Seeking the truth and request to be guided

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

If you look now, is there a 'self' anywhere in experience? Was there ever?

No self, never was.

And when it feels like the story of Aino is present and you ask yourself:

Is there a 'self' anywhere in experience? Was there ever?

Do you get the same answer?

Usually there is this kind of... wavering experience of self. I look, and can't find it. It almost dissolves, but not quite. It's like a tiny peripheral flame that flickers, sometimes bursting into a firestorm consuming every last bit of awareness. I don't know how else to describe it. I know it's not there, and I can look for it and see it's not there... But it kinda is.

When the story of Aino is fully present, I don't ask myself. I don't remember to look. That's the problem. Sometimes there may be a brief opening to awareness, but it's usually short lived. If I try to look, it often gets interrupted and absorbed by other thoughts. Like in a lucid dream! I've had a couple: suddenly I wake up in a dream, I know it's a dream. But I forget it quite soon after, the lucidity doesn't last. I fall back to a normal dream. Also when with people, I can't LOOK. The thought to do it just doesn't come up. It's only hours or in some case days before I realize. Every time it feels like waking up from being possessed or something.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

How about when you are next about to be with a person or people you pause before meeting them and resolve to LOOK while with them? See what happens. Or set a calendar reminder on your phone to say LOOK at a time when you know you'll be with people? This will probably begin to create new habit.

Do you think you are through the gate?

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

How about when you are next about to be with a person or people you pause before meeting them and resolve to LOOK while with them? See what happens. Or set a calendar reminder on your phone to say LOOK at a time when you know you'll be with people? This will probably begin to create new habit.

Thanks, I'll try that. I've been practicing this with my boyfriend, but it seems the awareness disappears the same time I begin to speak or do something. Somehow I can't speak or move from awareness, it's like Aino takes control whenever I interact with the world somehow. This would be fine if the awareness would return automatically, but it doesn't. If I go out and do stuff, there's a chance it's gonna be days before there's awareness again. At some point I did use random notifications to "wake up" during the day, but it didn't really work. Pretty soon I just dismissed them without stopping to look at all.

These past few days it's been really warm and sunny here, and we have been going out to the beach two days in a row. But both times we had to leave soon after we got there, because "I" had a really bad anxiety attack and I couldn't be around people. And I tried my hardest to ask these things, "Where is the I in this experience?" "Who is anxious?" but got no answers. The feelings were so overwhelming there was no room for awareness.

Do you think you are through the gate?

I honestly am not sure. Other times there's a feeling that I am, and other times not. Right now it feels like I'm right there AT the gate, but not really through. It feels like I've been there, but can't remember just quite what it felt like. It's like a dream after waking up, it begins to fade. I notice there's a lot of grasping and clinging. Again I'm trying to hold on to an experience, that peace and clarity. The mind is living in the past and it's anxious about the future, there is no presence.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

I wonder if you are still trying to hold onto a kind of no-self experience? So when you are with another person expecting it to feel a certain way? Who is there to have the experience and what is that experience other than sensations and thoughts?

If you are standing at the gate, what is standing at the gate, what is stopping 'you' from going through the gate? Where is the gate? What is the gate?! What do you expect to happen once you have passed through the gateless gate...?

Warm and sunny wishes,

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

I wonder if you are still trying to hold onto a kind of no-self experience? So when you are with another person expecting it to feel a certain way? Who is there to have the experience and what is that experience other than sensations and thoughts?

Yes, I notice holding on to expectations. When the present experience is uncomfortable and I'm alone, I can usually see how it is: just an experience. I can handle it, I can be aware of it, and sometimes I can decide not to believe it. With people this seeing doesn't seem to work at all, even if I remember to look. The anxiety that flares up fills the entire experience and then there is only anxiety, no awareness. Which is to say that I'm identifying with the anxiety, or more as a character experiencing anxiety.

