these practises easy, yet these are exactly the areas lacking understanding, so very appreciative for your guidance.

What makes up a body - just about can see it is made of colours, various sensations,.... shapes? Maybe?
What makes up experience as solid? Perception of body by our senses, eg eyes, smell, taste,..hearing,...

At what point body comes as an experience - right now this point feels like " zooming in" into the physical body, ?i really am not sure, can you help?

At what point solid comes as an experience - solid is a sensation, ? At which point? Not sure

Bernadette cannot be stuck in Thinking, ie experience cannot be stuck in thinking, a thought can be stuck in a thought ...

Exe- lifting hands - the decision to move hands came out of nowhere, there is nobody to own making that decision. Can it be my decision? - yes, if I claim it is. Experience followed by a thought of it is mine?

The " I" or " Bernadette" here is refered to an experience. As if this is one of the many possible experiences to possibly have,...

Sensation occurs on its own- yes, and a a thought about it follows immediately after.

I do not know where thoughts come from, they will nkot stop coming, however in past I have been " wrestling with them" getting stuck on them,....not letting go of them,.... understanding this is important so i do not expect to have only the " good" thoughts and constantly " battle or resist/suppress" the not so good thoughts. This is putting oid on thoughts, i want to get out of habit of " doing".
Manifesting sensations ( sensations on their own are just that ), ie they do not have to mean anything
Manifesting thoughts about the sensations can be a " problem" as can get hooked on thoughts, usual unhelpful ones mostly, creating all sorts of distortion of what is.

Thank you for all
Bernadette

[apolsk]

Hi Bernadette,

It's never easy to look where you never bothered to look before, but that's where you find the opportunity for a change.

What makes up a body - just about can see it is made of colours, various sensations,.... shapes? Maybe?

Do you see all of them at once? E.g. when you look at your hand, it may be just color first... Then shape emerges... Then inner sensation "at the same location"... Then label "hand"... Then label "my body"... When your attention is on the label "my body", is it still on the color of the hand that you are looking at? To put it differently, are the "colors", "sensations", "shapes" the same exact thing as the label "body", or something different?

What makes up experience as solid? Perception of body by our senses, eg eyes, smell, taste,..hearing,...

In direct experience, what qualifies e.g. seeing your hand as "solid"? Does the image of the hand inherently have "solid" in it, or is "solid" a label that is added later with thoughts? Please look carefully.

Bernadette cannot be stuck in Thinking, ie experience cannot be stuck in thinking, a thought can be stuck in a thought ...

How can a thought be stuck in another thought? Can a thought even be stuck in itself? How long does a single thought last? And I mean not repetitions - those are new thoughts that look similar, but nevertheless are not the same exact thought.

Exe- lifting hands - the decision to move hands came out of nowhere, there is nobody to own making that decision. Can it be my decision? - yes, if I claim it is. Experience followed by a thought of it is mine?

How can claiming that it is your decision really make it your decision? I claim that lifting your hand was my decision. Have this claim just made it mine?

Sensation occurs on its own- yes, and a a thought about it follows immediately after.

Doesn't the thought also occur on its own? If not, who or what owns that thought? "Bernadette" and "I" are also thoughts. Can they own it? Can a thought own another thought?

I do not know where thoughts come from, they will not stop coming, however in past I have been " wrestling with them" getting stuck on them,....not letting go of them

Who was wrestling, getting stuck, not letting go? "Bernadette"? "I"? You know those are thoughts. What else? Can you find that other "I" that did all these things?

Manifesting thoughts about the sensations can be a " problem" as can get hooked on thoughts, usual unhelpful ones mostly, creating all sorts of distortion of what is.

A problem for who? Who gets hooked on thoughts? Who decides that some thoughts are unhelpful?

You see, all these things you've mentioned lead one way or another to the idea of "I", but when you try find "I", you can't, other than another imaginary thought. So how can all these other things they be real problems?

Thank you,
Andrei

[Bernadette]

Hello Andrei,

it does not bother me whether anything is easy to do or not, I just do it, I am quite used to doing things that are not easy. I would have looked before. I did not know there is anything more beyond the physical, i have been conditioned this way. However one can say that my curiosity has not taken me in the direction of exploring these areas we are talking about.

Are colours, sensations, shapes ....same as labels , eg such as label a body?
I would say even a colour is a label, so body is another label in addition to that.
I can also see how one might consider shapes, colours,....different to body which is then looked upon as a label.

In direect experience, the hand or the body does not appear solid, solid is a label/ thought describing a quality added.

A thought cannot be stuck in another thought. A single thought lasts seconds even less.
One can be stuck in thinking, then in thinking about thinking,.......

Whose decision is it to lift the hand? If I say, the decision is mine, this is a claim, then who is me/ mine? Or yours?

Nobody owns thoughts, they come and go on their own. A thought cannot own another thought. Where do they come from?

Interesting, " I" stuck on thoughts, who is I? - nobody really there! Also " who" gets hooked on thoughts? Again nobody really there.

How can all these other things then be a real problem? Point taken.

how can one be comfortable with/ live from place of " non existence" whilst" existing"? And be relaxed about this, then what matters in the realm of existence, in the realm of non existence has no meaning or relevance?

Lots of love
Iveta

[apolsk]

Bernadette,

Good looking, thanks!

In terms of direct experience, can you describe what being "stuck in thoughts" looks like? Please try looking from a single moment viewpoint, unless you can find a prolonged period of time in DE.

You mentioned that a single thought can last seconds - what do you mean by that?

how can one be comfortable with/ live from place of " non existence" whilst" existing"?

Please describe what "existence" and "non-existence" are in direct experience - felt sensations, etc.