a step into the unknown

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

Nevertheless, there is still a lack of confidence that the self has been seen through.

OK Let's reverse roles here. You tell me where this self might be and we'll take a look together.

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

OK Let's reverse roles here. You tell me where this self might be and we'll take a look together.

That sounds interesting. Let’s see what comes up.

To look at this thing about ‘confidence’, if you ask me about Father Christmas, or the Christian view of God, I can say that it is not possible to be 100% sure, but there is a sense of settled confidence that they do not exist. The statement that they do not exist does not provoke any nervous feeling in the solar plexus, I can feel calm there, and a generally pleasant warm, slightly buzzy energy around my limbs and back. When I make the same statement around a ‘self’, or ‘owner/controller of the mind/body’, there is immediately a sense of nervous energy, focusing around the stomach/solar plexus. It is a bit like the sense of butterflies in the stomach, so perhaps could shift a bit and become ‘excitement’, although for now it is different in being more tense and draining, rather than energising. Also, in my limbs, head and back there is a sense of tension. Put together, it amounts to something like fear, a sense of threat.

Does this provide evidence of a self? No it doesn’t. But perhaps the fear indicates that the idea of ‘no self’ is threatening in some way.

So, is there anything else that could provide evidence of a self? There is a nagging doubt around the thoughts. They seem to orientate themselves so naturally around ‘me’ being a person, the implication is hard to ignore. Just sitting and paying attention to thoughts, there is a ‘thought’ that says “could a self be contained in a thought, or in a pattern of thoughts?”. ‘Self’ is clearly not a physical entity or detectable through the senses, but how can it be seen that thoughts do not add up to a self? The answer I have for that is to keep looking and wait for further clarity.

I would add to that, that when attention stays with choices, it can be seen that thoughts are not controlling them, these happen without any conscious or thought based input. When attention is more relaxed, not watching choices carefully, thoughts seem to gain more presence and the question in the paragraph above arises.

There is also an expectation that there will be some felt or experienced change if/when I see and accept that there is no self. This expectation is partly based on what others have said about this realisation. In a video of Ilona and Elena, although I think they try hard not to set expectations, they do talk about a sense of letting things go that happens quite naturally after the lack of self has been seen. The expectation may also be based on the idea that if seeing there to be no self is to be meaningful there will be some change in the way living is experienced. If it is believed that there is no self, yet this mind/body feels and acts the same way, what is the point of this change of belief? This leads me to suspect that the stage I am at is where I believe there is no self, on the balance of evidence that I can see, but I don’t SEE the truth in that.

Getting a bit speculative here. I will stop there, but perhaps it gives you a sense of what is going on for me.

So, to finish, I can’t find evidence that there is a self, but based on what I have seen so far, there is still room for doubt, and doubt is still present. I do feel that the intention to SEE that a self is not present is very strong, 10/10. Despite this, perhaps the brakes are still on somewhere that I can’t put my finger on right now.

So how does that look to you?

Bye for now,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

Wow that was some mind labyrinth :-)

I can’t find evidence that there is a self, but based on what I have seen so far, there is still room for doubt, and doubt is still present. I do feel that the intention to SEE that a self is not present is very strong, 10/10. Despite this, perhaps the brakes are still on somewhere that I can’t put my finger on right now.

Yep. You look, you can't find it, yet brakes are applied and you invoke some doubt.

What is so threatening about the idea of 'no-self' (whatever that is)? Go on, have a rant. ;-)
What is so fearful about letting go of some control that was never there in the first place?

Cheers,

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

So it seems I have not convinced you that a self does exist!? Never mind.

What is so threatening about the idea of 'no-self' (whatever that is)? Go on, have a rant. ;-)
What is so fearful about letting go of some control that was never there in the first place?

Here goes the rant: What is so fearful? The superficial answer is nothing, it is fine. Still, the brakes are on, so stay with it a bit longer. What would the brakes say if they could talk? The might say: I want to see where I am going, I want to see what I will stand on before I start letting go. I want to know who I am, I want to be. Letting go of ‘self’ clearly does not mean death, but it does mean being different – will that be OK? Can I come back to the old way of being if I don’t like it.

Also, I want to be a guru. I want to be sitting peacefully and be clearly AWESOME to anyone who sees or talks to me. So they all say, have you seen Trev, he is totally awesome these days. I hear he is enlightened now and you can really tell by the words of timeless wisdom that he speaks. And yet, at the same time, he is still a really regular guy who makes great jokes, and everyone wants to hang out with him.

Also, I am really tired of trying to get things right. Have had a lifetime of it. Is this one more thing to get right?

