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[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,
Sorry, I've left it a few days, I haven't had a minute to myself.
Touching the table:
First sensation is cold. Thought definately came after the brief sensation of touch but no story attached itself. It didn't 'feel' like a table, more a part of the body. That's not right either (hard to describe) it was just part of the whole experience. No separation. It definately wasn't 'my' table, couldn't be sure it was 'a' table, just part of the now. Wish I could find the right words. Just part of the 'now'picture. I couldn't examine the labelling and thoughts Sarah, if they were there this brain didn't acknowledge them. No line, no separation, no story. Wow.

Dangermouse wrote:
At the moment my visual field includes everything but my head

No true. Test that! Your back, neck etc.

It's true, there's lots more of this body that isn't seen in the field of vision, and it's thought
that puts the rest there. He he, if I can't see it, it's not there.

Dangermouse wrote:
It's what I show the world and what the world sees

What is this made up of? Pick it apart and have a dam good look at it! Splurge if needed!

I know, I know, this has been my conditioning through past experience and is just thoughts/feelings after more thoughts/feelings. The intellectual understanding is far away from 'seeing' though. This is a toughie as it seems this 'image' is who I think I am. There - I'm right back in 'me' again. I'm going to pick at this a lot more. I'm stuck. Which is another thought!

Dangermouse wrote:
just desperately need to ditch this attachment.

Is that thought wanting? Just recognise the identification is there - that's all. Recognise too that there is a thought there that wants rid.

Don't know why I couldn't just accept the identification with this body, it's like it's a 'bad' thing to have. Upon looking, it's all thoughts and feelings that have attached themselves. And yes, it's another thought that wants rid! Utter nonsense, thoughts wanting to be rid of thoughts?

Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie
You: Sorry, I've left it a few days, I haven't had a minute to myself.
Me: Quite understand!

You: No line, no separation, no story. Wow.
Me: ok. I want you to do the same touching exercise again but this time touching your arm, or hand or face. What do you notice. Try just touching and not moving to start off with.

You: It's true, there's lots more of this body that isn't seen in the field of vision, and it's thought that puts the rest there. He he, if I can't see it, it's not there.
Me: well that may be one thought replacing another. Can you say it is or it isn't there categorically? Or is it more like it just isn't experienced?
Also as you look at different parts of you body, can you ever split it from background or space around whatever bit you are looking at. In other words thought separates and labels, but is that separation experienced? Where is the gap between body and background?

You: I know, I know, this has been my conditioning through past experience and is just thoughts/feelings after more thoughts/feelings. The intellectual understanding is far away from 'seeing' though. This is a toughie as it seems this 'image' is who I think I am. There - I'm right back in 'me' again. I'm going to pick at this a lot more. I'm stuck. Which is another thought!
Me: what does intellectual understanding mean? Does it mean waiting for thoughts to get it or understand? If the thoughts weren't there would there be a problem at all?
And yes pick apart that image of me. Splurge on paper and then reread. Question every aspect of what you believe this image to be. Then come back with what you notice.

You: Don't know why I couldn't just accept the identification with this body, it's like it's a 'bad' thing to have. Upon looking, it's all thoughts and feelings that have attached themselves. And yes, it's another thought that wants rid! Utter nonsense, thoughts wanting to be rid of thoughts?
Me: well did you decide to identify on purpose in the first place? Did you decide to label stuff good or bad? Did you decide what thought to have before you had it?
Hugs Sarah xxxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

Been with the Grandchildren all weekend so this 'body' is a bit creaky!

I want you to do the same touching exercise again but this time touching your arm, or hand or face. What do you notice. Try just touching and not moving to start off with.

A sensation of touch but no line separating hand from face, it's all one. It was just an experience of touch. No notion of 'that's my face'

Me: well that may be one thought replacing another. Can you say it is or it isn't there categorically? Or is it more like it just isn't experienced?
Also as you look at different parts of you body, can you ever split it from background or space around whatever bit you are looking at. In other words thought separates and labels, but is that separation experienced? Where is the gap between body and background?

I can't categorically say whether the rest of the body is there or not. It is more accurate to say it is not being experienced.
There is no gap, there isn't a line around the body showing where it is, feels like it can only be seen as a 'contrast' to the background.

Me: what does intellectual understanding mean? Does it mean waiting for thoughts to get it or understand? If the thoughts weren't there would there be a problem at all?
And yes pick apart that image of me. Splurge on paper and then reread. Question every aspect of what you believe this image to be. Then come back with what you notice.

