Per aspera ad astra

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,


Ah. Thanks. I'll check back :-)


Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Ahh thank you for understanding and waiting for my response :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Following the exercises we did, 'separate' self can not be found in the past, present or future.

2)Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now as if to someone who had never heard of noself before?

The illusion of a separate self is when it is believed that 'we' are just our bodies, thoughts, feelings. For example, now you have posted these questions, a bit of a cramp in by belly arose and feelings of nervousness appeared. Alongside discursive thoughts - 'i'm not sure 'i' can answer theses questions' , 'it is too early for 'me' to be able to respond to these questions'. But the truth is- there is never 'i' there who can be ready to answer these questions and determine whether it is too soon or too early to respond. The 'separate self' works by labeling the thoughts and feelings, attributing them as 'good' or 'bad'. The separate self is basically a memory of our past experience or a future fantasy. 'It' wants approval, appraisal, positive feedback, appreciation and strives to avoid pain, suffering, criticism..

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It comes with a tremendous sense of freedom - the fear of answering 'wrong', 'not good enough' fades away when there is a realization that there is no 'me' that is answering, that there is 'noone' to be judged or critizided. My last couple of days have been a bit of a curve ball though - I did a dish washing job at the weekend which was physically and mentally one of the toughest things I have ever done- the cafe served 550 scones and 40 cakes, 18kg of jam , 30 litres of soup over the weekend and probably a ton of tea/coffee and me and my friend hand washed all the dishes! I also started seeing my ex last week which is a bit of a 'set back'. The difference between now and prior to our correspondence is how these experiences are now viewed and the state of calm it brings. There is a deep knowing that it is all okay, that there are situations in life which happen and which can be 'challenging'. I didn't have time to 'look' at 'my' anger when the waiters kept bringing tray after tray of dirty dishes mounting up on the floor as there was no 'dirty dish-free' counter space, self-pity was arising, some sort of feelings of resistance towards self pity appeared too. But now having some quiet time to reflect, it was a separate self playing games with itself as it can not play games with the loving presence behind it all. That loving presence was always there with every porcelain cup and saucer cleared, washed and dried. And it all helped me pay for new tyres and wheel alignment :) The boyfriend thing will also resolve, my friends are giving me various advices which 'I' also now know not to take too seriously/follow as the right step will reveal itself.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,


Wow. With all those cream teas to wash up I can see why you took a few days to reply! No worries.

Thanks for your detailed reply. These three questions you have answered plus another three tend to come up at this stage in the inquiry.

You have given some great examples here. You are right to answer from looking at immediate sensations and thoughts.

Here are the other three questions. Have a go at answering them:

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything to add?

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? I don’t think there was a particular event that made me look into my experience. A friend of mine told be about this site and there was a spontaneous decision to embark on this enquiry. Or perhaps there was this urge inside me that there is another way to live my life, freer from clinging to the thoughts and conditioning. I still feel this urge or ‘desire’ but when I look at it, the feeling is less intense. It’s like the yearning is there but I am no longer as desperate to find the ‘magic key’ to my true nature. There is a recognition that that there is no key, the door is constantly open or the door is never there in the first place..

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

From the empirical experience, there is no entity ‘making stuff happen’. ‘I’ can not control the external world i.e. I had a plan to do a masters after my bachelors but last minute it all fell through and I ended up in a different city doing a job I did not predict I’ll do. Also the choices and decisions made are pretty inconsistent and it is never known for example what ‘I’ will order at the restaurant. Even if I have something in mind to order, when waiter comes over, I might change ‘my’ mind i.e a thought will flood in which will favour another dish, and something different will be ordered. There are habitual choices I make, things I like more than the others , and more likely to sway towards on daily basis. However, that may be subject to change- I used to be obsessed by colour blue and wear just blue clothes, and now that obsession has dissipated. Some things ‘I’ have loved all my life like dancing, whenever I hear a good beat I just want to jump up and dance and that is also not within my ‘control’, that ‘love’ has been always there.

