I will try. I work retail so despite it being a weekend I still work today, but I already had an all day hike planned for tomorrow.
My original thought of a test was the opposite, to not look at all for a few days and see if this feeling keeps coming up despite that, but I will try what you say. the I filter still seems there and quite at the forefront of life. I will admit though last night as I was watching tv and drifting off to sleep, I woke up after dozing for about 30-40 minutes and therefore not thinking of the self and the feeling was suddenly the strongest it had been all day. I will admit though that things seems just a little different, just barely, almost imperceptibly different.
I have heard it said here that to see it for even a second is enough to suck you all the way in. I don't know if that's true or not. I feel like I have sort of seen it a handful of times, a number actually but it, somehow never seemed quite complete, like I was seeing it 80% but there was still some "thing" missing from the whole picture and no "pop." More like there is this build up and it seems like it is going to a "pop" it works to head.....holds.....and then the energy just falls away, no pop, more like it's hard to concentrate on looking anymore, like the mind won't focus itself there anymore.
There is concern that I can make it sound like I have seen because I have read enough posts that I have just fallen in line with the vernacular here. There is also the concern that I have seen enough to change my basic life paradigm but without the process being complete. When someone asks if there is a you I still want to say "Yes, of course there is! What kind of stupid question is that?" But I will do as you ask and report back.
How do you know when you're done?
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
LOL!
I pretty well champaigne cork popped my dear, and I still often say to my "self" of course there is a self. :-) I mean it's inherent as you have so aptly noted, in tne EMBODIEDness of life, and the "sense of self," as a navigational tool never completely departs...it just waxes and wanes in strength, foreground/background kind of thing.
Of coures you have a hike tomorrow, that is perfect. I have a good feeling about this hike....
I will say that the POP you are looking for is understandable and you know what is true or just short of true. I am with you until that is true for you Daniel, or until you bow out until another round, another time. But as they say, there is no time like the present.
Lori Ann
I pretty well champaigne cork popped my dear, and I still often say to my "self" of course there is a self. :-) I mean it's inherent as you have so aptly noted, in tne EMBODIEDness of life, and the "sense of self," as a navigational tool never completely departs...it just waxes and wanes in strength, foreground/background kind of thing.
Of coures you have a hike tomorrow, that is perfect. I have a good feeling about this hike....
I will say that the POP you are looking for is understandable and you know what is true or just short of true. I am with you until that is true for you Daniel, or until you bow out until another round, another time. But as they say, there is no time like the present.
Lori Ann
Re: How do you know when you're done?
I guess it must be done....I guess. I fully planned on coming here today and saying it's not finished yet. There are tons of I referring thoughts. I went on the hike yesterday and I felt no particular connection to nature. In fact it was a lot colder than I had planned and actually started snowing, I was kind of pissed off for a little while. The mind isn't quiet. I actually felt much more "connected" when I was looking than after I was declared done. Nothing feels different, save this one tiny almost indiscernible little thing. If I hadn't been here to have people tell me there's a chance I never would have even known, or at least it would have taken a long time, like maybe years to figure it out. I was fully planning on coming here and saying I wasn't done up until even an hour ago, when just what that tiny indiscernible difference was hit me. Nothing affects my sense of self...I don't want to say esteem, more like my sense of self value. I don't really know much how to describe it. I may still have regret, but it is because some situation could have been handled better, not because it detracts from me. I may feel awkward socially somehow, but it's because I don't know what to do, it doesn't have any long term effect on my sense of value. I may not want to be alone, but it's because I'll get bored and I want companionship, not because if I'm left by myself for too long I'll start thinking all kinds of shitty stuff about my me or life. And it makes sense. If there's no self, how can one feel bad about a self? Even though I do still feel like a "me." and suspect I always will. The feeling was real, so the feeling stays. The thoughts were real, so they stay. Even their content descriptions about a specific body moving through the world, having a sense of identity, and being interested in it's own best interest have validity, so they haven't dropped away.
