The Penny Drops

[Alexw]

Hi Christine,

You have put together a solid and logical path that seems to lead to the result "all that is is awareness", but unfortunately logic will not really help in this inquiry. So lets look again.

If the eyes are closed, no seeing happens so there is a sense that the seeing happens inside this body as it is dependent on the eyes. If the body were not there there would be no seeing of this lamp by this body.

No objects being present doesn't mean that no seeing happens. Even with your eyes closed there is the seen, isn't there? It is black, sometimes some shimmering lights appear, and sometimes you even see shapes and forms even when your eyes are closed.
Then you fall asleep, you dream... Do your eyes see in a dream? No... but you still see, hear, feel, think... Even without a body being present...
So lets stick with direct experience and leave this logical deduction aside for now - just look at what is and not why it is.

The hand can also touch the lamp and an experience arises of its coolness. The experience appears to be in the fingers. The experience does not appear to be in the head.

A location can only be a location relative to a reference point, right? So to pinpoint something as "over there" a here has to be established first. The key to seeing through the belief of "objects are out there" is not in seeing the locationless-ness of each object, but rather that there is no "here" in the first place... Makes sense?
The first approach would be a neti-neti approach where we look at each object and say not this (there)... But: The final approach is to realise the perfect emptiness of the concept "here".

So... lets first look at how a location of an object is perceived. Sit down and put your hand on the desk. Close your eyes and simply feel the sensations that seem to arise from your hand. There might be a certain switch of focus from your hand to "somewhere else"... note it but bring your attention back to your hand - feel ONLY your hand. Relax into this for a few minutes. Only feel the sensations labelled "hand". Now, without a reference point, where is your hand? Where is this tingling/pressure? Does it need a location to be felt? Does it need a feeler to be felt? Or is it simply "there" (not meant to be a location), but at the same time nowhere specific?

Now try to look at a sensation "in your head". Maybe the pressure behind the eyes. Do the same as before. Close your eyes and simply feel this sensation. What can be said about it? Is it more than just a certain pressure that is present "nowhere"?

Also, I am not saying that one should abandon all conceptual ideas and supports. It is great that we can pinpoint a sensation as "in my head", but what we are doing here is looking underneath these conceptual structures, directly at experience. Is there a "in my head" in direct experience at all? Or is this only an interpretation?

Alex

[Penrose]

Hi Alex
Thank you for your patience. You are right about the logical analysis!! Mmmm... You are also right about seeing with the eyes shut - hadn't thought about that ... and dreaming.

I spent some time doing the focusing on the hand activity but to be honest still had a sensation of arm which also gave some sense of location. However, I also discovered that I could go to a space of awareness and when in this space the sensations of the body lost location. It is was if I was not directing attention to the hand because attention was somehow resting in awareness. Awareness 'knew' there was a sensation but it felt on some level dissociated from it.
I do seem to have 'discovered' this place of pure awareness. Of course I have been there before, but it seems rather different now. I seem to be able to withdraw into it more, to dissociate from thoughts and body. I am quite surprised that even as i sit at the computer i can close my eyes for a moment and be there - just slightly apart from everything - thoughts and sensations. It is a change in attention. Attention is there but it has withdrawn, less effortful, more restful. Its as if when focusing on the hand I am almost trying too hard to have attention on 'lack of location'. But when attention is removed and taken inwards there is a change in perception.
With regard to the head. There was nothing there - except breathing.

[Alexw]

I spent some time doing the focusing on the hand activity but to be honest still had a sensation of arm which also gave some sense of location. However, I also discovered that I could go to a space of awareness and when in this space the sensations of the body lost location.

