Wanted: direct experience

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

All these words are getting away from us I fear.

Do not fear. We will hone down on what we mean. We are in an area where word haven't yet been created to describe what we are talking about.
We have to use words that don't quite fit the meaning. Example; i use the word i & self. They are convenient concepts and i would be paralyzed in my communications if i didn't use them. i am aware though that it is a concept that i am using and that it doesn't point to anything actual. ..but that is left unsaid with most people.

Anyway, the word "being" implies that "some thing" is aware. Awareness happens when something capable of awareness or perception/experience becomes aware or perceives.

Yes, we are questioning those implications.
From the perspective of the organism, from experience, can you know this ?
..or is it second hand knowledge. Information. Is it ABOUT something ? Is it a concept ? ..a thought ?
Can you be still enough, that whatever is forefront in your attention, that you see that there is only the experiencing.
There is no such thing as attention. That is a concept that is use to describe a happening. It is not the happening itself.
There is no such thing as something being attended to.
There is no such thing as a doer of attending.
There is only attending.

Sit quietly and watch...

because I am only capable of experiencing via thought.

This needs to be investigated.
It is not true. Thought arrives after the experiencing has become an experience. That is a memory.
It arrives to describe the experience.
This may be done with communication in mind, or it may be done with explaining as its purpose.
It is the emotion that is engendered by this description that is often seen as the original experience. These emotions often accompany the judgements (opinions) that are woven through the description.

I can't know if anything is being experienced except in thought. I am limited to knowing what I can perceive, unless I imagine something based on previous ideas. Concurrently, I don't know if there is anything other than experiencing happening. I only know what is experienced, and I don't know if there is anything/anybody doing the experiencing (except in thought) because I am only capable of experiencing via thought.

OK, this is a thought bubble.
Reason doesn't cut it here. You have to LOOK.
Put what you have read or heard, in fact put all that you believe, in a category with the label To be assessed.(questioned)
Yes, i agree that you will have to work to get a glimpse of direct experiencing. Then you will see how quickly thought arrives to smother it and distort it into fitting with a story of you.

It depends if it "knows" it or has direct experience. If it just knows, then it knows just how I feel, and should probably seek help!

Direct experience, of what ?

love

vince

[moomon]

From the perspective of the organism, from experience, can you know this ?
..or is it second hand knowledge.

Everything is second hand knowledge, delivered to the "I" or "awareness" that "I" identifies itself with, from the brain/sensory input. We've discussed this. Everything we experience is after the fact, already processed by the brain, already judged good or bad, ect.

From the perspective of the organism, from experience, can you know this ?

I know that if something capable of awareness becomes aware then awareness has happened. If you are asking if I have direct experience of being aware, then yes, I have. If you are asking if I am aware that awareness can happen without something being aware of it, I would have to say no, as this doesn't sound logical. Awareness could certainly happen without the "I" identity, but every verb needs an subject, so one would have to discover the "other".

There is no such thing as attention. That is a concept that is use to describe a happening. It is not the happening itself.

Yes, I understand this.

It is the emotion that is engendered by this description that is often seen as the original experience. These emotions often accompany the judgements (opinions) that are woven through the description.

Yes, I understand this

, via direct experience.

Direct experience, of what ?

That was in response to your question "What if the wave discovers that it is the ocean ?" The wave may become aware, intellectually, that it is part of the ocean, but not feel it, know it on a deeper level. Words are hard here but I know you know what I mean. It's not enough to read all the books, meditate, listen to others who have awakened. You have to experience it for yourself to know it's real, that it's what you truly are. That's why I don't know what the wave would do; I haven't experienced myself as "the ocean".

You said you didn't awaken here at LU. So where did it happen for you?

G'night,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Moo,

but every verb needs an subject, so one would have to discover the "other".

This is a really critical point.
Yes, if we obey the rules of language this is so. Does language encompass all of life ?
Did language evolve in a culture of sleepwalkers ?
If it did, it would evolve only to reflect their perceptions. Would you agree ?
Desire here, is for you to discover (experience recognition) that (almost) everything we take to be actual is in fact your own unique concept.

You said you didn't awaken here at LU. So where did it happen for you?

It happened when i was told that the mosquito bite of seeking would never heal while I continued to scratch it.
THIS IS IT ! exploded in this head. (i discovered LU a week later)

love

vince

[moomon]

This is a really critical point.

And this is what I meant by the words getting away from us; the words were getting in my way. I thought about it today quite a bit and realized that by changing the words (inadequate pointers that they are) I felt I gained understanding. Presence, this presence I am cognizant of deep inside at all times is always aware, yet presence has no form, no "I". So I can now say with some authority (having looked deeper) that no, there doesn't have to be any "thing" for awareness to happen. It just is.

