Guide available - Breaking first fetter / Stream Entry / Emptiness of Self

[magicking27]

Yes, I want to continue.

I have been off the grid working for a few days.

I cannot find a process or a self anywhere. I will answer more specifically later.

[magicking27]

1) In 'thinking' (or imagining) is there anything else to be found other than the current thought or the current imagined image?

No. Sometimes more than one thought comes up in a sort of sequence, but nothing else can be found.

2) Can you find an activity of 'thinking' / 'imagining' being carried out? Or is there just 'the current thought' etc

there are "thoughts," which come and go. But they are just "thoughts." There is no apparent "thinker" controlling the process. The thoughts continue to pop up even if they are asked to stop. The choice of images is a non-choice. When asked to "imagine something" Something comes up. More than one think may come up, but the process of choosing is not really there. Images simply occur. The idea of someone choosing them is just a convenient illusion.

3) What choice did you have to think or imagine what you did?

It seems like there should be a control agent but there is not. When given the task to "imagine something" there is just what is imagined. No process or doer is necessary. It just happens, or is an experience. The thought "think of something different" may or may not come up, but it is nothing other than a thought, and another "something imagined" may happen after that. "Jason" is not doing any of it. "Jason" is impossible to locate in the situation at all. There are just "thoughts" and "images," none of which are Jason.

4) Is there any control AT ALL in thinking and imagining? What would have it?

No, there is nothing in control.

4) Is there someone thinking or imagining here right now?

No.

[Xain]

Great replies, Jason.

I push hard on thinking because it is a common expectation that thoughts will change or stop as a result of this guidance.
Or that the 'I' thought will stop appearing or will be 'seen through'.
All of these expectations require a controlling agent or one that has choice.

We have examined experience in relation to a separate body or 'I' responsible.
We have examined choice and control in relation to a separate body or 'I' being responsible.
We have examined 'thoughts and imagination in relation to a body or 'I' responsible.

Ok, So some more general questions now.

Right now, is there an 'I' or a body seeing this text and reading these words?
In a moment, you will type a reply. Will there be any choice in what you type? Will there be a 'real' you typing?
Was there a 'real' choice in asking for my guidance on this forum?
Is there a 'real' separate Jason here right now?
Was there ever a 'real' I?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Right now, is there an 'I' or a body seeing this text and reading these words?

Seeing and reading is happening. "I" only happens if thoughts relating to "I" come up. They are just thoughts that point to other thoughts. There is no real constant "I"

There is a body. The body is not reading or seeing.

Seeing is happening.

Awareness can happen. Awareness of sensations that relate to a body can happen. A body is not reading or seeing. A body is typing.

In a moment, you will type a reply. Will there be any choice in what you type? Will there be a 'real' you typing?

Yes, there is a choice. But it is not made by an "I." It is almost random. No, could be typed too. Because it is not a real choice made by an "I" but rather a spontaneous manifestation based on the circumstances. Xain could ask for a response about a type of dog. "Cocker Spaniel" might occur to awareness. Or "Golden Retriever." Or "Shitzipoo." All just come up spontaneously without any need of any "me" or "I" getting involved.

Was there a 'real' choice in asking for my guidance on this forum?

It doesn't seem so. How would that have happened when thoughts and actions are spontaneous occurrences unrelated to an "I?"

Is there a 'real' separate Jason here right now?

Separate from what?

There is the experience of this moment.

There are an infinite number of possible paths from this moment.

There is an infinite creative flow of concepts and ideas.

There is no chooser, just what is chosen, no experiencer, just experience.

Death has lost its sting.

Was there ever a 'real' I?

No. :-)

[Xain]

Awareness of sensations that relate to a body can happen.

How are the sensations related to the body?

Yes, there is a choice. But it is not made by an "I."

Ok. When you did the exercise, what did you find making the choice?
A choice would require a chooser.

It is almost random.

It doesn't seem random, though - I can understand your reply.

Because it is not a real choice made by an "I" but rather a spontaneous manifestation based on the circumstances

By what mechanism does this 'manifestation' operate through?
Did you find a spontaneous manifestation making the choice when you did the exercise?

Is there a 'real' separate Jason here right now?
Separate from what?

In my guidance, I have assumed there is 'what can be seen', 'what can be heard', 'what can be thought' etc.
Is there a 'real' separate Jason found outside of these things?

There are an infinite number of possible paths from this moment.

Paths for who or what?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

tingles, warmth, heaviness, sharpness, coolness. these are sensations. They come and go. But when they come they bring the thought "body" and its various pieces. Are they related? Maybe not! I guess not, except by thought.

Nothing is making the choices. But there is more than one possible conclusion to things. "Soup" or "salad" one goes into the mouth the other does not. Both are present as possible conclusions even without agency for choice. No "I" makes the choice. But both are there. One gets chosen. Is the conclusion inherent before the conclusion happens? If a coin is flipped it lands one way and there is another way it could land. Is that decided in advance of the throw? It seems a spontaneous arising from the circumstances. All of these things seem to come into being spontaneously as a result of attending to them.

Mechanism? The choice is a spontaneous occurrence. There is no real chooser steering the conclusion, but it still happens. Xain said allow images to pop into the field of awareness. Images popped into awareness. Images can be anything. Specific ones popped in. This is the spontaneous mechanism. That is the best words that seem to apply. It is random, but within a specific collective of possibilities. Or you could say it is caused by the entire sequence of events since the big bang. Or you could say it is totally unrelated to anything just spontaneously arising. It all sounds the same. It is undecided before the request, but there is no decider. It just happens.