This is the only thing I have found different, and I only just realized it so I'll have to watch for a little while and see if it sticks, but I suspect it will. Let me know what you think.
This is the only thing I have found different, and I only just realized it so I'll have to watch for a little while and see if it sticks, but I suspect it will. Let me know what you think.
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
Hi Daniel!
So great to hear that you are seeing clearly, the subtle truth...often it's like a seed at first, and then it roots down and grows upward...in otherwords, this is just the beginning.
As I said above, it looks from here that you are through that gate/have seen through the self...sometimes it's like a kind of soft pop, not the cork off the champaigne. And where it goes from here is a bit like that expression, "the cat's out of the bag." (which makes me laugh, who created that one?). I am trying to say, you've seen it. It cannot be unseen from here onward.
Would you answer these five questions for me? Take your time or not. :-)
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over? What had you SEE through the illusion of self?
hugs
Lori ANn
So great to hear that you are seeing clearly, the subtle truth...often it's like a seed at first, and then it roots down and grows upward...in otherwords, this is just the beginning.
Yes, it's hard to take the self seriously, when the self is seen for what it is, a wispy thought/belief cloud. The end of suffering begins when the self that would suffer, is seen through.I was fully planning on coming here and saying I wasn't done up until even an hour ago, when just what that tiny indiscernible difference was hit me. Nothing affects my sense of self...I don't want to say esteem, more like my sense of self value. I don't really know much how to describe it. I may still have regret, but it is because some situation could have been handled better, not because it detracts from me. I may feel awkward socially somehow, but it's because I don't know what to do, it doesn't have any long term effect on my sense of value. I may not want to be alone, but it's because I'll get bored and I want companionship, not because if I'm left by myself for too long I'll start thinking all kinds of shitty stuff about my me or life. And it makes sense. If there's no self, how can one feel bad about a self? Even though I do still feel like a "me." and suspect I always will. The feeling was real, so the feeling stays. The thoughts were real, so they stay. Even their content descriptions about a specific body moving through the world, having a sense of identity, and being interested in it's own best interest have validity, so they haven't dropped away.
This is the only thing I have found different, and I only just realized it so I'll have to watch for a little while and see if it sticks, but I suspect it will. Let me know what you think.
As I said above, it looks from here that you are through that gate/have seen through the self...sometimes it's like a kind of soft pop, not the cork off the champaigne. And where it goes from here is a bit like that expression, "the cat's out of the bag." (which makes me laugh, who created that one?). I am trying to say, you've seen it. It cannot be unseen from here onward.
Would you answer these five questions for me? Take your time or not. :-)
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over? What had you SEE through the illusion of self?
hugs
Lori ANn
Re: How do you know when you're done?
I don't know what to say or think. I am back to thinking it's not done.
I think the best thing for me is to take a few days and just look myself without reporting to anyone. I know you guys are here and will help if I need it. There are some changes that I'm seeing but I'm not sure if they're a result of just having looked a lot, and it having the effect of excessive meditation. That I haven't seen but have had my perception significantly altered. Which is great and is a net positive effect , but isn't seeing. There are some things I see/hear the liberated talk about that are just beyond me.
I'm going to spend a few days doing this on my own. I will write down any sticking points and report back.
I think the best thing for me is to take a few days and just look myself without reporting to anyone. I know you guys are here and will help if I need it. There are some changes that I'm seeing but I'm not sure if they're a result of just having looked a lot, and it having the effect of excessive meditation. That I haven't seen but have had my perception significantly altered. Which is great and is a net positive effect , but isn't seeing. There are some things I see/hear the liberated talk about that are just beyond me.
I'm going to spend a few days doing this on my own. I will write down any sticking points and report back.