It happened when i was told that the mosquito bite of seeking would never heal while I continued to scratch it.
THIS IS IT ! exploded in this head. (i discovered LU a week later)

Goodness I hope it happens for me that way! I can't imagine the relief. Neat story, thank you for sharing. --Have to ask now, why did you look on LU if you were already "there"? Sounds like you were still looking for something..

Good night,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Moo,

So I can now say with some authority (having looked deeper) that no, there doesn't have to be any "thing" for awareness to happen. It just is.

Excellent. Can you see that it is more accurate to say that there is aware-ing ?
Can you see that anything other than this, 'exists' in the unknown ?

I can't imagine the relief. Neat story, thank you for sharing. --Have to ask now, why did you look on LU if you were already "there"? Sounds like you were still looking for something..

Yes, not looking for something more, but doubt thoughts arrived almost immediately. i was looking for confirmation.
i don't remember experiencing relief though. i flip flopped between certainty and doubt for some weeks, and had bouts of doubt, even after recognizing that they were just (conditioned) thoughts.
The portal that triggered recognition for me wasn't that Self is an illusion (although that was obvious), it was that what IS here, now, is IT ! Not only that what life presents, is inescapable, but that any opinion (judgement) about it not only obscures the beauty of it, but distorts it to a point of suffering.

love

vince

[moomon]

Excellent. Can you see that it is more accurate to say that there is aware-ing ?
Can you see that anything other than this, 'exists' in the unknown ?

I can sense that sometimes awareness just "is", without my understanding the why or how of it. I know that what I have experienced in that vein isn't something I'm going to be able to understand with mind, so I don't try to analyze it or hold on to it too strongly.

i was looking for confirmation

*sigh*. I would think that the lack of bells and wings sprouting from your back makes it very hard to know when you have arrived. We don't all get to be Yogananda! I want so much for it to matter (not change things necessarily but to MEAN something), that I worry if I don't even know it happened, how will it be meaningful? Nonetheless, the drive to keep going is relentless. No choice. In fact, since I started speaking with you there seems to be an uptick in momentum/urgency.

Self is an illusion (although that was obvious), it was that what IS here, now, is IT !

I understand that. I've spent much of my life in the woods, with animals. It makes that very clear. Our lives are no different than other life forms (we just dress it all up with nonsense), so the thought that there is more than this is truly illusion to be seen through.

Holidays are coming--back to the oven!

Love, Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

I know that what I have experienced in that vein isn't something I'm going to be able to understand with mind, so I don't try to analyze it or hold on to it too strongly.

Very sensible.
Do you also understand that no experience is permanent, ..or more accurately, impermanence is a characteristic of everything ?

makes it very hard to know when you have arrived.

Well, there weren't any kundalini explosions, or even bells and whistles, but the arrival was definite. It was after the excitement subsided a bit that the ordinariness of it ushered in doubt thoughts. i don't think that i have worked with anybody that hasn't experienced the doubt thoughts at some point.

how will it be meaningful?

Ah, good segue. If we look at meaning, can it be other than a story ?
Do you think that it is inherent in anything ? Does meaningfulness change with the times ?

the drive to keep going is relentless.

Excellent. That is what will get you through the gate.
Are you prepared to die to everything that you know ?
Is there anything about you that you like so much that you want to keep it ?

In fact, since I started speaking with you there seems to be an uptick in momentum/urgency.

If you imagine yourself running down a steep hill. It is fine while you continue to trot at an easy pace. You know that you will fall if you try to stop or go faster. There is nothing to do but be relaxed and allow gravity to keep you going.

so the thought that there is more than this is truly illusion to be seen through.

For you to say this shows that you have already seen through it. (unless you are repeating something that you have read or heard)

love

vince

[moomon]

Do you also understand that no experience is permanent, ..or more accurately, impermanence is a characteristic of everything ?

Oh yes, that's a no-brainer!

Well, there weren't any kundalini explosions, or even bells and whistles

Darn it! Why do they lie in all the books? Why glorify something that is already pretty much the ultimate?

i don't think that i have worked with anybody that hasn't experienced the doubt thoughts at some point.

Very reassuring.

If we look at meaning, can it be other than a story ?
Do you think that it is inherent in anything ? Does meaningfulness change with the times ?

Yes, it is just a story. Now I feel immature for even thinking that! I believe meaningfulness is inherent to the "I", so yes, it certainly changes with the times.. I see that now. Sheesh.

Are you prepared to die to everything that you know ?
Is there anything about you that you like so much that you want to keep it ?