I've always deemed intellectual understanding to be the 'got it', finally understanding whatever the subject is. I think without an 'I' it's just thoughts re-arranging themselves and without them there wouldn't be a problem. Let 'em be! I'm still struggling with the image thing Sarah, need a bit more time with it. I look and see 'a body' it's not 'mine' just a body. Nobody controls it, it just is. Then after a few hours I'm right back 'in' it again.

Me: well did you decide to identify on purpose in the first place? Did you decide to label stuff good or bad? Did you decide what thought to have before you had it?

All is conditioning Sarah from a very young age, I wouldn't have 'chosen' any of it. Being given to understand 'this is who you are'. So no, I didn't decide to identify in the first place or label stuff good or bad. If I'd decided what thought to have before I had it, then that would have been a thought anyway, so no, thoughts just arrive without 'me'.

Thanks Sarah,
Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie

No notion of 'that's my face'

Are you in the body looking out, of the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight? If in a part – which part? Is there a time when the self is not experienced? Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen? When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?

I'm still struggling with the image thing Sarah, need a bit more time with it. I look and see 'a body' it's not 'mine' just a body. Nobody controls it, it just is. Then after a few hours I'm right back 'in' it again.

Havent finished with you yet!!!!! Do you notice the expectation here?

Close your eyes and relax for a minute.
Then examine the body from inside.
Can you know, without memory and concepts, how big this body is? How far away the head is from toes? Is there a line, that separates inside from outside? Here from there?
Scan the body for tensions and look at them closer, what is happening? What are these sensations? What are these sensations happening to? Is there awareness of hand if focus goes on a foot?
Play with this and write what you notice.
Notice this, where focus goes, labelling, narrating story follows. Mind is describing what is being experienced after it has been experienced.
Now do the same exercise with eyes open. What is different? Is there a line between inside and outside? What is that separates here from there? Is there an edge to experience?
Describe what feels true!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

Are you in the body looking out, of the body as a whole or in certain part of the body? If all – then will you exist if you cut your hair, lose an arm or lose weight? If in a part – which part? Is there a time when the self is not experienced? Did the self chose to not experience itself? Did it chose to come back at some point? Or did that just happen? When you had no sense of self – did you disappear?

Gosh, I don't know where I am. I can't find me. Can't find anyone who is doing these things, just thoughts in my head. Existence is experienced and will still happen even if an arm or leg is lost. There are lots of times when self is not experienced and it can't choose to not experience itself or choose to come back, it doesn't exist. It just happened. Thought created it all. I didn't disappear, it was like autopilot.

Havent finished with you yet!!!!! Do you notice the expectation here?

Yes, I do Sarah - it will be gone soon.

Close your eyes and relax for a minute.
Then examine the body from inside.
Can you know, without memory and concepts, how big this body is? How far away the head is from toes? Is there a line, that separates inside from outside? Here from there?
Scan the body for tensions and look at them closer, what is happening? What are these sensations? What are these sensations happening to? Is there awareness of hand if focus goes on a foot?
Play with this and write what you notice.
Notice this, where focus goes, labelling, narrating story follows. Mind is describing what is being experienced after it has been experienced.
Now do the same exercise with eyes open. What is different? Is there a line between inside and outside? What is that separates here from there? Is there an edge to experience?
Describe what feels true!

[/quote]

Can't tell where the body ends at all so no notion of it's size or how far away the head is from the toes. Sensations are pressure on bottom from chair and back pain because the chairback is hard and I'm sat wrong. Looking closer it's sensations happening, being experienced by thoughts (as in no-one). If focus is on the foot there is no experience of a hand. Most of the focus is on the pain though, as it's the loudest thought!

I have tested the mind describing experience after the fact myself Sarah, and know it to be true.

Eyes open experience:
The only difference is vision. There is no line between inside and outside and there's nothing separating the two, it is a whole without edges. Sight is obviously limited (can't see behind me) but there's no sense of a line between what can and can't be seen. This moment is as it is and I can't describe it any other way. The only thing that would separate everything is a thought.

Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Sorry Jackie had a lot on last night. My apologies!

it will be gone soon.

No need for it to be gone. Just see it! :)

Gosh, I don't know where I am. I can't find me.

Keep checking this. Watch 'you' come and go. Watch identification rise and fall. Is it any different from anything else coming and going?