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
all good Daniel--but funny just today in the morning I came across a quote from Ramana Maharshi that more or less says, the thing that stands in the way of enlightenement is the belief that you are not. (pateraphrase)
Don't look to 'liberated others' to define your own knowing. Every one is differnent, every karma is different, something there is a huge POP (like a champaigne cork) and others a soft pop. In the end, the knowing that you have truly seen through self, is yours to declare of course. Otherwise this would be persuasion, not investigation.
big hug,
Lori Ann
Don't look to 'liberated others' to define your own knowing. Every one is differnent, every karma is different, something there is a huge POP (like a champaigne cork) and others a soft pop. In the end, the knowing that you have truly seen through self, is yours to declare of course. Otherwise this would be persuasion, not investigation.
big hug,
Lori Ann
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
hahaha--you would think english is my third language the way I type up so many typos!
Re: How do you know when you're done?
Okay. I am satisfied. It is don. No more wavering. I've looked for a few days, and it's not everything I expected but..... well I'm satisfied.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Well it's in the way I explained before. I'm thinking of it through that lens so much anymore. The appearance of a self, even usually even to myself is there, it's a way of functioning, a way of moving through the world. But in a deeper sense no there is not. Anything you can focus on as a self is something else. For me the gateway was through feelings. I think I was looking for it to be through thought, I think that way would have given me the pop I was looking for but in the end in came quietly through a different avenue. No there never was, it was all the same illusion that still presently exists, only now it is seen as an illusion.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Once again I've already covered this previously. It is the idea that there is some kind of governing agent that is in control of the body.It still feels that way, there is the commentator, the narrator, the the critic, it still attaches itself to physical feelings, but it is lie. No one does it, it just happens, often I have to look to see that, but if I look it's there. I've heard people talk about no separateness from the world. I don't see it that way, there is still consciousness that is carried in a body that is distinct form say, a tree. "I" am not a tree. I understand what they mean about the experience not being separate from the experiencer but that is just not how it occurs for me.
3) How does it feel to see this?
Kind of funny. I have had the idea I my head off an on for like 12 years or so. I never really started looking seriously til a couple of years ago, but the idea has always been there. Now I have it, or however you would say that, and it's no big whoop. I really don't feel too different, I notice I'm not in the grips of negative emotion so much but really everything is pretty much the same. The self never existed so nothing changes.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
The same way you guys do. With some basic explanation of the concept, then prodding them to find out for themselves.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over? What had you SEE through the illusion of self?
It's hard to know, I'm not really exactly sure when it happened. It was a long drawn out process for me, no pop, so the biggest thing was just a dedication to see it, and not relenting.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Well it's in the way I explained before. I'm thinking of it through that lens so much anymore. The appearance of a self, even usually even to myself is there, it's a way of functioning, a way of moving through the world. But in a deeper sense no there is not. Anything you can focus on as a self is something else. For me the gateway was through feelings. I think I was looking for it to be through thought, I think that way would have given me the pop I was looking for but in the end in came quietly through a different avenue. No there never was, it was all the same illusion that still presently exists, only now it is seen as an illusion.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Once again I've already covered this previously. It is the idea that there is some kind of governing agent that is in control of the body.It still feels that way, there is the commentator, the narrator, the the critic, it still attaches itself to physical feelings, but it is lie. No one does it, it just happens, often I have to look to see that, but if I look it's there. I've heard people talk about no separateness from the world. I don't see it that way, there is still consciousness that is carried in a body that is distinct form say, a tree. "I" am not a tree. I understand what they mean about the experience not being separate from the experiencer but that is just not how it occurs for me.
3) How does it feel to see this?
Kind of funny. I have had the idea I my head off an on for like 12 years or so. I never really started looking seriously til a couple of years ago, but the idea has always been there. Now I have it, or however you would say that, and it's no big whoop. I really don't feel too different, I notice I'm not in the grips of negative emotion so much but really everything is pretty much the same. The self never existed so nothing changes.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
The same way you guys do. With some basic explanation of the concept, then prodding them to find out for themselves.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over? What had you SEE through the illusion of self?
It's hard to know, I'm not really exactly sure when it happened. It was a long drawn out process for me, no pop, so the biggest thing was just a dedication to see it, and not relenting.
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
Hello Daniel!