The pieces of any experience come together for that experience, then disappear into another experience. The collective is what keeps together the illusion of an "ego," but it is really just a set of experiences.

No, there is no real Jason.

[Xain]

But there is more than one possible conclusion to things

I would agree that through thinking, we can assume that life will either go one way or another.

One gets chosen.

A choice can only be said to happen if there was a chooser.
Something separate making a decision.
If there is nothing separate to be found choosing, then there can be no 'real' choice.
Is this not the case?

We can talk and think about making choices.
We can also talk and think about people making choices, and decisions.

In the exercise, was anything found making a choice?
If there was not, then why insist on a definite choice being made?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Choice is an unskillful word. It does seem to imply a chooser. "Chance" would be better.

So, no there is no choice being made by a chooser. It is all just arising.

So, there are no paths. Just what is.

[Xain]

Ok, Jason.

Do you feel confident that you have realised that there is no separate self outside of thought?

I understand the lack of a personal self as a truly existing thing, but it comes with a feeling almost of sadness or melancholy, and I was told that isn't right. So, help! :-)

How about what you wrote here?
How do you feel about things now?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Do you feel confident that you have realised that there is no separate self outside of thought?

There is no separate self outside of thought. That is very clear.

"I understand the lack of a personal self as a truly existing thing, but it comes with a feeling almost of sadness or melancholy, and I was told that isn't right. So, help! :-)

How about what you wrote here?
How do you feel about things now?

It sounds silly. How can a lack of something be a thing? LOL. I know what was meant by the statement, but it still sounds silly.

Thoughts can seem sad still, but it doesn't have anything to do with the things that seemed sad before. They are just thoughts and don't point to anything that actually exists.

Less negative thoughts seem to arise, and those that do seem toothless.

[Xain]

Thank you, Jason.
There are a further six questions I ask as part of this process.

Here are the first three of the six.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) from before you started this guidance with me?
Please report from the past few days.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Okay so the Jason illusion reemerged pretty strongly in the last 48 hours, due to a very large number of big unpleasant perceptions. But this has given an opportunity to explore difficult emotions and thoughts and to see that they also point toward nothing but other thoughts.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. But there is a pernicious illusion of self based upon thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience and understanding. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts in childhood. The "self/ego" is a bunch of thoughts created by the environment and seems to be largely to "protect" the collection of body parts and the individual perception perspective from what is perceived to be a hostile environment/other. It uses multiple inputs (sensory and mental) to create a persistent sense of individuality despite the fact that each of these parts are simply percepts which emerge separately in the one environment of life.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference (if anything) from before you started this guidance with me?
Please report from the past few days.

It really hasn't changed anything other than that when "horrible things" happen to "Jason" it is possible to look at them as simply direct experience and to not attach importance to them as affecting a "me" who needs to be defended. They are just unpleasant percepts.

However, there are lots of times when "Jason" does indulge in negative thinking patterns until such time as the thought "this is just thoughts, things seen, and feelings felt" at which point the "importance" breaks down. So, that is where things are.

[Xain]

No. But there is a pernicious illusion of self based upon thoughts.

Ok, I understand.
Can you describe this, and also explain to me fully what you understand to be happening from what you have realised.

. . . and the individual perception perspective

Can you explain what you mean here, please?
Are you describing a specific location?
What is at this location?

It really hasn't changed anything other than that when "horrible things" happen to "Jason" it is possible to look at them as simply direct experience and to not attach importance to them as affecting a "me" who needs to be defended. They are just unpleasant percepts.

However, there are lots of times when "Jason" does indulge in negative thinking patterns until such time as the thought "this is just thoughts, things seen, and feelings felt"

No need to use quotation marks - Just use normal language.
At what stage in what you have just described, is there a 'real' Jason either doing something, having something happen to them, thinking or feeling?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

and also explain to me fully what you understand to be happening from what you have realised.

Thoughts occur. They have a possessive quality. This creates the illusion. Individuality is a form of thought taught to us as children. Sometimes directly from parents sometimes from environmental experiences such as falling or being burned. All of these are just occurrences and there is no doer.

Can you explain what you mean here, please?
Are you describing a specific location?
What is at this location?

No there is no specific location. It can seem so, but all the different thoughts simply point to each other.

At what stage in what you have just described, is there a 'real' Jason either doing something, having something happen to them, thinking or feeling?

There is not. These experiences just are, but an imaginary Jason does take imaginary possession of them sometimes. Not sure how to be more clear. When a perception of something unpleasant comes up, the tendency to see it as happening to a Jason is hard to avoid, though it easy to also see this as not actually so.

[Xain]

It really hasn't changed anything other than that when "horrible things" happen to "Jason" it is possible to look at them as simply direct experience and to not attach importance to them as affecting a "me" who needs to be defended.

Is there a real Jason doing that (examining horrible things)?

Here are the final three questions:

4) Was there something you looked into or something I may have mentioned that made you fully realise - Was there a moment where you 'tipped over' into realising 'no self'?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control as you understand it now. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if you can.

6) Do you have anything further you would like to add?

Xain ♥