That's such a big question...I don't know that I'm completely ready but some days I feel I am. Its' scary....
The only thing I like so much about myself that I'd want to keep is my husband's love. Don't want to lose that.

For you to say this shows that you have already seen through it. (unless you are repeating something that you have read or heard)

No, that was just me quoting me, however, I don't think I'm there yet. I mean, you said I'd know, and I don't feel I know at all. I may intellectually know, but then, there's that direct experience thing.....

Love,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Why do they lie in all the books? Why glorify something that is already pretty much the ultimate?

Good question. i don't have an answer. i could speculate but that seems a waste of energy. Maybe one day, that mystery will be revealed.

Now I feel immature for even thinking that!

When this happened, did you recognize that there was some story behind the feeling ?
Did you recognize that it was an opinion (judgement) ? How soon afterwards did the recognition happen ? If it hadn't happened until reading these words... Has it happened yet ?

The only thing I like so much about myself that I'd want to keep is my husband's love. Don't want to lose that.

How is this about yourself ? i presume that you actually mean that what you want to keep is the response to your perception of his love ? Is this accurate ?

I don't think I'm there yet.

i agree. It was the hollowness of meaning that is obviously seen through.

I may intellectually know, but then, there's that direct experience thing.....

Yes. Tell me why is it that a feeling can be believed more than something intellectual ?
Have you seen the Rubber Hand illusion ? https://www.dropbox.com/s/l5l95ekxxmaog ... n.mp4?dl=0
..but i do know what you mean. It takes something 'deeper' than a thought to evoke change.
i don't know what that 'something' is, but we will find it. (it happens regularly)

Let's move on from looking work something that is not there (a separate self), and look at what is there, that is mistaken for that separate self.
If you were to sit down and write down the likes and dislikes, the history, the aspirations of yourself, you would have many words. If you organize them into a coherent narrative, you would have a story of Self. Many chapters and great detail.
We look for confirmation of the details from the world around us. Things that affirm our image of ourselves. We defend this image. (don't insult me)
Can you see how this works ?

love

vince

[moomon]

i don't have an answer.

Probably to sell books! There's little point trying to explain people's behavior...It was more a hypothetical question. Thank you though. Now I can throw away all my Kundalini books...

When this happened, did you recognize that there was some story behind the feeling ?

The moment you asked me if meaning was really just another story it was realized. [I realize now you were asking me about feeling immature being a story, but I'm going with this anyway.] Finding meaning in something just means creating a story about it, doesn't it? The conversation is rattling my foundation a bit,but that's good. I'll be thinking about it a lot this week I'm sure, letting it sink in. I seem to need a lot of time to just think about these things you know?

Did you recognize that it was an opinion (judgement) ? How soon afterwards did the recognition happen ?

I didn't pay attention to the fact that feeling immature was just a judgement until you said it in this post. I don't worry too much about self-judgement though; I find it non-productive to learning anything. I did judge though , you are right. As for there being a story behind it, I guess I was just surprised you caught me spinning a story when I didn't catch myself, so I felt silly--I guess I felt I should know better, which is exactly the judgement I made in that moment.

How is this about yourself ? i presume that you actually mean that what you want to keep is the response to your perception of his love ? Is this accurate ?

Sorry, after 30 years of marriage I have a bit of trouble remembering where I end and he begins. I meant that I wouldn't want to give him reason to want to leave my orbit. As for "me" specifically, the "I", I can't think of anything I'm not willing to let go of, seeing as it's all just mind stuff anyway.

i agree. It was the hollowness of meaning that is obviously seen through.

What do you mean by this?

Yes. Tell me why is it that a feeling can be believed more than something intellectual ?

Because we know mind can be easily fooled; take your video for example. The right sensory input can make us believe, intellectually, that something is true when it is false. Having said that, the senses are more powerful, harder to deny. I have a pear tree with fruit that look just like apples. If I told you it was an apple tree you would believe me; if you tasted one of the fruit however, you know you are tasting a pear without a doubt.

We look for confirmation of the details from the world around us. Things that affirm our image of ourselves. We defend this image. (don't insult me) Can you see how this works ?

Goody, new assignment! Yes, I'm with you so far. I am conditioned to believing I am female. My environment supports this gender assignment.

Good night Vince,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Moo,

Now I can throw away all my Kundalini books...

Ha, yes. i hadn't picked up a book after waking, and had about 100 books in my 'spiritual' library. Couldn't give them away. They eventually went to Lifeline.

Finding meaning in something just means creating a story about it, doesn't it?

Yes. ..but remarkable how powerful that is for most.