You seem pretty solidly to see through the I thought/belief, and yes, I do know that a felt sense of self is naturally present as long as we are embodied. It's the belief in the false construct of 'I' that has dissolved (not the sense of it), or more for you it seems like a slow leak in a tire, until one day, that illusory I was just too flat to drive on anymore. This is a start, a new birthday in a a way and a death too. Death of the illusion, birth of truth. That your shift feels subtle is not an indicator of it's potency because as you have heard, once seen, the truth cannot be unseen....it informs everything from now on.
I'd like to let some other LU guides peek at your answers.our thread, see if they have anymore questions for you. Stay tuned!
Big hug,
Lori Ann
You seem pretty solidly to see through the I thought/belief, and yes, I do know that a felt sense of self is naturally present as long as we are embodied. It's the belief in the false construct of 'I' that has dissolved (not the sense of it), or more for you it seems like a slow leak in a tire, until one day, that illusory I was just too flat to drive on anymore. This is a start, a new birthday in a a way and a death too. Death of the illusion, birth of truth. That your shift feels subtle is not an indicator of it's potency because as you have heard, once seen, the truth cannot be unseen....it informs everything from now on.
I'd like to let some other LU guides peek at your answers.our thread, see if they have anymore questions for you. Stay tuned!
Big hug,
Lori Ann
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
Hello there Daniel:
There was a bit of qusetioning from others whether you were thinking or experiencing this shift. It might be a lost-in-translation thing, written language being confusing sometimes.
So I want to go back to something you said a few posts earlier,
Can you tell me a bit more about how this experience of no-self reveals itself? It would be helpful if you could relate actual accounts where in the course of your day and doings, this clarity of no-doer shows up.
As for the felt sense of oneness/unity with all things (I think that's what you are pointing at re: the tree) that may be just one side effect of realizing the false identity of the separate self/I. Don't worry about what you are not experiencing, but just report what is being experienced. :-)
thanks!
Lori Ann
There was a bit of qusetioning from others whether you were thinking or experiencing this shift. It might be a lost-in-translation thing, written language being confusing sometimes.
So I want to go back to something you said a few posts earlier,
I was fully planning on coming here and saying I wasn't done up until even an hour ago, when just what that tiny indiscernible difference was hit me. Nothing affects my sense of self....... And it makes sense. If there's no self, how can one feel bad about a self? Even though I do still feel like a "me." and suspect I always will. The feeling was real, so the feeling stays. The thoughts were real, so they stay. Even their content descriptions about a specific body moving through the world, having a sense of identity, and being interested in it's own best interest have validity, so they haven't dropped away."
When I look at the title of your thread, how do I know when I'm done, it becomes clear that this is a key piece for you (knowing for sure) and above you are reporting this new sense of okayness with the is-ness of life, or an equanimity at the core? That this was the tip off that you have had an had a real shift of persepective.
Can you tell me a bit more about how this experience of no-self reveals itself? It would be helpful if you could relate actual accounts where in the course of your day and doings, this clarity of no-doer shows up.
As for the felt sense of oneness/unity with all things (I think that's what you are pointing at re: the tree) that may be just one side effect of realizing the false identity of the separate self/I. Don't worry about what you are not experiencing, but just report what is being experienced. :-)
thanks!
Lori Ann
Re: How do you know when you're done?
At first I didn't notice you had made a second reply after the previous one. Then when I did I was starting to have doubts again and didn't want to post, so sorry for the delay. There is no doubting this shit!!