End of the rant.

That was the spontaneous splurge. Trying to voice the fears and doubts. I know it does not make logical sense, but maybe it says something about where I am.

Looking back on it a few things occur to me.

• - The ‘unknown’ scares me.
  - There are still expectations that seeing will make me into something special. Searching for some sort of status or popularity.

I think I will leave it there without trying to analyse it any further.

Bye for now,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

- There are still expectations that seeing will make me into something special. Searching for some sort of status or popularity.

Hahaha, fat chance. It's worse than that, there is no 'you' to be special or popular.

- The ‘unknown’ scares me.

What is known, in truth? What can you know with absolute certainty?

Cheers,

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Hahaha, fat chance. It's worse than that, there is no 'you' to be special or popular.

Yes, I sort of get that. The idea of that is also welcome in some way, relating to the last point in the rant: “I am really tired of trying to get things right. Have had a lifetime of it. Is this one more thing to get right?” It sort of undermines the need to ‘get it right’.

My experience from a few days ago left a strong impression that nothing was ever fixed, and that there was no clear distinction between this mind/body and the rest of the world. Also that all experience was one big swirling array of phenomena that took place in a ‘mind space’ rather than ‘out there’ with a me ‘in here’. There is still a sense of that experience, today there is more of a feeling of me and other, although there is no evidence of that in the experience of the moment. I can sort of see where this is going, but it just hasn’t clicked.

What is known, in truth? What can you know with absolute certainty?

Relaxing into that question… It is difficult to say that anything is known. My experience, at times, has been that it is more like a flow of experience. So it could be said that “this is what I experience”. Or “this is what I expect”, as in “the sun seems to rise each morning, and I expect it to rise again tomorrow”. Or cause and effect can be observed, as in “I kick the ball and it rolls”. But none of this seems that important, from this view it is more a case of it is as it is. There is experience, but there is no certainty that this is absolute fact. In the mode I am living in there is a sense of things flowing, but also a resistance to allowing that flow to be as it is.

That seems a bit garbled, but I will leave it as it is.

Bye for now,

Trev

[Freddi]

Good morning Trev

There is experience, but there is no certainty that this is absolute fact.

What would constitute evidence that this is absolute fact?
What is it that needs to know THIS with certainty?
Is it ok not to know it as a fact? Is it ok not to know anything as a fact?

In the mode I am living in there is a sense of things flowing, but also a resistance to allowing that flow to be as it is.

Don't think, LOOK.
Can you see/hear/touch/taste a 'you' that is living in this mode or that mode? If so, what is it like?
and ..
Does the flow change whether there is resistance or not?

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

What would constitute evidence that this is absolute fact?
What is it that needs to know THIS with certainty?
Is it ok not to know it as a fact? Is it ok not to know anything as a fact?

There is more to this mind/body than my attention. I understand that choices happen, even though the conscious mind does not control them. Looking happens in my experience. There is mental activity and emotion (most of the time) that seems to be reacting to defend a ‘self’. It seems that on some level there is the belief that a self exists.

So there is no evidence of a ‘self’, yet behaviour continues, at times, as if there is a self. I am not sure what is real, what to believe, or what I know. I feel uncomfortable and uncertain about the question.

Don't think, LOOK.
Can you see/hear/touch/taste a 'you' that is living in this mode or that mode? If so, what is it like?
and ..
Does the flow change whether there is resistance or not?

I can’t see/hear/touch/taste a ‘self’. I have feelings and see behaviour of my actions that seem to be defending a ‘person’, trying to boost the status of a ‘person’. I also, at times have experiences that suggest this belief is weakening.

Yesterday the thought of a person who I think of as quite a ‘cool’ person came to mind, and there was a sense of tension in my body at the thought. There was something happening in thoughts at the same time. A sense of struggling with the idea that he was ‘cool’ and ‘I’ am not. Then suddenly an image came to mind of ‘him’ and ‘me’ forming into discreet shapes, and something like pointers linking them up in a certain way, like a diagram. This image left a sense that this is what the thoughts are doing, artificially creating discrete entities with connections between them. Then there was a memory of the other mode, where things seem more interconnected and flowing. I had an image of this person, but up close and noticing the detail of his skin tone, his eyes, more a real thing, rather than a label, or a simple sphere. There was a sense that the tension and ‘me and them’ thoughts are artificial. For a while I was a bit spaced out, mind quite open and flowing. After an hour or so it settled down again into a more ‘normal’ mode.

I don’t want to hang on to this experience. It has gone now. It does seem interesting.