This "space of awareness"... how would you describe it? Is this space maybe the same as "unfocussed" awareness? Awareness being perfectly present but there is no awareness of an object? If so then what you are describing is what might also be called non-dual awareness where there is perfect presence but no objective awareness. When focussing on an object happens again then this non-dual awareness seems to be replaced by duality - a me here and an object out there... But have a close look, the "awareness" hasn't changed it has only zoomed in to a specific part of experience... When not getting entangled in naming, conceptualising and story-telling then the object will just pass by like a cloud in the sky and you return to natural, non-dual awareness (non objective experience).
But: Is there really someone "going to a space of awareness"? Who would that be? Or is there simply non-dual, non-personal awareness as a natural state of being and then, occasionally, objects are being identified, which seemingly create duality..?
The issue is that most people live 99.9% of their time in objective, dual, relative experience/awareness and non-dual awareness is completely overlooked. Whereas the natural state is to abide in non-dual awareness most of the time and duality only appears "on demand"...

[Penrose]

'Unfocused awareness' is a good description. Everything is still there but is somehow more distant. No there is nobody' going to the space of awareness it is just 'being'. But I lay in bed this morning (I seem to do a lot of this reflecting and looking when I am in bed!) with my eyes closed and the sense of being this space or place of awareness. It was deeply peaceful and 'I' just wanted to stay resting in it. I wondered what would happen when I opened my eyes. For a while that sense of 'being awareness' remained, but as I got up and into my normal activities it faded. Having said that when I pause or stop I can feel it.

It is very difficult to use appropriate words here. Phrases like " I feel it' or 'I am it' or I 'enter it' all seem to be slightly wrong. So I might not be expressing myself very well!

[Alexw]

It is very difficult to use appropriate words here. Phrases like " I feel it' or 'I am it' or I 'enter it' all seem to be slightly wrong. So I might not be expressing myself very well!

Yes, I agree, it is difficult to find the right words - and even more difficult to have two people talking about it and trying to stay on the same page...
Anyway, I know what you mean and, yes, using personal pronouns and stating things like "I feel it" doesn't make sense at all, does it?
When you "feel it" or when you "are it", what makes this sensation/experience personal? Is there an experiencer at all?
Or is there simply "what is"? Do you feel that any description or definition is really ultimately "true"? Is there something like real knowledge?

For a while that sense of 'being awareness' remained, but as I got up and into my normal activities it faded.

Yes, our daily activities require duality - they are superimposed over the non-dual reality - but this does not mean that reality has changed in any way... It is simply an objective filter that is being utilised. You can always look past these interpretations of there being a subject and objects - they are just conventional agreements that can be used for navigating daily life, they are only true in relation to something else being wrong, but these concepts don't exist in pure presence/awareness, do they?

[Penrose]

Do you feel that any description or definition is really ultimately "true"? Is there something like real knowledge?

It would seem that the only ultimate truth can be that 'I am'. Every other kind of knowledge or experience is all arising within the 'I am". As soon as language is used to describe the 'knowledge' it becomes limited and is seen through the filter of duality.

I was going to write more - more reflecting, more exploring - but wisdom says that perhaps, just at the moment, there is nothing more to be said.

But you may disagree!

So....... Where do I go from here? Perhaps there is nowhere to go... and nobody to go there :-)

Except there is still a life to be lived in this body mind, and in the world of duality there is still much to be learned, seen, understood and enjoyed.

[Alexw]

Yes, I agree, there is nothing to be said - its better to simply enjoy life from this new "perspective" and not analyse things too much. When a problem seems to arise - look at it and see it for what it is...

So, yes, "there is still a life to be lived", but this life has lost its form as an island, it has become the ocean and everything arises and falls "within".

I don't have any more questions for you except these four last questions that normally sum up our guiding dialogues. Do you have more questions or doubts that arise? If not, please have a look at them when you find the time:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

3) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

4) Anything to add?

Alex

[Penrose]

Alex
This is just a 'holding' reply. I will be writing answers to the questions but feel that I would like to have a few days just to be with them. There seems to be quite a bit of 'process' going on. The mind is very lively thinking, questioning,challenging. There is an unfolding and a shifting. I was going to say I have not gone away (i.e. I will be responding) then realised how ironic that statement might be!!! :-)
Christine

[Alexw]

Yes, please, take your time and let this unfolding happen.

