the house of me

[blackh]

Hi Vikas,

Is there the thought, and something else observing the thought?

this is the key,i think ...
there is definitely an awareness of the thought.
and i i struggle to answer your real question.

Yes, not the easiest, but looking to find the answer to this is worth doing.

It might be easier to start with sight. You can also do this with any of the senses.

I think I already got you to do this, but here it is again: Take a look at something. Now focus on whatever is seeing/observing/aware. Can something be found there, or is there only seeing?

Now, with sight there is a sense of physical space that changes if you close or cover one eye. This is produced by the mind. I'm not talking about this. Similarly, aspects of the body are in the scene - the nose, for example. So, take all of this to be the content of the seeing.

Can a seer be found that is distinct from the seeing?

The awarenes that sees thoughts is the same awareness that sees sight. It's just attention functioning differently. What can be found there?


Steve

[shivite]

when the mind stopped applying labels, for a few moments, i couldn't tell the difference between the tip of my nose and the tree in front of me

sounds crazy.

[shivite]

awareness of sight and awareness of thoughts is on auto-pilot until awareness is woken up to pay more attention.

[blackh]

Vikas,

It sounds perfectly reasonable to me that your nose would turn into a tree.

awareness of sight and awareness of thoughts is on auto-pilot until awareness is woken up to pay more attention.

Nice looking.

We've covered a lot of ground recently. I hope I haven't been making you work too hard. I don't want to push the recent questions too much, because you're doing so well. You don't need much of that now. Soon we'll shift into a different phase. But before we do...

Perhaps we need to breathe out... Hhhhah... That felt good.

How do you feel generally? Is there anything you're not sure about?


Steve

[shivite]

thanks Steve. I feel good, overall. I look forward to your responses. I am enjoying the journey/process. this is an absolutely new experience, so i have no measuring stick, but there is a feeling that i should get things faster.

I still haven't answered the key question from today.

tomorrow, i will read thru the entire transcript and see if anything jumps out that I am not sure about.

good night.

[blackh]

Vikas,

You're doing fine. I don't think you need to get things faster. I won't say any more until you get back to me. See you tomorrow!


Steve

[shivite]

hi Steve

Tracing through the transcript was a useful exercise. It felt like we had been at this for a long while, but it has only been 12+ days. it was good to break for a day.

You asked whether there was anything I was unsure about. I definitely don’t "feel" that feeling, like you had described, ‘in my bones’. A paradigm shift hasn’t happened. So I traced thru our conversation and am poking at everything that has even the smallest doubt; it is quite possible my intellect accepted something without actually looking. i apologize for rehashing this stuff.

1) Personality
So I traced through our conversation and the only place where there might be an identification with the self is ‘personality’. Intellectually, I can easily disassociate myself from the personality as I had answered previously. Personality is a ‘pattern of reactions’ that I have no control over. in fact, I have experienced that. But maybe, there is a deep rooted belief that 'I am my personality' and that is preventing me from feeling this in the bones.

Previously you had asked:

Do you identify with the personality? If so, what is the actual experience of identification?

There still is no strong identification with the personality; however, it seems useful to say this … ‘but, the world sees me as my personality’. The actual ‘experience of the identification’ is only in the mind/thoughts. Two thoughts bouncing around. “you are not your personality. How could you be. It just came with the package and you had not control over it and nor do you control its actions now”. And another thought, “but, still you are that package”. (previously, I had used the word - dissonance).

2) Is there a you that has free will 0.1% of the time? Does it have control over attention?

The way I would answer this now is that “there is an awareness all the time. This awareness can shift attention”


one more comment now.
- I tried to experience awareness. It seems to sit in the background. It seems subservient to thoughts. But once in a while, somehow, awareness directs the attention to something. In those moments, the experience is more vivid; senses are more alive.

Now, the main questions you had asked.

Is there the thought, and something else observing the thought?
Take a look at something. Now focus on whatever is seeing/observing/aware. Can something be found there, or is there only seeing?
Can a seer be found that is distinct from the seeing?

All I can say is that there is an awareness of the thought or the object that is being seen. My belief is that this awareness lives in me but I can’t point to a physical location.

The awareness that sees thoughts is the same awareness that sees sight. It's just attention functioning differently. What can be found there?

Awareness always exists. Objects appear in and out of awareness.

[blackh]

Vikas,

You asked whether there was anything I was unsure about. I definitely don’t "feel" that feeling, like you had described, ‘in my bones’. A paradigm shift hasn’t happened yet. So I traced thru our conversation and am poking at everything that has even the smallest doubt; it is quite possible my intellect accepted something without actually looking.

That's a good thing to do. The intellect is good at inventing stuff that isn't really there, so you have to examine everything carefully.

The paradigm shift will happen when it's ready to, and to get there, you will need to look and keep looking so you know what is really there. Especially, make a habit of looking for the self everywhere in daily experience whenever you can.