So, back to your question. The resistance, embodied in thoughts and feelings, seems to obscure the experience of flow.

Not sure if I am making much sense this evening. Maybe that’s a good thing. If I think my way into a corner, maybe the thinking will take a break.

Thanks,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

I feel uncomfortable and uncertain about the question

Good! Stay with the uncomfortable, the uncertain. That's where it's at. Dig deeper into it.

It seems that on some level there is the belief that a self exists

Look into the belief. Question it. Don't let that stone go unturned.
What is a belief, in direct experience? Is it a fair representation of reality? Is it based on facts or not?
What would be the difference between, say, I believe there is a God and I know there is a God, and I believe there is a self and I know there is a self?

So there is no evidence of a ‘self’, yet behaviour continues, at times, as if there is a self.

Notice you used the words 'as if'. What do these point to? A fact or an assumption?
Is it OK if the behaviour continues, at times, as if there is a self? Can it be accepted, surrendered to, wholeheartedly?

I am not sure what is real, what to believe, or what I know.

Back to this question: Is it ok not to know what is real, what to believe, what you know? Can the not knowing be embraced, once and for all?

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

Good! Stay with the uncomfortable, the uncertain. That's where it's at. Dig deeper into it.

This question seems to work together with your question on acting “as if” there is a self.

There are frequently moments where I have sensations of discomfort. These arise alongside many interactions. For example. I am with a group of people and there is discomfort. I stay with that and it seems to link with a thought around, ‘will I get some attention’ or will I get too much attention’ or if I speak, it might be ‘what did people think of me’, there may be feelings of pride if what I say seems to be well received, or discomfort (perhaps self-criticism of blame) if it is badly received. So attention has been with these patterns of feelings and thoughts. They probably go on all the time, but there is more attention on them today. I am staying with them, noticing how quite strong feeling can arise and fade in relation to these situations.

These feelings appear to be acting ‘as if’ there is a self. Something to protect, to take pride in or to be ashamed of. Staying with them they are seen a bit more clearly as a collection of thoughts and feelings and then there is the question – could a self exist in a thought or feeling? For now I am staying with those sensations and that question. It seems that the thoughts and feelings get a bit clearer as the patterns get better known. They are happening very often, sometimes subtle, sometime strong, so there is plenty to look at.

Look into the belief. Question it. Don't let that stone go unturned.
What is a belief, in direct experience? Is it a fair representation of reality? Is it based on facts or not?

The belief that there is a self seems to be based on, or fuelled by, the patterns of thoughts and feelings described above. It seems useful to stay with them so their nature can be seen more clearly. I don’t expect to find a ‘self’ in them, but perhaps the lack of self will become more obvious, so these thoughts and feelings have less power in them.

What would be the difference between, say, I believe there is a God and I know there is a God, and I believe there is a self and I know there is a self?

To know there is a God, there would be some evidence from senses. I know the sun rose this morning, because I see it. Or that it happens so consistently (like the sun rises) that it would seem silly to doubt it. To know there is a self, would require the identification of specific concrete thing (perhaps it does not need to be a physical thing) that fulfils the definition of a self. For me the best definition of 'self' would be an 'enduring entity that controls or owns the mind/body'. To believe there is a self means there is a feeling or an assumption that a self exists. It may not be based on evidence, it may be a long standing habit, or taking the word of someone else. For example, I believe the earth goes around the sun, although I can’t see that for myself.

Notice you used the words 'as if'. What do these point to? A fact or an assumption?
Is it OK if the behaviour continues, at times, as if there is a self? Can it be accepted, surrendered to, wholeheartedly?

I use the words ‘as if’ to express that I suspect the self does not exist, yet in some ways, there is an action in the mind/body that would be expected if the self did exist. It is OK if the behaviour exists 'as if' there is a self, but it needs to be 'seen through'. I am not sure what it would mean to surrender whole heartedly to this, if it is not seen more clearly to be the case (the the feelings and responses 'as if' there is a self are baseless habits.)

Back to this question: Is it ok not to know what is real, what to believe, what you know? Can the not knowing be embraced, once and for all?
It is OK not to know.

I am changing my position from the last post where I said things could not be known at all. If something is experienced clearly by the senses, it could be ‘known’ to be the case in that moment. Although as all things are changing, this may only be temporary. It is OK to embrace the fact that all things are changing, although there is some resistance to staying true to this embracing in the moment.

I seem to be still on the fence here. My inner experience is of feelings and thoughts churning around in an uncomfortable and confusing way. That is how it is for now, and it seems OK.