If you are standing at the gate, what is standing at the gate, what is stopping 'you' from going through the gate? Where is the gate? What is the gate?! What do you expect to happen once you have passed through the gateless gate...?

I know, right? Haha! It's so absurd.

I took some time to listen and look, and I found out that at the core there is a fear of "falling asleep" and continuing suffering. With suffering I mean the absence of awareness and identifying with the sensations and stories, not really the sensations themselves. I was quite young when I first "stepped on the path". There has been little "awakenings" or glimpses along the way but mostly it's been long periods (even years) of identifying with whatever story was currently there. There's a fear of falling back to that suffering and unawareness.

I see a clear pattern here: Read spiritual or other mind blowing stuff -> Increased awareness -> Start meditation again -> Read more stuff -> Keep up the awareness -> Can't keep holding on to it because it takes so much work -> Fall back to "sleep" and forget everything

The same cycle has been going on and on for many years. In a way I feel I've been getting somewhere, but it might just as well be intellectual understanding and knowledge about this process. If "I" pursue something, like liberation, it implies there has to be "I" that can be liberated. And I see that liberation is just that, seeing there is no "I" to be liberated.

So what do I expect to happen once I'm through the gate? KNOWING there is no self or any separation. That I don't have to keep it up, keep practicing and proving it, keep reading and coming back to REMIND myself of this "fact". It still feels like a belief or something I'm learning, and not that I actually really completely KNOW it. I feel I'm not really through because I have to put so much effort and work to remember it all and be present. I know you said the self-ing will continue after the gate also, but I think this is different.

An example how things go on daily basis: I wake up completely identified with being Aino. Every single morning. So it kinda feels like I'm starting from scratch every day. It takes an hour, maybe two to remember that, oh yeah, there's something more. But in this moment I can't just LOOK and find there's no I, it doesn't come naturally and the illusion is very persistent. So I have to work for it. Then I might come here and read your replies and write which usually opens up room for awareness. But as soon as I'm done, if I'm not actively thinking about it or meditating through the day, it's forgotten.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Sorry for the delayed response I was away visiting family for 2 days and travelling.

Thanks for your reply. Based on this and a previous post I wanted to check something. When you are with others or after waking up, just because there isn't this awareness of no-self, does that mean there is a belief in self? There maybe thoughts, sensations, emotions (eg anxiety etc) all happening but does this doesn't necessarily include a belief in self is there. So I wanted to check if you have some idea that unless you are continually looking with full direct experience and seeing no-self then this means it's all somehow lost and belief in self is back?

Can you clarify this - or when you are with other people or waking up, is there belief in self or rather just being absorbed in experience? If the latter, what is wrong with this?

Kindness

Vali

[Desert Dog]

An example how things go on daily basis: I wake up completely identified with being Aino. Every single morning.

What can be found that is identifying with Aino?

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Sorry for the delayed response I was away visiting family for 2 days and travelling.

No problem at all, I hope you had a nice time :)

Can you clarify this - or when you are with other people or waking up, is there belief in self or rather just being absorbed in experience? If the latter, what is wrong with this?

There's a belief in a self in that way that thoughts say I'm feeling this or that. It may be happy or sad, god or bad, but there's a distinct feeling it all is happening to me.

So I wanted to check if you have some idea that unless you are continually looking with full direct experience and seeing no-self then this means it's all somehow lost and belief in self is back?

Is there a difference? Isn't that what we're trying to do here, to see through the illusion of separation? If it's not "permanent", what's the point? Isn't this then same thing that taking mushrooms or whatever else, just getting a glimpse or an experience of "seeing" and then it's gone again?

What can be found that is identifying with Aino?

Thoughts.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

There's a belief in a self in that way that thoughts say I'm feeling this or that. It may be happy or sad, good or bad, but there's a distinct feeling it all is happening to me.

Is that true? Do you believe this? Where is the me that this is happening to? How can a feeling say this is happening to a me? How does that work?