I'll also help make sure you've seen what you need to see.

And another thought, “but, still you are that package”.

Can you locate an actual thing called the personality? Or are there are thoughts and actions arising largely unpredictably, forming a pattern that we refer to as "the personality".

What does it mean to be something?

All I can say is that there is an awareness of the thought or the object that is being seen.

Quite so. Awareness is self-evident, but we tend to project all sorts of ideas onto it. You have done a great job here in just seeing what's actually there. Or, to be more specific, ...you haven't seen what's NOT there.

It seems subservient to thoughts. But once in a while, somehow, awareness directs the attention to something.

Can you actually see awareness directing attention? If not, how do you know it does it?

In what way is awareness subservient to thoughts?

----

Have a read through this and contemplate. Hopefully this will help solidify some of the things I've been saying and underscore the fact that we're talking about something very very simple, though it is very different to our usual way of viewing things.

A few years back there was a chap called Siddhartha Gautama, and he seemed to know what he was talking about. This is a Buddhist sutta (sutra) called the Bahiya Sutta. Someone called Bahiya comes to the Buddha (Mr. Gautama), and this is what he says to him:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

A little bit of commentary to link it up with what I've been saying:

• There is no thing here - there is no subject of awareness
• There is no thing there - there are no objects
• the world of this - the subject
• the world of that - objects
• you are therefore locate neither in... - there is no "you" anywhere to be found

Steve

[shivite]

Based on our last conversation, during the one day break, I started poking at beliefs. Previously I was working at the intellect, thought or experiential level --- but had not consciously delved into beliefs.

Can you locate an actual thing called the personality?

I think I have created a belief that my personality was constructed, given to me – part of it was inherited. Intellectually, the only logical answer is that ‘it is encoded in my DNA’. Intellectually, I understand that I can’t see my DNA thru my usual senses.

Or are there are thoughts and actions arising largely unpredictably, forming a pattern that we refer to as "the personality".

I have seen that thoughts and actions are arising without my control. And that the collection of the two is a pattern called personality.

But there is a belief that there must be a reason for my personality. If I take this belief further, then a higher order belief is that things are not ‘random’. That ‘I am not random’. That there is a connection/causation. It might help to explain that I grew up on heavy dose of ‘karma’ (it was in the air ). As an adult, as I have pondered life’s questions, karma seems to give answers to a lot of inexplicable/random events. This is _deep rooted_. I have no direct proof of karma; just correlation in the mind.

I am identifying with the non-randomness of my existence. Non-random is a comforting feeling.

What does it mean to be something?

I know the answer that I would have given 10 days back (construct of elements/molecules). I can’t seem to answer this question now.

Can you actually see awareness directing attention? If not, how do you know it does it?

Lets say some soulful music/singer is playing/signing. I am aware of the music in the background. At times I might just go on doing other things. At times, I focus the attention on the music and really listen – to every lyric, every beat, every feeling that comes up. those moments are full of joy/bliss. That I feel in the bones 

My experience is that ‘attention shifts’.
The next sentence is intellectual not experiential. Awareness ‘that which is aware’ of everything should be the one that can direct attention.

In what way is awareness subservient to thoughts?

It appears that thoughts are in the driver’s seat and awareness is in the back seat. Thoughts consume the mind and awareness does not come to forefront too often.

In the seen, there is only the seen, …

So, this seems to say that “there is only awareness”.
I tried to experience the world thru this belief. When I looked at a tree, I was aware of an image. When I heard a sound, I was aware of vibrations. When I touched something, I was aware of a sensation.

When I looked at myself, I was aware of sensations, thoughts.

taken a step further, "awareness" is aware of me but can't exist in me.

I don’t reject this belief, school of thought, point of view.

[blackh]

Vikas,

Previously I was working at the intellect, thought or experiential level --- but had not consciously delved into beliefs.

Yes, very important to question beliefs. Beliefs are made out of thought content, which means they are all fictional. This is helpful because instead of questioning them one by one, you can save time and question them all at once.

I think I have created a belief that my personality was constructed, given to me – part of it was inherited. Intellectually, the only logical answer is that ‘it is encoded in my DNA’. Intellectually, I understand that I can’t see my DNA thru my usual senses.

Working theories about what is happening in the world are useful and necessary. But are they the truth about the world?

But there is a belief that there must be a reason for my personality. If I take this belief further, then a higher order belief is that things are not ‘random’. That ‘I am not random’. That there is a connection/causation.

There appear to be layers of potentially discernible patterns at work. But is the world ultimately knowable? If only a part of it is knowable, is it possible to know how big the unknown part of it is?

As an adult, as I have pondered life’s questions, karma seems to give answers to a lot of inexplicable/random events. This is _deep rooted_. I have no direct proof of karma; just correlation in the mind.