Looking at these answers it also seems to be making things quite complicated. Perhaps that is just due to trying to answer several questions at the same time. It doesn't seem very complicated to me, it just seems that I am not seeing clearly, and the pushing and pulling of feelings seem to be the basis of doubting and obscuring the act of seeing that there is no self.

Thanks for the questions.

Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

Reading your last post, I notice the same resistance as there has been since the beginning.
You have taken a look in your immediate experience, you haven’t seen a self, but you continue to “believe” there is one, and I feel that you're hanging on to some expectation of a life without self-referencing thoughts. That's a fantasy.
A belief is just a thought taken a bit too seriously, Trev. When you say there is a belief, you mean that you can’t quite let go of the thought ‘there is a self’, despite the lack of evidence. It’s ok. After all, you gave an 8 to the question “how ready are you to question all your assumptions”… maybe you’re not quite ready.

I asked you to show me where the self is, so we can look together, but so far you have not told me where to look, in actual experience. Instead you sit on the fence, as you say.

I invite you to re-read our conversation since the beginning, see the resistance at play, then tell me honestly:

1. Where does this ‘believed’ thought claim that the self is, right now?
2. Stop and take a LOOK. What are you looking for that isn’t already fully and perfectly present in this moment?
3. Spend some time going into this fear of the absence of self. Don’t avoid it with thought labyrinth, let yourself fall into it.
What is not OK about surrendering to this realisation that there is no ‘you’ at all, what is not OK about surrendering to this evidence that there is no control at all, that there never was any control?
Walk towards that fear, as in meditation. Give it all your attention and your love and let me know what comes up.

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

That sounds worthwhile. I will do a bit of reading tomorrow and get back to you after that.

Thanks,

Trev

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

I have looked through all the previous posts. I have also looked at the exercises section of the enlightening quotes app, which was useful.

I have noticed a few things today, which have been helpful. Staring out the window I noticed a sense of tension around my head, which seemed to be dulling or numbing my awareness of what I was looking at. As that relaxed, the sense of vision shifted from a sense of something ‘outside’, to the sense of a 3 dimensional visual image, which was no longer “out there”, but all around, and right through me. This is not the first time the visual experience has been like this, it was similar on the day when there was a sense of things really opening up and the back of my head relaxing and other times when there has been a more immersive experience of sensations. This time was a bit different as I also experienced the tension that numbed the experience, and seemed to change the experience to something being “out there”. I have been wondering if there is a similar tension that gives thoughts and feelings a sense of “out there-ness” and there does seem to be, so with more relaxation in the experience, the feeling seems less “out there” and more a part of experience, free to move and change. Relaxing into a sense of “immersive experience” (this does not quite capture it, but it is in that area) it also becomes clear that there is no “watcher”, there is no-one doing the “watching”. The experiencer and experienced object are the same thing.

So, it feels OK to say “there is no self”. At times, when I relax, there is a sense of calm and spaciousness. At other times, the old habits of envy, pride and fear still go on and at times all (or almost all) attention is on these thoughts and feelings and there is no experience of senses or sensations outside of these thoughts and feelings.
I won’t say anymore now, that is how it is today.

Thanks.

Trev

[Freddi]

Thanks Trev
Did you consider the three questions I was asking in my last post?
Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

I went through the whole lot, but then didn’t read the last one before I replied. So…

1. Where does this ‘believed’ thought claim that the self is, right now?

There does not seem to be a believed thought. Not sure if there was one before, it was more like feelings and a lack of clarity and the thought – “this can’t be the experience of ‘no self’". That sense has eased. There is more acceptance that I have looked and found no sign of anything more than thoughts, feelings and sense experience, none of which hold an “essence of Trev” in them, or even a bit of “essence of Trev”.

2. Stop and take a LOOK. What are you looking for that isn’t already fully and perfectly present in this moment?

Right now there is still some ‘wish’ for more peace of mind. There was an experience of openness to visual experience, where the sense of tension around it relaxes and there is a feeling something like viewer and object come together. It was like a layer of defensiveness dissolved. I have a sense that feelings and thoughts can be experienced more in this way, and have had small tastes of that today.

3. Spend some time going into this fear of the absence of self. Don’t avoid it with thought labyrinth, let yourself fall into it.

I think I have more fear around being stuck with a self – absence of self sounds appealing.
There is some fear around. Something more like “is it OK to be like this?” It is not an overwhelming fear, and it is possible to just relax with it for now. There seems to be the possibility of a more flowing experience of fears, feelings, thoughts. Of them arising and disappearing in a relaxed flow of experience. It is not like that right now, but there is a glimpse of it.

That is it for the questions – do you have any others?

Trev