The Gate

Hi Hursh

THanks for those responses

Just on what you wrote in response to the 5th Question:

But it still feels in experience like those thoughts affect action

You say that it feels in experience like those thoughts affect action, but where is that experience of thought affecting action? Where can you find in experience, thought doing anymore than making claims and commentaries (T) eg "I affected that action"? Is this anything more than another assumption (T)?

You could test it out like this: raise one hand before your face and wiggle the fingers about.
Now consider: what was it (in E) that chose which hand? What was it (in E) which decided which order to wiggle the fingers in? What was it (in E) which decided in which direction to move each finger? Thinking may claim control of some or all of that, but can thoughts really do more than comment on those action eg "I controlled that". "I decided that"?

Let me know what comes up in actual firsthand experience.

Cheers

Mark

Ok you're totally right. Had a pretty big shift in last day or two realizing that it's ALL arisings. The thought that I shouldn't believe thoughts is an arising. The spoon being picked up sensation is an arising. The thought that thoughts connect to actions is an arising. It's all arisings. Some part was left before that still believed there were non-arisings in experience.

Yes, of course, it's just one arising after another. Even the thought that a thought causes some sensation or experience is its own arising thought.

Hursh

HI Hursh

Great, thanks for that response.

When you say 'it's all arisings', that sounds a bit like non-dual jargon from someone or other. Could you try to pin down as best you can in your own words exactly what that means to you when you say that.

Did you actually wiggle your fingers, and if so what are your firsthand-experience answers to my questions about that:

...raise one hand before your face and wiggle the fingers about.
Now consider: what was it (in E) that chose which hand? What was it (in E) which decided which order to wiggle the fingers in? What was it (in E) which decided in which direction to move each finger? Thinking may claim control of some or all of that, but can thoughts really do more than comment on those action eg "I controlled that". "I decided that"?

Would just like to be really clear here.

Cheers

Mark

Hey Mark,

By "arisings" I simply meant thoughts or sensations. Non-dual jargon or not, I quite like the term since it doesn't differentiate between [T] and [E]. They are all events in experience. The difference is in content, much as I was previously fixating on the content of thoughts, but I was missing the point that experience is simply a succession of these events and nothing else. There is no codified me or identity, of course, but also nothing solid such as intention or decision. It's all events one after another.

Now consider: what was it (in E) that chose which hand? What was it (in E) which decided which order to wiggle the fingers in? What was it (in E) which decided in which direction to move each finger? Thinking may claim control of some or all of that, but can thoughts really do more than comment on those action eg "I controlled that". "I decided that"?

Of course the answer here is nothing. Well, maybe not nothing so much as the question doesn't make sense since there isn't a "what". There was a thought that came up at some point and went away which contained something to the effect of "let's wiggle some fingers!". Or not - maybe there was just finger wiggling happening. Either way, they were discrete events and no solid "what" (in experience) was deciding.

Much love,

Hursh

HI Hursh

Good to hear from you again.

To see where we're up to, might be interesting for you to answer the 5th question again from the summary questions:-

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for?

Don't forget to answer all parts - and from the actual firsthand experience of what feels real (rather than from any theory or teachings).

Cheers

Mark

Hey Mark,

Sure. I am not sure much has changed :( I do truly appreciate you re-asking and continuing to work with me on this! Thank you, again.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?

I still have real trouble understanding this. Yes, it still seems like thoughts decide, intend, and chose. No, when I wiggle my fingers there is no thought in experience that chooses to wiggle the fingers or how to wiggle. There isn't even a thought that decides to do the wiggling. There was the reading of your earlier post, then the seeing of the hand wiggling its fingers - no noticeable thought in the middle. But it still feels like thoughts "choose", for example, what I will eat for lunch today. Then I end up eating that thing for lunch. Thoughts do not decide/intend/choose on a micro-level (how am I going to move my right leg next?) but they seem to on a more macro level.

But why does it matter? Deciding/intending/choosing/controlling are still just thoughts. They are waves in a sea of thoughts that are all the same. They are not real (although it seems to me they can, occasionally, affect reality).

Do you make anything happen?

Hm there is no me, so not quite (unsure if that was your point or that is being pedantic). Still feels like thoughts make stuff in the real world happen though. Thoughts -cause-> body movement -cause-> stuff happening.

Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Don't forget to give some practical examples from your everyday experience (even if there is no real 'you'!)

An example:
- Me walking down the street to the train station
- [T] Oh no I forgot my sunglasses!
- [T] Hm should I go back or is it not worth it?
- [T] I don't have any morning meetings today. Okay, I'll go back
- [E] Body moving around and walking back home

The three thoughts there seemed to make the experience happen.

Also I think thoughts don't often cause things to happen. Often they happen by themselves (by some other part of the brain? some other mind? who knows). But "do thoughts make anything happen?" seems like a yes.

What are you responsible for?

"Responsible for" is just another thought. It exists only in thought and as such isn't a real thing. This one I'm confident about.

Thank you and much love,

Hursh

HI Hursh,

Great. This matter of 'whether thoughts decide anything' is a really fascinating investigation, and it's really something which can be pursued post gate for further looking, as can many issues which come up. But as it has come up let's pursue just a little, ok?

Yes, of course, traditionally, conventionally, it has been assumed that thoughts decide things. It SEEMS obvious that thoughts decide things, and yet in the wiggle-fingers experiment you cannot find a thought that is governing the wiggling.

As you either go back for your sunglasses or don't, and similar decisions, there SEEM to be thoughts deciding. You can identify thoughts which comment on 'go back because this' or 'don't go back because that', and it seems as though they have decided, but look really closely and see whether they have really done anymore than give a commentary or explain the impulses involved. Can they truly take the credit for the decision? or are they actually just there commenting upon it?

As another little experiment: observing carefully all that is happening, put a piece of paper and three pens/pencils of different colours on a table in front of you, and then having looked at them for a while choose one pen/pencil. Pick it up and draw a simple shape on the paper. Now, what chose which pen? Were there thoughts accompanying the choice? Did those thoughts comment on the choice or were they actually responsible for the choice? Did thoughts govern the shape drawn on the paper, or did they comment upon it? Was there any entity at all responsible for choice of pen, or shape drawn?

So my main question here would be: can you actually KNOW FOR CERTAIN that thoughts are deciding, or is that just a sort of assumption?

Cheers

Mark

HI Hursh,

As a PS to my last post, here is a video clip which you might find interesting. Whilst not intended to replace our own exploration into this question, the British scientist/mathematician explores the issue of free will and takes part in some experiments including one interesting one where it seems to indicate that decisions are taken up to 6 seconds before the conscious mind is even aware of them, let alone deciding them on its own! Just a little food for thought/consideration:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOiYfvm9S-Q

Cheers

Mark

PS hope this clip stays up long enough for you to catch it!