The Gate

Hi Stefan,

Ok, before any more questions, please try a relaxation exercise:

Lie down on the floor. Make sure you are comfortable and warm.
Watch the sensations of the body.
Starting at the head, watch the sensations (maybe in the eyebrows or nose).
Ask if any unnecessary effort is being made. Are any muscles doing unnecessary work?
If any unnecessary effort is being made .... gently ask if it possible to stop making this effort.

In this way, work through the whole body. Watch sensation and then ask if any unnecessary effort is being made. Very gently, ask if it is possible to stop making this unnecessary effort.

When the exercise is complete - watch the sensations and know that these sensations are life! Everything is ok. Things are just as it has always been: sensation happening.

The amount of thoughts seems to have increased a lot after seeing that there is no self

Is it possible to explain exactly what has been seen?

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

thanks for the lovely exercise! It is just very difficult to do, if other thoughts are racing so strongly...

The amount of thoughts seems to have increased a lot after seeing that there is no self


Is it possible to explain exactly what has been seen?

What is seen is that there never was, is or will be a separate self.
"I" had experienced this before during periods of absence of thoughts- that there is no "self" without thoughts, but i never considered really, that there is also no self, if there are thoughts and attetchments. That happened thanks to 2 pointers from Xain, the recognition of it was not very difficult, since intellectually i understood it many year ago already. But to see it with this clarity and certainty like now is something completely different.

There are also some changes persieved since then: first of all the heavily increased amount of thoughts and dialogues which are going on day and night. Luckily i give not so much importance to them anymore, taking things generally much less serious than before. Also i feel much more energy, need less coffee altough i sleep very little.
The most important thing is maybe, that i feel much more authentic. i feel much more generally and being much more spontanous than before. Decisions are taken more easily, much less dominated by fears. I feel also more accepting things, sometimes there is a feeling i hardly knew before: that everything is perfect and good as it is and could not be different. (Normally i struggeled strongly with the question: what should i do, what is the best thing to do to reach liberation?, that seems to go completely and this is a big shift, i canot oversee rightnow where it will lead, it will lead most probably to strong changes in my life.)
Also it feels not right anymore to use the word i so much, and there is more awareness when others are using it, that they talk about an illusion, making their lives needlessly difficult.

On the other hand, sometime i still feel some fear coming up, if i believe thoughts that say f.e. that this amount of thoughts is too much or could become too much, that a belief in an i is maybe needed as a defense mechanism for the strong feelings i described before of joy or fear which come up maybe because of old trauma, a kundalini awakening or just because i am extremely hypersensitive- i dont know... Its a fear to get overwhelmed, which i had all my life and which motivated probably much of my spiritual search, too.


I have to finish now, want to go biking in nice nature...

Have a nice day and thaks for keeping on

Stefan

Hi Nina,

i just want to tell you that thoughts are calming down since yesterday and slowly i can see the real benefit this "seeing that there is no self" has brought: the understanding, that there is really nothing to do, a thought (to have to do something, to know what is the right thing to do) that tormented me, until it is clearly seen now that there was, is or will be never a separate self that could do something. Also here, the intellectual understanding of that settled since a few years, but to see it clearly as the "only reality" is something completely different, because it influences much deeper the feelings one has.

Slowly this new understanding settles and brings an extremly strongly felt peace- i can only see the beginning of it happening now.

So i am extremely grateful (mainly to Xain, but also to the rest of this forum- it seems to be really a wonderful tool to liberate beings...), this has really far surpassed my expactations (which were getting smaller in this process, especially after reading some threads where not much seemed to happen to the people after liberation from belief in a self).

Of course it seems to be a never ending process, especially if one aspires to help others and wants to develop some qualities for that.
Helpful were also the "deep looking" and other blogs from Ilona- I wish her wholeheartedly everything good on her way to explore magic!
The most helpful self-help tool (or actually the only one that worked for me out of the countless i tried) are prayers to forces bigger than the self.

Have a nice day

Stefan

Hi Stephan,

Sorry for the delay in replying. But it is great to see that things are settling! "Emotions" and thoughts can become quite disturbed after the illusion is seen. Sensations bubble up and thought seems to run a "problem solve" programme. Keep trying the relaxation - it was the key for me!

There are a few more things to look at while things settle. The exercises will help with clarity too.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes (or in a dark room).
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Have some fun with it!

Lots of love

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

Keep trying the relaxation - it was the key for me!

Yes, its the key for me, too- especially for intense states and processes its very important to relax enough.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes (or in a dark room).
Pay attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images: 
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, because withot thought, there is no comparation or messurement possible.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

 
No, without labeling, there is no persieving of shape or form.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? 
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? 

No, withot labeling, there is no boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly? 

No, without labeling there is no inside or outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? 

It refers to a thought, an imagination, something that does not exist actually in attention to pure sensations. Actually it refers to nothing, like the word i or any other word.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

 
Without thinking, there is no actual experience of the body.There are only freely experienced sense perceptions without a reference to a body, without a borderline between inside or outside a body.

Its a bit funny, how something that we refer to with so much felt assurance like our body does not ACTUALLY exist even with open eyes- only in imagination, which distorts sense perception after it arises by naming it anf thereby limiting it- without words, no body would come into existence.

Have some fun with it!

Ok, i will try do it more often today.

Lots of love, peace and happiness!

Stefan

Hi Stephan,

Really beautiful looking at the "body"! Fantastic that you can see it is all just thought labels and that "body" is just a label.

Here are two more exercises to look at. The first is about "time" and the second is about "memory":

1)There is a general assumption that there is a linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

How fast the present moment is actually moving?

How long does the now last?

Where does it start and where does it end?