I wake up completely identified with being Aino. Every single morning. So it kinda feels like I'm starting from scratch every day. It takes an hour, maybe two to remember that, oh yeah, there's something more. But in this moment I can't just LOOK and find there's no I, it doesn't come naturally and the illusion is very persistent.

I asked you "What can be found that is identifying with Aino?" and you said that it is thoughts that are identifying with Aino. So there is a thought that is identifying with the thought/label Aino - does this mean a self exists? You've seen through this already haven't you? If there are thoughts like this happening, what is the problem with this, it doesn't mean they need to be believed? It's like an old habit that's still running. Do you see?

Is there a difference? Isn't that what we're trying to do here, to see through the illusion of separation? If it's not "permanent", what's the point? Isn't this then same thing that taking mushrooms or whatever else, just getting a glimpse or an experience of "seeing" and then it's gone again?

The experience of "seeing" is just a by product of the "seeing" - the experience might be felt as openness, or bliss, or peace, or sheer terror, or anxiety etc and can be different each time the belief in self is seen through. But the experience of this is not something you can hang onto or repeat or that will stick around permanently. The key thing is seeing through the belief in self, which seems like you have done already, and can do again as thoughts arise.

So as mentioned above, the habitual thoughts associated with the belief in self will continue to arise (self-ing), and this is ok and normal and not something to beat yourself up over and feel a failure - you just need to keep looking at these thoughts and asking is that true? Where is the self this thought is pointing to? Where is the me that this thought is identifying with? etc.

Does this make sense?

Seeing through the false idea of a self is not a trip, it's simply the realisation that it's false.

Kind wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Is that true? Do you believe this? Where is the me that this is happening to? How can a feeling say this is happening to a me? How does that work?

It depends when you're asking. When there is awareness, illusion is seen through, there is no me. When there's no awareness, what's left is sensations and thoughts that basically say "I'm Aino, I'm like this, world is like that, I feel like this" etc. So that's the experience. Previously you asked "just because there isn't this awareness of no-self, does that mean there is a belief in self?". Yes, because those are the experiences, self or no-self.

I would describe it as going in and out of the gate. And this is the confusing part, because I thought once through the gate there's no going back, so to speak. Because there never was a gate! But it feels like I'm going back, and "unseeing" what has been seen.

I asked you "What can be found that is identifying with Aino?" and you said that it is thoughts that are identifying with Aino. So there is a thought that is identifying with the thought/label Aino - does this mean a self exists?

No, the self doesn't exist, but the illusion of it does.

You've seen through this already haven't you? If there are thoughts like this happening, what is the problem with this, it doesn't mean they need to be believed? It's like an old habit that's still running. Do you see?

That's the problem, the unseeing. The illusion IS the old habit, and it keeps coming back.

Does this make sense?

It does. There's just this fear that "unseeing" might become a permanent state. It's not a problem that self-ing happens, but that there's no awareness to "catch" self-ing. So it's the only experience, and the illusion remains.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Dear Aino,

I've got lots of short questions for you today!

When there is awareness, illusion is seen through

How would you describe 'awareness' - what is it, where is it, where does it begin and end?

When there is awareness, illusion is seen through, there is no me.

How does 'awareness' see through illusion? Is this true? What exactly is seeing through what?

When there's no awareness, what's left is sensations and thoughts that basically say "I'm Aino, I'm like this, world is like that, I feel like this" etc.

How do you know there is no awareness, what is deciding this?
How does a sensation say "I'm Aino" - do sensations talk? Can you describe a sensation that is saying "I'm Aino"?
If there is a thought that says "I''m Aino" floating around, so what? Why does that = belief in self? Doesn't it just mean a thought is currently in existence that says "I'm Aino", and then that thought passes. When that thought passes, what then happens to the 'belief'?
Can you describe what you mean by belief? Is it a thought? Is it permanent or changing?

There's just this fear that "unseeing" might become a permanent state. It's not a problem that self-ing happens, but that there's no awareness to "catch" self-ing. So it's the only experience, and the illusion remains.