I am identifying with the non-randomness of my existence. Non-random is a comforting feeling.

Some parts of the world are (apparently) comprehensible, and some are not comprehensible. Whatever theory we use to explain the parts we think we understand, we project onto the incomprehensible parts. Is there a practical difference between something random and something unknowable?

What does it mean to be something?

I know the answer that I would have given 10 days back (construct of elements/molecules). I can’t seem to answer this question now.

I have no clue what the answer to this question is. Maybe it has an answer, but it doesn't seem to have an obvious answer.

The next sentence is intellectual not experiential. Awareness ‘that which is aware’ of everything should be the one that can direct attention.

What might or might not be true doesn't matter. Is it true?

In the seen, there is only the seen, …

So, this seems to say that “there is only awareness”.
I tried to experience the world thru this belief. When I looked at a tree, I was aware of an image. When I heard a sound, I was aware of vibrations. When I touched something, I was aware of a sensation.

When I looked at myself, I was aware of sensations, thoughts.

taken a step further, "awareness" is aware of me but can't exist in me.

I don’t reject this belief, school of thought, point of view.

Can a subject of awareness be experienced?
Can an object be experienced independently of the perceiving of it? Certainly the physical world operates according to very consistent-looking rules. We know that much.

It certainly can't be proven that these things do not exist, just as it can't be proven that there isn't a teapot orbiting the Earth at this very moment (it is impossible to prove that something doesn't exist). But the question is, can it be proven that they exist? The perceiving of objects suggests that something exists, but what can be proven about it?

It appears that thoughts are in the driver’s seat and awareness is in the back seat. Thoughts consume the mind and awareness does not come to forefront too often.

What about awareness of thoughts?


Steve

[shivite]

hi steve

I’m poking at personality/other beliefs just to make sure that they are not getting in the way on the ‘goal’ of this process/conversation. The goal is to ‘feel it in my bones’ and ‘to experience something beyond theory’.

With that goal in mind, based on your experience, do you believe that my one belief
- Things are not random. That there is a connection/causation
(inherited personality, karma are just theories that support that belief).

is getting in the way?

Or, based on my latest reply, do you believe – inherited personality in the dna, karma, etc – are getting in the way of this process?

Is there a practical difference between something random and something unknowable?

No

Awareness ‘that which is aware’ of everything should be the one that can direct attention.

Part of the problem is vocabulary
- that awareness and attention seem to be used synonymously (at least in my vocabulary).
- To say ‘that which is aware’ implies the existence of ‘that’

Help me !

Can a subject of awareness be experienced?

No. this implies an infinite loop of awarenesses aware of itself.

Can an object be experienced independently of the perceiving of it?

No. it has to come into awareness to be experienced.

The perceiving of objects suggests that something exists, but what can be proven about it?

That _only_ 'perceiving' exists can be known for a fact.

What about awareness of thoughts?

was using attention and awareness synonymously here

[blackh]

Vikas,

With that goal in mind, based on your experience, do you believe that my one belief
- Things are not random. That there is a connection/causation
(inherited personality, karma are just theories that support that belief).

is getting in the way?

Or, based on my latest reply, do you believe – inherited personality in the dna, karma, etc – are getting in the way of this process?

Sorry to be so annoying. The answer is, I don't think they are going to be a problem. Some people who are a bit intellectual can sometimes filter everything through thought/project concepts onto what they're seeing, so I thought I should just make sure. Thank you for your patience.

Beliefs are only a problem if you think they're absolutely real and beyond question, and I don't think you do.

taken a step further, "awareness" is aware of me but can't exist in me.

Great. I see the vocabulary thing there, so everything's fine. Thanks again for that.

Let's move on. Now I just want to do a check to see where you're at and make sure we've completely dealt with this "I" thing.

Please go for a walk as long or short as you like, and while you're walking, look at the totality of experience including the body moving. Is there an I somewhere? Are you controlling the body? Or to put another way, is there a body walking, or are you walking?

Also
Does attention get stuck in thought and make you feel like "I"?
Do you control thoughts?
Do you own your body, your mind, your personality or your life?
Are you inside the body, and the world is outside?
When you look, are you the seer?
Is there any other way in which you feel like a self?


Steve

[shivite]

Sorry, Steve. my apologies. I brought up those two beliefs so that we could eliminate them.

Please go for a walk as long or short as you like, and while you're walking, look at the totality of experience including the body moving. Is there an I somewhere? Are you controlling the body? Or to put another way, is there a body walking, or are you walking?

Before I left the house, I had charted a course/path in my mind. During the walk, there was no apparent thought directing the body to walk. Body was walking on auto-pilot.
The walk itself was completely underwhelming. Most of the time, I kept asking - what does 'totality' mean? --- does totality mean to focus on everything or unfocus from everything. immersed in this thought, the sights/sounds just passed by me without getting any attention. I guess there was less labeling happening in the mind, as by product.