Anything to add?

The question comes up about commitment & trust- is how can we commit to say marry some one, what if we wake up one morning and the answer to the question ‘do I want to be with that person?’ is a ‘no’? Does it mean that trust does not exist?

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Aspera,

Thanks for your answers.

. The question comes up about commitment & trust- is how can we commit to say marry some one, what if we wake up one morning and the answer to the question ‘do I want to be with that person?’ is a ‘no’? Does it mean that trust does not exist?

If the answer is 'no' I'd say that it needs exploring at least

Has there really ever been safety and certainty in such matters? This does not prevent a 'best guess', Nor does it prevent the use of intelligence.

As you said earlier on, your preference for blue was sustained but eventually ran its course. And how could it have been known that this would happen? Possibly the passion for blue might instead have lasted. How could it be known which way things would go?

It might even have happened that the appetite for blue clothes waned but some need for blue clothes to match each other meant that they kept being bought, even when other colours seemed attractive. In that case it might seem that a 'self decides' to stick with blue clothes. But even here, is there really a self that is controlling events or are events unfolding spontaneously? There is a story of 'my commitment' or 'our commitment' but where are the 'selves' that control events?

What do you think about what I have said here?

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Has there really ever been safety and certainty in such matters?

It means that having committed relationships/marriage implies acceptance that your partner might walk away at any given moment. And the vows you give to each other are only true only the minute when they are being said. It feels opposite to what our human nature wants- stable family/partner who is willing to work through ups and downs of relationships. I sort of rationally understand that it would be irrational to expect to have certainty in these matters, but this one just seems a bit difficult to accept, as that 'need' feels deeper that the thoughts; maybe to do with our physiology.

As you said earlier on, your preference for blue was sustained but eventually ran its course. And how could it have been known that this would happen? Possibly the passion for blue might instead have lasted. How could it be known which way things would go?

Yes, I agree that it may not always be possible to predict the course of events/preferences. But there are quite a few studies in human behaviour/psychology and quite a lot of the times our behavior is predictable and this is how the marketing/advertising works- most people will notice items in the middle of the shelf (eye-level) if they are buying something and that is a premium slot on the isles. I know its not the rule of thumb and there are exceptions, but a lot of what we do can be predicted/anticipated. Like it could probably be predicted that one day i will get bored of blue as I have a personality that prefers versatility.

But even here, is there really a self that is controlling events or are events unfolding spontaneously? There is a story of 'my commitment' or 'our commitment' but where are the 'selves' that control events?

I also see here that events are unfolding spontaneously but at the same time it can be predicted that i will tend to buy blue items for a bit longer as i know how to match it to the rest of my wardrobe. It can not be , however, accurately predicted for how long the tendency will last. If everything would unfold so spontaneously, then how crime mysteries would be solved? When investigator gets as many clues about the suspect and traces him down? I think i get the momentary spontaneity but in the grand scheme of things our behavour/choices can be pretty predictable.

What if one partner cheats on another, is there 'noone' to blame?



Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

It means that having committed relationships/marriage implies acceptance that your partner might walk away at any given moment. And the vows you give to each other are only true only the minute when they are being said. It feels opposite to what our human nature wants- stable family/partner who is willing to work through ups and downs of relationships. I sort of rationally understand that it would be irrational to expect to have certainty in these matters, but this one just seems a bit difficult to accept, as that 'need' feels deeper that the thoughts; maybe to do with our physiology.

...And yet so many things flow along quite uneventfully, apparently without input by a 'self'? For instance, a car journey right across town can happen almost without thinking or refelction on the actual driving and yet there are no crashes (usually :-). Many marriages work well. Many couples are faithful.

