Need help seeing the truth.

[Freddi]

Fred: Are 'you', is the self the origin of that thought?
Heketi: Yes, this is how it feels.

Look at thoughts, in direct experience. Don't get involved in their content, just watch them fly by, like birds.
Try and find where they come from, and where they go. Can you SEE their source? Is it 'you'? Is it a 'self'?
Can you direct thoughts, order them about? Can you stop them from happening?

Do I have any doubt if the self ever existed? No, I don't. It has always been an assumed thought; a thought strongly identified with. How can this be seen more clearly? It feels like the answer given is still intellectual, but not as much as when we started.

You're expecting to see something other than THIS. This is more simple than 'you' can imagine or think. It is just THIS, as it is, right here and now. There is nothing else to see. Any idea of a 'clearer' THIS is another expectation, another fantasy.

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

Look at thoughts, in direct experience. Don't get involved in their content, just watch them fly by, like birds.

This is good. When I look at the thoughts, they start to subside after being looked at and not engaged in. I am going to look at this more over the next day or so.

Try and find where they come from, and where they go. Can you SEE their source? Is it 'you'? Is it a 'self'?

Thoughts don't really come from anywhere. They come from nowhere, and go nowhere. The self is not the source of the thoughts.

Can you direct thoughts, order them about? Can you stop them from happening?

No. Like seeing/hearing/etc, those cannot be stopped by a self -- they just happen. This too applies to thoughts.


Thank you.

[Freddi]

Thoughts don't really come from anywhere. They come from nowhere, and go nowhere. The self is not the source of the thoughts

Exactly! And where is that self that would be the source of thoughts?
So what do you make of your statement 'it feels like the self is the origin of thoughts', now?

Keep observing the dance of thoughts, how they seem to pop up and pop 'out'. Can you even find a beginning or an end to them? Is it 'many' thoughts or is it one continuous, ever-changing commentary?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

Sorry for the delay here.

And where is that self that would be the source of thoughts? 

The self too, is nowhere to be found.

So what do you make of your statement 'it feels like the self is the origin of thoughts', now?

Well, the statement isn't accurate. But if reversed, it makes more sense: 'the thoughts is the origin of the self,' or rather, engaging in the contents of the thoughts is what enforces the idea/illusion of it.

Keep observing the dance of thoughts, how they seem to pop up and pop 'out'. Can you even find a beginning or an end to them?

I cannot find a beginning or an end to them -- they just happen.

Is it 'many' thoughts or is it one continuous, ever-changing commentary?]

It is like a commentary -- a narrative if you would. The experience gets labeled by the mind. Then there are thoughts about the labels that happen. Not engaging in the contents of those thoughts seems to be rather hard at first, but it is gradually becoming easier and easier.




Thanks!

[Freddi]

Thank you for these clear answers :-)

Is there a self, a separate I, is it anywhere to be found?

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

Is there a self, a separate I, is it anywhere to be found?

No, there isn't. It is just a thought pointer that points to nothing real; just imaginary. It cannot be found outside of thought.


Thanks.

[Freddi]

Thank you!

So what is the illusion of the separate self, how does it function? Imagine I have never heard about it but I'm very interested to know!

Fred

[Heketi]

So what is the illusion of the separate self, how does it function?

The illusion of the separate self is the idea or thought that there is someone in control and that there is a perceiver of the senses (thinking too being a sense). However, I do not know it's function. When looking for an answer, nothing comes up. Does it really have one? When looking, what is looking exactly? When is it is seen or realized, what sees it or what realizes it?

At times, when carrying on daily tasks (such as ironing), there's a feeling of watching that experience as if it where through a movie screen. The feeling only lasts for a few seconds. It almost feels like being pulled into two different ways: 1) I am a part of this movie. 2) There is just the movie and nothing else.

This is like the feeling of when one wakes up but is too tired to wake up and they just close their eyes to fall back asleep in just a second if even that. When any attention or focus is put into that feeling, it quickly goes away. If I just become "aware" of the feeling, no matter how subtle that awareness might be, it quickly too goes away.


Thanks.

[Freddi]

The illusion of the separate self is the idea or thought that there is someone in control and that there is a perceiver of the senses (thinking too being a sense). However, I do not know it's function. When looking for an answer, nothing comes up. Does it really have one? When looking, what is looking exactly? When is it is seen or realized, what sees it or what realizes it?

Thanks :-) What is looking, what sees or realises, indeed... Was there a particular point when THIS was seen?

How does it feel to see this? Is there any difference since the beginning of this dialogue?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hey Fred,

Sorry for the delay here. I had an emergency situation and was put in a spot where I was out of pocket thus could not post daily as we previously agreed.

What is looking, what sees or realizes, indeed... Was there a particular point when THIS was seen?

I am not so sure this has yet to be seen. I believe it, I know it to be true, but I am not so sure I have clearly seen this 100%.

How does it feel to see this? Is there any difference since the beginning of this dialogue?

There is a difference since the beginning of this dialogue. Words/labels were seen for what they are. The stream of thoughts by the mind are now seen more clearly than ever as well. There are times where I get lost in the stream but that is happening fewer and fewer times than ever before.


Thank you.

[Freddi]

I am not so sure this has yet to be seen. I believe it, I know it to be true, but I am not so sure I have clearly seen this 100%.

Do you know what it would be like to see this 100%? Or is it some assumption from what you've read?

You said ...

The self is just a thought pointer that points to nothing real; just imaginary. It cannot be found outside of thought

Was this answer coming from thought or experience? If it was from thought, that's not what I was after. Can you revisit and respond from your actual, direct experience?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Do you know what it would be like to see this 100%? Or is it some assumption from what you've read?

An assumption that I would be able to know for sure, without any doubt, that it has been seen.

Was this answer coming from thought or experience? If it was from thought, that's not what I was after. Can you revisit and respond from your actual, direct experience? 

Well, I look but I can't find a separate self at all. I feel like I am stuck and perhaps won't be able to see this. :(

[Freddi]

An assumption that I would be able to know for sure, without any doubt, that it has been seen.

Can you know for sure that Santa does not exist?
Can you know for sure that a unicorn does not exist?
What can you know for sure?

Well, I look but I can't find a separate self at all. I feel like I am stuck and perhaps won't be able to see this. :(

Stop, breathe, and LOOK again. What do you see that could get stuck?

[Heketi]

Can you know for sure that Santa does not exist?
Can you know for sure that a unicorn does not exist? 
What can you know for sure?

Santa doesn't exist. Can I know for sure? Not really. I can only verify that it doesn't exist in the immediate experience.

Stop, breathe, and LOOK again. What do you see that could get stuck?

No "self" is seen in the direct experience that could guess stuck. I guess deep down there is the thought that there is something more to see than just that since nothing has yet to "click." The expectation of an "aha" moment is what I seem to be expecting.

[Freddi]

No "self" is seen in the direct experience that could guess stuck. I guess deep down there is the thought that there is something more to see than just that since nothing has yet to "click." The expectation of an "aha" moment is what I seem to be expecting.

But no such expectation in the case of Santa? How so? You have not found a Santa or a unicorn in direct experience, yet you are not looking for a 'click' there. Where does this idea of an 'aha' moment come from? LOOK!