Does attention get stuck in thought and make you feel like "I"?

Attention definitely gets stuck in thought(s).
A lot of thoughts address the “I” … as in, “I will go to the park and I will take the route that is well lighted”
To answer your question. When I am absorbed in a thought(s), there is a nut to be cracked/puzzle to be solved, etc … and that validates the existence of an “I”. there is no obvious thought like “I exist”, just a feeling that “I am”.

Do you control thoughts?

No

Do you own your body, your mind, your personality or your life?

If ‘own’ means ‘do I take responsibility’ then the answer is yes. we live in a world where taking personal responsibility is a responsible act.

Are you inside the body, and the world is outside?

I feel i am inside the body.
the world is outside.

When you look, are you the seer?
I feel I am the seer.

[blackh]

Hi Vikas,

Thank you - great answers that give a good idea of what to look at next.

Most of the time, I kept asking - what does 'totality' mean?

I didn't spend a lot of time choosing that word. I just wanted you to look at all of experience all at once. That's fine - we confirmed that there wasn't a you controlling the body.

When I am absorbed in a thought(s), there is a nut to be cracked/puzzle to be solved, etc … and that validates the existence of an “I”. there is no obvious thought like “I exist”, just a feeling that “I am”.

Of course everyone gets lost in thoughts and this doesn't typically go away after the gate. But the important question is, do you believe this "I am" feeling, or is it just an empty claim? An analogy: If you were to put on a virtual reality helmet and you saw a monster, you would fight it secure in the knowledge that it's not real so it can't hurt you. Is it like this with the "I am" feeling that arises when you are absorbed in thought?

If ‘own’ means ‘do I take responsibility’ then the answer is yes. we live in a world where taking personal responsibility is a responsible act.

So let's say you have taken responsibility for doing something. What owns the responsibility and how do you control the body to make it do what it should?

I feel i am inside the body.
the world is outside.

Which part of the body are you located in? Is there a sensation of yourself there? Where in experience is the boundary between the inside where you are, and the outside where the world is?

When you look, are you the seer?
I feel I am the seer.

Didn't you tell me you looked at the seer and didn't find anything? Does this mean that you are invisible? Are you hidden behind the seer? Do you exert some influence from there?

Some non-duality people do say that "you are awareness". We are not so keen on that at LU, so that's why I'm asking you to justify it.


Steve

[shivite]

Hi Steve

I can see that sometimes my intent does not translate precisely into written words (vocabulary again). So to be sure I am going to use the following words when I mean to convey a particular meaning.
verified … this will mean that I have experienced it.
Believe … I think it is so
Feel … don’t have any proof, but the feeling exists

But the important question is, do you believe this "I am" feeling, or is it just an empty claim?

When I am really, really engaged, for example: thinking to solve a problem or immersed in music, etc … in those moments there is an ‘aliveness’. In those moments, I don’t say to myself “oh, look at the sound which this body is aware of as vibrations”; instead the thought is something like “OMG! This music makes me feel good.” I ‘feel’ that the sense of “I” is strong in these moments. This also applies to when I might be extremely worried or in a lot of pain.

I have verified that the traditional “I” can’t be found. I ‘believe’ it is just an empty claim.
But the belief isn’t yet pervasive in every moment of my life (hope that makes sense); the “I am” feeling is strong in moments of extreme pleasure/pain/etc.

So let's say you have taken responsibility for doing something. What owns the responsibility and how do you control the body to make it do what it should?

I have verified that I have no control over thoughts.
When someone asks me to be responsible for something, and if I agree, then I have ‘verified’ that I end up doing my best to make it happen. What is the proof? My effort to make it happen is proof.

If I am supposed to make dinner tonight, then dinner will be ready. (there is a thought – “do this, don’t procrastinate, live up to your word”).

Which part of the body are you located in?

I have verified that there is no part of the body where I have found I.

Is there a sensation of yourself there?

I ‘feel’ I am inside the body

Where in experience is the boundary between the inside where you are, and the outside where the world is?

I don’t know where I am in the body. Visually I am aware of where my body ends and where the world outside of the body is.

Didn't you tell me you looked at the seer and didn't find anything? Does this mean that you are invisible? Are you hidden behind the seer? Do you exert some influence from there?

Previously you had asked: Can a seer be found that is distinct from the seeing?
And I had answered: All I can say is that there is an awareness of the thought or the object that is being seen. My belief is that this awareness lives in me but I can’t point to a physical location.

Here is another way to describe my experience. When I ignore the “I am the seer” thought, then the only truth that remains is that there is an awareness of seeing. Nothing else is truly true. And still, there is a feeling that awareness has to have a house. I ‘feel’ that I am the most obvious choice.