Stop looking at objects and focus only on space. Walk around for about 5 to 10 minutes and focus only on the space around you. Let you hands move around in the space as if they were disembodied from you, from your story, from your identity, from your family, from your past. Just hands dancing in and exploring the space. Explore the idea that your hands are just little sensitive objects in space, that they aren't inherently bound to or associated with a small self. Just expressions of nature's brilliance and beauty. How does it feel to be pure expression pre-identity? I should say, how do THEY feel to be dancing in the air? Any stress? Anxiety? Thoughts? Speak for them, how do they like the experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

Absolutely no need for apologies, I'm not always timely myself. Life does interfere sometimes doesn't it? Here we go..

No need for it to be gone. Just see it! :)

I see it very well now, and you're right, Sarah, it doesn't need to go - just recognised for what it is.

Keep checking this. Watch 'you' come and go. Watch identification rise and fall. Is it any different from anything else coming and going?

No. Not at all, it's exactly the same. It feels like something is falling away now Sarah, life is definately getting smoother somehow. Even the upsets don't seem to be 'sticking' like they used to.

Stop looking at objects and focus only on space. Walk around for about 5 to 10 minutes and focus only on the space around you. Let you hands move around in the space as if they were disembodied from you, from your story, from your identity, from your family, from your past. Just hands dancing in and exploring the space. Explore the idea that your hands are just little sensitive objects in space, that they aren't inherently bound to or associated with a small self. Just expressions of nature's brilliance and beauty. How does it feel to be pure expression pre-identity? I should say, how do THEY feel to be dancing in the air? Any stress? Anxiety? Thoughts? Speak for them, how do they like the experience?

I don't think this is the answer you may be looking for Sarah, but I have to be honest. I don't know! 'I' wasn't even connected to them. Walked round for 10 minutes but got no sense of how they might feel. Neither did I get a feeling that they were at all involved in my 'story'. Perhaps I misunderstood the exercise.

Thanks so much for your patience Sarah. I sometimes seem to be so near and then hit something else which re-identifies me.

Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie

It feels like something is falling away now Sarah, life is definately getting smoother somehow. Even the upsets don't seem to be 'sticking' like they used to.

Is there an expectation that things are going to be alright and that there wont be any upsets in the future? What would want that? Is that thought wanting a nice smooth future? What happens when thought doesn't see that happening?

I don't know! 'I' wasn't even connected to them. Walked round for 10 minutes but got no sense of how they might feel. Neither did I get a feeling that they were at all involved in my 'story'.

So now repeat the mirror exercise. Remember the looking exercise whilst you do it. OK!

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?
While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?
Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?
Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hi again Sarah,

Is there an expectation that things are going to be alright and that there wont be any upsets in the future? What would want that? Is that thought wanting a nice smooth future? What happens when thought doesn't see that happening?

No expectation there Sarah, just an observation that angers and upsets don't 'stick' like they used to so making life seem smoother. Still get ups and downs but I just watch them now (they may 'stick' for a little while) and let them go.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

It's just thoughts and mental images. The mirror image is just vision doing it's thing.

While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?

No, it's like a film on a screen.

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

Again, a moving picture with thoughts trying to claim it. It's like a film (maybe the old horror one, The Thing! Lol)

Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?

The sight in the mirror cannot infer that it is 'my' body. It is an image which is separated from the background by shape and colour.

Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?

Aarrgghh! I'm legless! Just joking. No direct knowledge at all, there can't be. Just mental thoughts and images (+ memory) putting them there.

Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?

Only sensations (seeing). No direct experience of a body.

Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

There are sensations of feet touching the ground, air moving but mainly moving vision happening. No ownership of a body.

Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie
Harking back here!

I experience myself as a jumble of thoughts that inhabit the whole of my body but with a solid 'lump' in the middle. It's like a spider with legs that spread throughout the rest of me. When all is going well this self feels quite light but when I experience problems it feels oh so heavy.

Does the feeling of 'oh so heavy' translates into body image?

Who or what is it that has these thoughts and beliefs about a body?

Why is there a desperate need to ditch attachment to the body?

What do you want? Really - dig deep - what do you want?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Dangermouse]

Hitting the nail on the head with this as usual Sarah. Can't wait to look at this one. You'll have a reply by tonight. You are great and very much appreciated. Xx

[Dangermouse]

Hi Sarah,

Remember I said life seemed to be running a lot smoother lately? Well, I am now officially a confused mess lol. I've been looking at this all day and haven't for one minute liked what i found.

Does the feeling of 'oh so heavy' translates into body image?

Oh yes, spot on Sarah. Weight gain = unhappy, weight loss = happy (until it goes too far and enters really dark depression). Then there's the fight which can last years to get back to 'normal' so I can function again. And so the cycle goes on.