[Penrose]

Dear Alex

There is no separate entity which can be called a self, I or me. There never was.

Thoughts arise which together create a story of 'me'; the kind of person I think I am, the collection of memories, perceived limitations, preferences, temperament. There is a body which feels to be 'mine' but this sense of 'mine' is also a belief which arises in thought. There is no 'me' for the body to belong to, it is here, now, just as the birds, the trees, the desk and the window are here now. But there is an extra intimacy with the body.

In thinking about what to write in addressing these questions the mind has been very active. Do I really know there is no entity called me? Surely there should have been some great experience, an explosion of oneness, a deep experience of being connected to everything. But who would be having that experience? Who is it who wants or feels they need this experience in order to declare that they do not exist? It becomes a crazy mind game. No. It is enough to know that I am. Within that 'I am' all arises and it is all as it needs to be even if it may not always feel that way.

So what has it been like? A flurry of thinking, trying to grasp, at times waking with a feeling of fear, a sitting in presence experiencing the peace of it, the welling up of tears being moved by the sheer joy and beauty of existence, a desire and willingness to go with the flow of life and to tune to what is, some sense of excitement, a game to be played, a ride to be had, who knows what it will bring? A coming together and a making sense of so many religious and spiritual teachings which may have felt abstract or incomprehensible. Yet still no real understanding. How could it possibly be understood?
I am there, I am here. Now. It is so very simple.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all concepts created by the mind. They can be seen in some ways as experiences after the fact. Something happens, I turn left rather than right. I feel that I made the choice. But in reality turning left happens and it is only afterwards that the mind then creates the story of choice, decision or free will. Tonight I helped a foreign visitor to London negotiate a tube ride. It might appear that 'I' chose to help him but this is the story created around the incident. The man was confused, the response here was to answer his question and guide him to the right place. It just happened. Feelings of happiness arise, there is joy in the meeting but nobody was responsible for the helping.

Anything to add?
Probably this would only be more questions created by the mind. So I think that all that needs to be said at this point has been said. Apart perhaps to say how valuable this process has been. It has made me look so much more closely and taken me to a new place - even though there is no 'me' to go there! Thank you again to you Alex but also to everyone who works behind the scenes at LU. It is a great gift.
Christine

[Alexw]

Hi Christine,

Thank you for your beautiful answers.
I enjoyed our discussion very much.

Maybe one more thing:
Could you please talk a bit more about this "I am", within which everything arises. What makes it you?
Is there a difference between this "I am" and this current experience?
Do you feel that there are certain "parts" of this experience that qualify as "I am" and others that don't?

Alex

[Penrose]

Could you please talk a bit more about this "I am", within which everything arises. What makes it you?
Is there a difference between this "I am" and this current experience?
Do you feel that there are certain "parts" of this experience that qualify as "I am" and others that don't?

I think there can be a difficulty here with the word 'I' because "I" is used usually to refer to this 'personal' sense of self, but the "I am" includes but is also beyond the personal. When sitting in silence there can be a sense of that silent space of awareness, a nothingness. In the silence experiences arise; the sound of a bird, the tingling in the fingers, on opening the eyes.. a lamp. It can appear that the sound of the bird and the sight of the lamp are 'out there', yet they are also experienced 'in here'. Inner and outer become one. On hunting for the 'I who is doing the seeing or the hearing it cannot be found. So the awareness in which the sounds, sights and sensations arise cannot be separated from the experience. In this sense I am the lamp, the bird, the fingers.
'What makes it you' seems a strange question. How can it not be me? What does the question mean? We have already said there is no 'me'. I am everything and nothing. I am the personal sense of me and I am the wind and the sky. There is nothing in experience which I am not...is there not?!

[Alexw]

Hi Christine,

Thank you again for your beautiful reply.

Do you use Facebook? If so, can you please send me a private message with a link to your FB page so I can add you to the LU Facebook groups. There are many great people there to share experiences and discuss LU related topics.

It was a pleasure talking to you.

Kind regards,
Alex