Is there any such thing as a permanent state?

As an exercise, when you first wake up, try looking at experience right then. As it's a key trigger for you try to notice whether there is any pain or suffering or discomfort happening at that moment. Then ask things like, "Where is Aino in this pain? Where is the me in this? To whom is this pain happening."

See how you get on, Kind wishes

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Sorry for the silence, a lot was happening this weekend. I will answer the questions tomorrow, if that's okay.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Sure, no worries.

Vali

[Aino]

Dear Vali,

Sorry for even bigger delay. It's been rough lately. It seems everything is kinda falling apart. Labels dropping, identity, beliefs, thoughts... The change is rapid, things are so unfamiliar, it's a bit scary. I've been looking every day, every time I remember to do it, but the thoughts about the self and it's problems are very loud and dominant. There is constant fluctuation and shifting in awareness. Also it begins to be more and more difficult to use language, because I see how misleading and uninformative it can be!

How would you describe 'awareness' - what is it, where is it, where does it begin and end?

How does 'awareness' see through illusion? Is this true? What exactly is seeing through what?

It was a poor choice of words for my part. It's all the same thing: Awareness = Illusion seen through = No I = No illusion. That's what I mean when I say "There is awareness". In reality 'awareness' is just a word to describe the absence of self and separation. The awareness is not seeing through anything, the seeing itself is just happening.

How do you know there is no awareness, what is deciding this?

No awareness = Illusion is present

How does a sensation say "I'm Aino" - do sensations talk? Can you describe a sensation that is saying "I'm Aino"?

Again I wasn't very clear with my text, I meant to say there are sensations, along with "thoughts that say I'm Aino".

If there is a thought that says "I''m Aino" floating around, so what? Why does that = belief in self? Doesn't it just mean a thought is currently in existence that says "I'm Aino", and then that thought passes. When that thought passes, what then happens to the 'belief'?

I honestly don't have a clue how it works. I just know when there are thoughts that are about "me" or "my problems" etc. there is no awareness at all. No seeing happening, or if it is, it's only a very short glimpse before we're back in the thought-sensation-rollercoaster. There's nothing that says "I don't believe this thought", but that would be another thought anyway, am I right? This is very confusing!

Can you describe what you mean by belief? Is it a thought? Is it permanent or changing?

Belief for me is something that can't be proven true or untrue (which nowadays contains about everything) but what the mind "marks" to be either way. These can be thoughts or ideas that pass quickly, or a prolonged state of mind, which I find more common. This "marking" is automatic, and the world is seen like through a lens. I think that's why the belief doesn't pass with the thoughts. It's more like whatever thoughts there are, are being colored through this lens. For example "there's anger" changes automatically to "I'm angry".

Is there any such thing as a permanent state?

Oh, my bad, these words again. Permanent as in lasting this human life.

As an exercise, when you first wake up, try looking at experience right then. As it's a key trigger for you try to notice whether there is any pain or suffering or discomfort happening at that moment. Then ask things like, "Where is Aino in this pain? Where is the me in this? To whom is this pain happening."

Been doing this a lot lately (not only in the mornings though), but didn't really get anywhere. Goes pretty much like this:

"PAIN! THERE'S PAIN! I hate this and everything!"
"All right. Pain is pain. Where is me in this experience?"
"BUT THE PAIN, CAN'T YOU FEEL THE PAIN!?!"
"Yeah... So where is..."
"AAAAAAAAAAARRGH THE PAIN!"

And this is usually when looking just kinda stops, because the thoughts and sensations are so loud and overwhelming. I'll keep trying.

Aino

[Desert Dog]

Hi Aino,

Thanks for your comments - sounds like you are working well! I'll get back to you more later as I'm at work, but here's a quick question.

I'm going away for 2 weeks on Saturday with very little internet (into the forest :) so won't really be able to reply to you in this time. If you like I can ask another guide to take over from me while I am away - would you like that?

Best wishes

Vali