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

What is the past in the actual experience?

Please look for the answers many-many times!!!


2) Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? (from Actual Experience)

What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Please spend lot of time (!!!!) with EACH question… Look very carefully… Look at what actually going on and not what thoughts ..... not what thoughts say .... but what actually is!

Again ... try to have some fun with looking. And remember not to make too much effort!!

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

i will try „to have some fun with looking“ on your questions today, yesterday that seemed to be impossible- altough i answered all of them, after it i felt so unhappy, that i did not even wanted to post them...

The problem seems to be, that this questions dont appear in actual experience with the 5 senses, they appear in thinking only and i feel supposed to answer them with words (a smile would probably not count as an answer...).

So in trying to answer with words, this leads to more and more thinking and further away from actual experience or from „having some fun“.
Still i can see some value in it- to look more closely on experience and on thought and to do that effortless, with less tension, so i will do it in the next days again.

On the level of words all questions could be answered in one sentence (i did this in my last post already): all words like i, body, time, memory, now, past and future or any other words refer to nothing in actual experience with the 5 senses, they refer to thoughts after actual experience, so they exist only as imagination, assumption or label of something that has no true existence.

I hope i will have some fun with further looking and giving more detailed answers.

Best wishes

Stefan

Hi Stefan,

You sound like you are really struggling with thoughts! I can understand how these exercises would be difficult if thought seems uncomfortable at the moment.

Thought is actual experience - that is, the appearance of thought is AE.

Do you have a sitting meditation practice? It seems that it maybe a good idea to stay absolutely with actual experience, turning towards sensation and thoughts. It maybe that the waves need to break for a while ..... see what is there.

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

its not that i struggle with thoughts, altough there is a preference of thoughtless states (which open blockages in the body, which is felt as happiness) in comparation to states with lots of thinking, because these lead often to contractions and unhappiness.

I can see that there is still a lot of resistance against AE of sensations and thoughts, mostly habitual- because half of my life i believed that much has to change to get rid of suffering.
Just recently i see how much actually the assumption that things have to change are the very cause of this suffering- in simply being with whatever is experienced the most lasting relaxation and therefore happiness is found directly, without the oscillations or waves of limited states of relaxation or contraction (which are mutually reinforcing, depending on each other).
And this assumption is just one in a cloud of beliefs in which i lived all the time...

So thanks a lot for helping me seeing that!

Stefan

Hi Nina,

i looked a few more times on your questions, but not much new things came up, so i will jus post the letter i wrote some days ago. In giving an answer in words, one needs to think. Many thoughts arise and build up stories, which leads more and more away from AE. Ican see the value in looking again and again, but to answer so many questions with words is simply painful for me. Please only ask 3 questions per day, if you still want to ask more.

Here are two more exercises to look at. The first is about "time" and the second is about "memory":

1)There is a general assumption that there is a linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the now is moving along the line of time?

No, without words there is no comparison or measurement and therefore no experience of something moving in time possible.

How fast the present moment is actually moving?

It is not moving in actual experience.

How long does the now last?

It does not last in actual experience.

Where does it start and where does it end?

It does not start or end in actual experience.

When does the now exactly become the 'past'?

It does not become the past in actual experience, only if actual experience is lost and thoughts about it are persieved, believed and followed someone could speak about something like „past“.

What is the past in the actual experience?

In the actual experience there is no past, only if thoughts are there- after the actual experience, naming and labeling it, building up stories- can something like time be assumed. If this thought is beliefed to be real, feelings like stress come into existence and reinforce this belief.

2) Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. 
That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

What is memory exactly? (from Actual Experience)

In actual experience there is no memory. Its a concept or label put on experiences, a story line made of thoughts, assumptions and beliefs which dont exist in AE.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Its made of thoughts which have as content „experiences“ made in the „past“.

WHEN does the memory appear?

It is persieved here and now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

The difference is the content – a memory thought is about „experiences“ made in the „past“ or the labels put on them.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It is known through remembering, recognizing an experience, that has happened in the past.

Then, look at a thought about th e future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Its made of content about an experience assumed to happen in the future.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

It can appear anytime, it is persieved here and now.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Again its content.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen

?

It is known by assuming an experience to happen in the future.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

The differnce is the content- wheter it is about experiences in the past or in the future.

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

It is known by assuming, believing that there are past and future and experiences made respectivly in either one of them.

Your last advise to just stay with the AE of sensations and thoughts makes MUCH more sense to me than to answer all this questions with words.

Have a nice day

Stefan

Hi Stefan!

Thank you for your replies. They were very clear.

I have no more exercises for you!

However, there are some final questions that I need to ask. I will ask them one at a time - please answer as briefly as you like!

The first question is -

In very simple words, how would explain the illusion of the seperate self to a friend?


Thanks for staying with this process Stefan!

Very best wishes

Nina
Xxx

Hi Nina,

In very simple words, how would explain the illusion of the seperate self to a friend? 

The self we are talking so often about is- when looked closely upon- seen as a label, a word for something which does not exist. If looked closely upon it is seen that there is only a word or thought that suggest that something is there, but if one looks closely, no thing is found.
So whats left is just a word without any importance given to it, one stays there in wonder like a child- everything is new and fresh from moment to moment...

Thanks so much for simplifying your questions!

And thanks for your patience in guiding people to see the truth and make this world a better place!

Hi Stefan,

I have a sickness virus at the moment .... I will get back to you in a few days when I can make a sentence!!

Nina
Xxx

Ok, have a nice rest!

Hi Stefan,

Thank you - the first answer is very clear!

The second question is:

Was there ever a seperate self? When or how did the illusion start?

Very best wishes

Nina