I seem to need a lot of time to just think about these things you know?

No worries. Take all of the time that you need. Just keep the momentum up.

I was just surprised you caught me spinning a story when I didn't catch myself, so I felt silly--I guess I felt I should know better, which is exactly the judgement I made in that moment.

We are very good at selective perception. If you have a strong belief that you know the way, alternatives never get considered.

I meant that I wouldn't want to give him reason to want to leave my orbit.

We tend to see what we expect to see. My wife still sees me as the same weirdo that i always was.

i agree. It was the hollowness of meaning that is obviously seen through.

What do you mean by this?

Referring to your statement "Our lives are no different than other life forms (we just dress it all up with nonsense)" - That you already recognize this.

If you reach up and touch the back of your head, is there anything other than sensations and concept ?

love

vince

[moomon]

We tend to see what we expect to see. My wife still sees me as the same weirdo that i always was.

I think my worry comes from all that stuff I've read about awakening meaning everything falling away, including people, and relationships you may think you value. It's a little daunting, but the stories told by others are their stories, not mine.

Referring to your statement "Our lives are no different than other life forms (we just dress it all up with nonsense)" - That you already recognize this.

If you reach up and touch the back of your head, is there anything other than sensations and concept ?

Thanks for the clarification.

No--there is nothing on the back of my head other than the expected sensations and a well-developed concept of "back of head." I'm not sure how divine a creature you are, so FYI, I looked behind me to also make sure there was no one back there! (silliness)

G'night VInce,

Moo

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Moo,

I think my worry comes from all that stuff I've read about awakening meaning everything falling away, including people, and relationships you may think you value. It's a little daunting, but the stories told by others are their stories, not mine.

Yes, exactly.
Can worrying about what might happen, do anything other than load it with negative emotions and stress hormones ?

everything falling away, including people, and relationships you may think you value.

This does happen occasionally. It is usually preceded by a turbulent relationship.
i imagine that you have worked through a lot of psychological stuff already (as was the case for me).
This usually means a lot less drama at the point of waking up (to the illusion)
So rather than looking for a big outward explosion, see if it is more like an earthquake that happens at depth.
Rather than looking for 'big', look for 'deep'.
A quiet definite-ness.

No--there is nothing on the back of my head other than the expected sensations and a well-developed concept of "back of head."

Hmm, i get have the idea that this exercise was a bit 'ho-hum' for you.
i expect that this was the case because you already understand the difference between what is actual for the organism, and what is conceptual.
It is the discovery that prompts the shift in perspective, that we need for this to have the effect that you desire (an Aha!)
The next step is to understand that concept can be useful, but mostly isn't.
We need to establish a marker, a trigger that is associated with useful concepts. Once this happens, we can relegate all other thoughts to the background. We can't stop them, but we can give them the same status as the sound of the refrigerator. If something needs our attention, it will notify us. (the fridge will make a different sound) Otherwise it will be essentially ignored.

love

vince

[moomon]

Can worrying about what might happen, do anything other than load it with negative emotions and stress hormones ?

No it can't, and I honestly am willing to do whatever it takes so on some level I know I can handle whatever is lost. Pulling back just isn't an option.

i imagine that you have worked through a lot of psychological stuff already

Well, I certainly tell myself I have, but no, I can't honestly say I've dealt with many demons. Then again, I'm not sure I have more than one or two rattling around.

A quiet definite-ness.

Anything that involves "definites" sounds great to me!

Hmm, i get have the idea that this exercise was a bit 'ho-hum' for you.

That's okay. You're doing great, and I'm trained to be patient:).

We need to establish a marker, a trigger that is associated with useful concepts

Great! How the heck do we do that?

Until then,

Moomon

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Moo,

I honestly am willing to do whatever it takes so on some level I know I can handle whatever is lost.

Good. i applaud what is behind this.
i do need to point out, though, that there will be nothing lost. There might be the discovery that you never had something, but we needn't focus on what might or might not happen.

I can't honestly say I've dealt with many demons. Then again, I'm not sure I have more than one or two rattling around.

Most demons, if encountered, turn out to be pussy cats.

We need to establish a marker, a trigger that is associated with useful concepts.

Great! How the heck do we do that?

Hmm. ok, sloppy wording on my part.
What is more accurate is to say that we need to learn to recognize the marker that comes with useful thoughts.
They do have a different flavor. We will discover it simply by paying attention to the nature of thoughts that arise.
Can you think of any other kind of thought besides useful ones and ones to be ignored ? i guess that some of the non-useful ones could be called entertaining. .and ones that we used to think were useful but discover are really crap, can be pretty funny.

love

vince