nostorynoself

[mllem]

Could I please get you to look where this presence (that experiences the body) was thought to be and tell me what is actually there?

there is no place where this presence is.

no thing.

[blackh]

Hi Marlow,

Thanks for the answer about the presence.

How do you know it's a cup?
because it holds tea.

This is really a circular answer that doesn't get into the mechanism. (Because how do you know that the stuff it holds is tea?)

We don't need to go into this if you don't want. I was just trying to pick up on something that seemed incomplete.


Steve

[mllem]

How do you know it's a cup?
because it holds tea.


This is really a circular answer that doesn't get into the mechanism. (Because how do you know that the stuff it holds is tea?)

We don't need to go into this if you don't want. I was just trying to pick up on something that seemed incomplete.


Steve

i guess what i was getting at is i don't usually think in terms of 'teacup' or other labels, i don't think. i just think 'thirst' (or something like a feeling of 'thirst' appears in my 'mouth,' then 'tea?' or some alternative option, or i think that i think that.

yes, i confess, at this stage i start getting lost in the language and i'm not clear of the benefits of pursuing these tails, so to speak, but if you feel there is value, i am willing to go forward here.

[blackh]

Marlowe,

People talk about gaining a realization and then losing it. The value of understanding the mechanism of the illusion is that you can see why that happens and it's prevented thereby. If you're not worried about that happening, then it's not an issue.

I'll see what the other guides think and get back to you soon.


Steve

[mllem]

Marlowe,

People talk about gaining a realization and then losing it. The value of understanding the mechanism of the illusion is that you can see why that happens and it's prevented thereby. If you're not worried about that happening, then it's not an issue.

I'll see what the other guides think and get back to you soon.


Steve

yes, i can see that. even thinking about what you said, what i call 'tea.' i refer to a number of things when i say or think 'tea,' but, for convenience sake, i guess, i think, 'tea.' or 'me.'

[blackh]

Hi Marlowe,

At the beginning you talked about seeking clarification on a few points, and that this seemed like a confirming context. What were you seeking clarification on? What has been confirmed without doubt from (your) side?

Thanks.


Steve

[mllem]

Hi Marlowe,

At the beginning you talked about seeking clarification on a few points, and that this seemed like a confirming context. What were you seeking clarification on? What has been confirmed without doubt from (your) side?

Thanks.


Steve

Hi Steve,
I think those points are lost in time and were "that side of the gate" considerations, if that makes sense. i guess i do wonder about my way forward. i've read most of jed mckenna's works; i've really moved away from my involvement with my "spiritual" community; that was rather intense as it was also, more or less my social community, plus i've been working as the assistant for a spiritual teacher in the community; for a time i've been feeling inauthentic participating in the practices of the group, plus feeling an aversion to group settings; it feels like a lonely place...
without doubt i could say it has been confirmed that the paragraph above is a story.

[blackh]

Hi Marlowe,

I also left a tradition that wasn't working for me when I went through LU.

What we're doing here is equivalent to going through the gateless gate (in Zen terms) or "stream entry" (in more general Buddhist terms). It's the first stage of enlightenment - in the Buddhist meaning of the word. Jed McKenna is talking about a more advanced stage, and so are Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj.

There are various options for further inquiry, and you can find out about those in the Facebook groups that we'll add you to once we've finished here.

I'm just waiting to make sure the other guides have no more questions. The Europeans are tucked up in bed right now.


Steve

[mllem]

No problem, Steve. I'm on the west coast of North America, so headed into later evening, here.

[blackh]

Hi Marlowe,

Could you share what you've seen, what the effects are since before you saw? What's a single example from everyday life, that for you, illustrates or expresses this seeing? Are you still feeling inauthentic? Lonely? If so, how does that play in with this seeing?

I want to encourage you to write lots. Trying to get more of a handle on the emotional and experiential side of things, more than just what you see, etc.


Steve

[mllem]

Hi Marlowe,

Could you share what you've seen, what the effects are since before you saw? What's a single example from everyday life, that for you, illustrates or expresses this seeing? Are you still feeling inauthentic? Lonely? If so, how does that play in with this seeing?

I want to encourage you to write lots. Trying to get more of a handle on the emotional and experiential side of things, more than just what you see, etc.


Steve

I think before I "saw" I kept trying to fit myself into a "human" world and faulted myself for not having "human" feelings, if that makes sense. The last "human" thing I did was to attend a retreat I'd been invited to and felt totally alienated from the "spiritual" practices, and finally admitted to myself that I was forcing myself to do this because otherwise I felt all alone. Yes, I have felt all alone and currently feel limited in my interactions with others, although I'm capable of passing. Does this make sense? I'm actually not sure where I stand in all this, but seem, at this moment, incapable of pretending. There may be more I wish to say. I need to reflect on that.

[blackh]

Hi Marlowe,

I want to make sure we do the best we can for you. The intensity of guiding is a wonderful opportunity. I think we might be onto something here, so I encourage you to write more.

Of course really your feelings are human by definition. This is absolutely not to dismiss what you say!

Q:
Take a moment to look around, both "inside yourself" and "outside" in the world. Then really focus on this question: Is there anything wrong?


Steve

[mllem]

no :)

[blackh]

Hi Marlowe,

Is there anything wrong?
no :)

Yes! It's all right that you let go of an expectation of how you should feel, and it's all right that a thought says your social communication is still not what you would like. This thought will come with an emotional colouring.

Are thoughts real?
Is their content real?
What are emotions? Are they real?
You said nothing is wrong. Why is nothing wrong?

And don't give me the Clint Eastwood answer this time. :)


Steve

[mllem]

Are thoughts real?
Is their content real?
What are emotions? Are they real?
You said nothing is wrong. Why is nothing wrong?

And don't give me the Clint Eastwood answer this time. :)


Steve

Hi Steve,
After I wrote that and went back to "life" (watching a movie), the "Yes, buts...." kicked in. Thoughts. Content of thoughts. Emotions. Thoughts appear. Their content?... Conflict; feelings of conflict about my "life" my "decisions." Technically, they are not real; they do recur as feelings and thoughts. In the moment when the question was asked, I looked, and, in that moment "nothing" was wrong :)