Yes, I agree that it may not always be possible to predict the course of events/preferences. But there are quite a few studies in human behaviour/psychology and quite a lot of the times our behavior is predictable and this is how the marketing/advertising works- most people will notice items in the middle of the shelf (eye-level) if they are buying something and that is a premium slot on the isles. I know its not the rule of thumb and there are exceptions, but a lot of what we do can be predicted/anticipated. Like it could probably be predicted that one day i will get bored of blue as I have a personality that prefers versatility.

Sure, predictions are happening all the time. Why not? Is it our experience that everything falls apart because there is no 'me' that actually controls events?

I also see here that events are unfolding spontaneously but at the same time it can be predicted that i will tend to buy blue items for a bit longer as i know how to match it to the rest of my wardrobe. It can not be , however, accurately predicted for how long the tendency will last. If everything would unfold so spontaneously, then how crime mysteries would be solved? When investigator gets as many clues about the suspect and traces him down? I think i get the momentary spontaneity but in the grand scheme of things our behavour/choices can be pretty predictable.

You make an important point by saying 'at the same time'. You are highlighting two perspectives that are paradoxical but not contradictory, one absolute, in that each instant is found to be spontaneous and yet many predictions such as those about blue clothing seem to work well within a dulaistic view.


love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi again Agata,

I just wanted to add something else to what we were talking about.

You have said that there is no control and in reality I don't find a controller either. But perhaps being asked to confirm that there is no control may seem nihilistic?

I feel a better question is to ask you to look at experience to see if there is an imagined control?

In experience, would you say that there is imagined control?

Do you find that this puts a slightly different complexion on the issue of 'no control'?

love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I'm wondering if you may be perplexed with this inquiry? I hope that you feel free to let me know if anything I have said or that we have discussed either seems wrong to you or else causes anxiety?

You have been doing really well from the start and that you found you could relax a coule of pages ago was very good. Ler me know if any sort of issue is preventing you from posting?

Kind wishes,

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

I'm wondering if you may be perplexed with this inquiry? I hope that you feel free to let me know if anything I have said or that we have discussed either seems wrong to you or else causes anxiety?

I am just a little confused how to answer your the question about control and thus have been procrastinating to respond. I can see that things continue to flow and the world doesn't fall apart when we discover that there is 'no me that controls' . I'm just unsure what imagined control means. For instance, I sort of can assure that I am in control of my actions i.e. i will not suddenly jump out in front of the car or shout a lot of abuse to my neighbors or dye my hair purple. But in reality even though I am quite sure of the above, i.e. i am in control i won't do the things stated above, there is still a possibility of them happening for some random reason like I will decide to model for a hairdresser saloon and they will dye my hair. So we seem to have control over our behavior but at the same time we don't as we may behave differently at one instance.

At this point in time I am facing with a lot of avoidance of self-inquiry. Yesterday as i was about to reply to your post, I fell asleep at 8pm, which is quite unusual for me. I am also quite tearful for a past few days, the 'stuff' I am hitting at the moment is the wanting to be accepted/feeling of not being accepted. This is the reason why I think I started to see my ex again,as I don't feel happy and accepted at work and in my family, and there is want to be accepted by someone so i am running to my ex, because I am not accepting myself in the first place. I just don't find my mind interesting and just in general i feel there is so much judgment fear and anxiety in me that it is sometimes overwhelming.

And i think those feeling are sometimes stronger because I have felt glimpses of peace and freedom and there is a craving to have more of that and less anxiety. I am just finding it difficult to feel at peace with most of my daily experience. There is just this relentless judger that I don't seem to notice and identify with those thoughts constantly. I just somehow want things to be different than what they really are i.e. live in a different country, live in a different house, have a different job and even be a different person, but i know deep down that this will not solve anything. I just sort of not sure where to put my focus any more, where to start so I am happier with my life. Its just at this moment i have this life which from dualistic point of view I would like to change a lot externally, but from this perspective of no self i should be able to be with it all as it is and i am struggling to.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Dear Agata

Thank you so much for posting such an honest and full reply. I would like to respond tomorrow. For the last couple of days I have been busy with a short family camping holiday. I'll concentrate better tomorrow.