I don't really know how I would relate it exactly but I will try. At first I didn't feel anything or see any differences in life, but I knew that I had seen clearly "no self" several times, and I know I had heard that seeing it once was enough, so I started looking for evidence, and it was slow, but it did come. The first thing was what I mentioned before. There was this tiny sense of something being different, almost intangibly so, and it took a few days but it did come to me, no matter what happened, I was okay with it. After that the biggest thing was where I work it gets extremely bust and stressful at times, but I wasn't getting wrapped up in it like everyone else. There was a feeling in my body that I would recognize as being called stress but I didn't really care and it had no particular effect on me. While others around me were getting worked up and even snapping and saying hostile things to each other I basically completely unphased, even a little shocked that everyone else wasn't fine too. A big give away for me was when I went to a poker game at a friends house one night and a few beers. I have always meditated a lot and I would get worked into these deep states that remained during normal life functioning for weeks and even months at a time. But everytime I would drink they would disappear for a few days, well this time it got deeper, and in the morning it was still there. Also usually when I would meditate I spend like 20-30 minutes getting worked down into this trance like state and now, a.) no trance needed, and b.) it's instant, I sit down close my eyes or whatever, and I'm just there. I go to lunch I sit in my car I experience stillness, or silence or whatever word you would like to ascribe to it. I think like normal but I can also make the decision to shut off the mind and it does (mostly.) Today I really experienced as being deeper I was on lunch break, just sitting watching the sky and a plane flew high over head it was like sitting in a still picture....except it was moving :p. I went back in and was just unreasonably unhappy for absolutely no reason, and I could see others could see it in me. I don't really experience no doer as such, it feels like a me, but I know that's bullshit and there is a kind flow to everything.
I don't know this is probably a pretty disjointed kind of post, writing is really not my strong suit, but feel free to ask anything else you'd like.....and thanks to everyone who played a hand, it took a long time but it's definitely done.
I don't really know how I would relate it exactly but I will try. At first I didn't feel anything or see any differences in life, but I knew that I had seen clearly "no self" several times, and I know I had heard that seeing it once was enough, so I started looking for evidence, and it was slow, but it did come. The first thing was what I mentioned before. There was this tiny sense of something being different, almost intangibly so, and it took a few days but it did come to me, no matter what happened, I was okay with it. After that the biggest thing was where I work it gets extremely bust and stressful at times, but I wasn't getting wrapped up in it like everyone else. There was a feeling in my body that I would recognize as being called stress but I didn't really care and it had no particular effect on me. While others around me were getting worked up and even snapping and saying hostile things to each other I basically completely unphased, even a little shocked that everyone else wasn't fine too. A big give away for me was when I went to a poker game at a friends house one night and a few beers. I have always meditated a lot and I would get worked into these deep states that remained during normal life functioning for weeks and even months at a time. But everytime I would drink they would disappear for a few days, well this time it got deeper, and in the morning it was still there. Also usually when I would meditate I spend like 20-30 minutes getting worked down into this trance like state and now, a.) no trance needed, and b.) it's instant, I sit down close my eyes or whatever, and I'm just there. I go to lunch I sit in my car I experience stillness, or silence or whatever word you would like to ascribe to it. I think like normal but I can also make the decision to shut off the mind and it does (mostly.) Today I really experienced as being deeper I was on lunch break, just sitting watching the sky and a plane flew high over head it was like sitting in a still picture....except it was moving :p. I went back in and was just unreasonably unhappy for absolutely no reason, and I could see others could see it in me. I don't really experience no doer as such, it feels like a me, but I know that's bullshit and there is a kind flow to everything.
I don't know this is probably a pretty disjointed kind of post, writing is really not my strong suit, but feel free to ask anything else you'd like.....and thanks to everyone who played a hand, it took a long time but it's definitely done.
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
Yes, Daniel, you are done way in my view--and will pass on your reply to guides for verification. Yes! to your unfolding equanimity and yes to how trance is no longer needed--this is the seeker falling away, and the seeker of states.
stay tuned! A big hug and a glass of 2003 Barolo is in my hand, a toast to you-no you. :-)
Lori Ann
stay tuned! A big hug and a glass of 2003 Barolo is in my hand, a toast to you-no you. :-)
Lori Ann
-
AwarenessIsHere
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:12 pm
- Contact:
Re: How do you know when you're done?
way done! I mean. (really, only one glass of barolo in my hand/tummy)...no trance needed, just instant...that is such a good way of saying the thing that was sought, is here already, I am just now able to notice it instantly. :-)
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 155 guests