Who or what is it that has these thoughts and beliefs about a body?

I don't bloody (sorry) know any more, but they've damn well stuck.

Why is there a desperate need to ditch attachment to the body?

This is stopping me from progressing in my sincere wish to 'see'. I'm too attached to it. This all began when I was 22 (after the birth of my first child) and I will be 59 in August and I'm sick of the way it's taken over my life. I know, I know, who's damn life? Seems like a brick wall that I keep throwing myself at.

What do you want? Really - dig deep - what do you want?

Believe me, Sarah, I've spent a lot of the day crying and trying to 'look'. As soon as I saw your email tears immediately sprang to my eyes. It was this last question that triggered that response. This is going to be long and rambling and after you've read it you'll probably think you're wastiing you're precious time on me but please don't abandon me, I really want this.

I want to die Sarah. There, it's out. I thought I physically wanted this so around 2 years ago I took one and a half times the fatal dose of my anti-depressants. I haven't been taking them for about 6 months now because they are not the 'answer'. How can you deal with life if tablets are 'making you feel better'? All this got me was a year with a therapist, 2 years of Navigo and 5 days of feeling shitty. Oh, along with a lovely conversation with the A & E doctor about how lucky I was. Lucky!!!! My friend ( who took me to the hospital) insisted on telling my daughter and son, and besides their obvious concern, they no longer trust me to be 'ok' on my own which creates more problems than you may think.

So then I started earnestly searching for 'something to make things better'. I'd already read a library of books dealing with grief which seemed like mush to cover up devastation. I'd also read lots of 'afterlife' stuff, trying to convince myself I would see my dearest Michael again, but I am incapable of holding that belief. I'd also read Butterflies are Free to Fly which really interested me but I couldn't engage with the 'infinite I' idea. I have no religious beliefs (sometimes I wish I did for the comfort it may bring). What had always sustained me was the great love between myself and Michael, and now he is gone. The love will always remain with me.

After my suicide attempt I read all of Jed McKenna's books and they gripped me for a while but I didn't have enough fight in me for such a massive effort he seemed to propose. Also read the 'My Big Toe' (theory of everything) trilogy and other no-self/not knowing kind of books. Then in my desperate search (and it has been desperate sometimes) I found 'Marked Eternal' leading to Liberation Unleashed.

When I first answered the question 'what are you looking for' my answer was honest and genuine, I sincerely just wanted to stop fighting life and what it has done to me. Right from school age it seems to have been so hard and I am exhausted with the effort of maintaining this story.

But Sarah, I think I've been lying (to myself, never to you). This is just another attempt at non-existence. I want out and can't because of my family. I'm living a life I don't want to live because I can't put my family through the agony of not being able to help. And feeling sorry for myself to boot!

Sorry this has been such a long ramble Sarah, but the day has been rough and it needed to come out.

Answer - What do i want? Blessed relief from life and anguish. And I also want you to kick my backside Sarah. This is not 'looking'.

It seems so ridiculous to be affected so much by a damn story. I 'know' there is no me so why is all this stuff sticking?

Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie
Ive sent you a pm. Can you please read and respond to that first? Thanks.

Believe me, Sarah, I've spent a lot of the day crying and trying to 'look'. As soon as I saw your email tears immediately sprang to my eyes. It was this last question that triggered that response.

Can you tell me what makes life so unbearable? Is it thoughts? Or something else?

Can you strip it down to sensations and look into the sensations experienced at the time. What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. Does the sensation change continually or vibrate? Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this sensation been labelled? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it the same as it was 5 mins ago or yesterday? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called whatever you call it? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation the same? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear or whatever’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. Can you see that? See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know what these sensations were? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?

When you have thoughts about how unbearable life is - what is actually happening in that very moment that can be noticed with the senses?
Big hugs and love Jackie xxxxx

[Dangermouse]

I'm going to reply in more depth later Sarah, but wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have never looked at it like this before but even after one read of your message - it's just sensations, not good or bad. Sensations are just sensations and they're not that bad at all until the 'I' thought jumps in and claims them. Going to read and re-read this one Sarah.

What a wonderful being you are
Love Jackie
x

[Sarah7]

Hey Jackie
Try it lots! Keep looking. Be aware of what ever arises. Notice.
Notice if thought pops up - who did that? Did you bring the thoughts?
Notice if sensation arises - who did that? Did you bring them?

Is there something that notices all this coming and going?
Hugs Sarah xxx