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Hope you are having a lovely camping holiday! Not a problem, will hear from you when you are back

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata

Well, today's is a long post. Here goes....

I am just a little confused how to answer your the question about control and thus have been procrastinating to respond. I can see that things continue to flow and the world doesn't fall apart when we discover that there is 'no me that controls' . I'm just unsure what imagined control means.

...Well, perhaps we could say that 'self' is imagined? Somehow it is frequently imagined that there is a self. It is seen that the imagined person is not a real, unchanging entity.

It can be seen that there is no real control, but control is nevertheless imagined. ... Does this ring true ?

For instance, I sort of can assume that I am in control of my actions i.e. i will not suddenly jump out in front of the car or shout a lot of abuse to my neighbors or dye my hair purple. But in reality even though I am quite sure of the above, i.e. i am in control i won't do the things stated above, there is still a possibility of them happening for some random reason like I will decide to model for a hairdresser saloon and they will dye my hair. So we seem to have control over our behavior but at the same time we don't as we may behave differently at one instance

Perhaps behaviour just happens the way it does and there are thoughts about it being 'my behaviour'? Could it be that when you do not suddenly jump out in front of a car there is no control being done by a you not to jump?

If I get up to make a cup of tea it can be imagined that 'I control' this. You may like to explore this right now? You come back with the hot drink and sit down again. But was there 'controlling the body to walk in a coordinated way,' or did walking simply happen? Is there Any part of the process where a controller controlling it all is found,...other than an idea of one. And yet tea making happens very smoothly, quite predictably. So what's going on?

At this point in time I am facing with a lot of avoidance of self-inquiry. Yesterday as i was about to reply to your post, I fell asleep at 8pm, which is quite unusual for me. I am also quite tearful for a past few days, the 'stuff' I am hitting at the moment is the wanting to be accepted/feeling of not being accepted. This is the reason why I think I started to see my ex again,as I don't feel happy and accepted at work and in my family, and there is want to be accepted by someone so i am running to my ex, because I am not accepting myself in the first place.

It is good to notice this scenario happening. Don't worry about the avoidance of self-inquiry. It can happen. Usually there is some anxiety or fear behind this. And that can immediately precede some insight.

I just don't find my mind interesting and just in general i feel there is so much judgment fear and anxiety in me that it is sometimes overwhelming. 

This may sound weird but take a look right here and now to see if 'mind' can be found in experience?

And i think those feeling are sometimes stronger because I have felt glimpses of peace and freedom and there is a craving to have more of that and less anxiety.

Investigating 'self' is one of several different investigations that can helpfully be done. For some looking into 'self' is enough but plenty of people find the interest to explore other things. That's why LU has a number of forums and Facebook groups that can be useful.

I am just finding it difficult to feel at peace with most of my daily experience. There is just this relentless judger that I don't seem to notice and identify with those thoughts constantly. I just somehow want things to be different than what they really are i.e. live in a different country, live in a different house, have a different job and even be a different person, but i know deep down that this will not solve anything. I just sort of not sure where to put my focus any more, where to start so I am happier with my life. Its just at this moment i have this life which from dualistic point of view I would like to change a lot externally, but from this perspective of no self i should be able to be with it all as it is and i am struggling to.

Forget 'should'.

Your 'relative' life is real enough and may need changes. If my hand is in the fire I will pull it out fast, self or no self.

But to address most of what you say here about wanting lots of things to be different. Hard as it may sound, try what you did with the physical pain, of looking directly at it. Don't resist this stuff. See what happens.

Love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

Thank you for your in depth and really helpfulbresponse. I am doing my full on dish was washing weekend this week; hope its okay to respond to you tomorrow evening or Monday once ive had a chance to reflect.

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Sure, there is no pressure at all. Please reply when you have the time and space to do so.

love

Jon