Request to be guided

[tfarrah]

Next time such a situation happens, it might also be caused through thoughts, stay with the uncomfortable sensations and watch them closely, also watch the reaction happening. Where do the sensations arise? How do they feel? What thoughts come up and when?

Today I received an email with a disturbing subject line. The first thing I noticed, before any thought, was a very familiar set of sensations: increased heart rate, shallow breathing, constriction in the chest and throat. Whatever train of thought was happening before I read the subject line was interrupted. There was sensation in the brain that seemed like wordless thought. I call this sensation "wordless thought" because it is one extreme along a continuum of thought experiences. Further along the continuum are thoughts that have a few words or phrases in them ... and further along are thoughts that are complete sentences or even paragraphs. This sensation is also often felt right before actual words appear in the mind.

I would call this collection of sensations shame + panic.

After a few seconds, the thoughts arose, "This is a familiar reaction. I know that it is unproductive to allow it to trigger a series of thoughts. I am going to direct my attention to the sensations until the sensations dissipate."

Still, I noticed the beginnings of the usual thought patterns arising: "I did something wrong. I have to fix this. I am a bad person." After a few second of such thoughts, the thought would arise, "No, this is a pattern. No need to believe these thoughts. Remember the watermelon. Keep the attention on the sensations." Then, "But these thoughts really feel true and urgent!" Then, "Yes, they feel urgent, but they are ephemeral. Keep the attention on the sensations."

This cycle of thought happened over and over again for about 30 minutes. Eventually, the sensations diminished to perhaps 1/10 their original intensity, and this lasted for several hours.

If you don't perceive the thought, it isn't there.

I disagree with this. Even though it seemed the thoughts, "I did something wrong, I have to fix this, I am a bad person" stopped happening after 30 minutes, they must have continued outside of my awareness, otherwise the sensations of shame and panic would not have continued.

When feeling the pure sensations, is there any I having the feelings or is there just feeling?

A whisper of the shame sensations is still there, so I can check this right now. There is just feeling.

Are the sensations and reaction done by something/somebody or do they happen?

They just happen, this is very clear.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Today I received an email with a disturbing subject line. The first thing I noticed, before any thought, was a very familiar set of sensations: increased heart rate, shallow breathing, constriction in the chest and throat.

What you experienced is the basic unit of experience. It consists of a sense perception or a thought + arising sensations.
These two always come together and will always be there.

Sometimes pleasant sensations arise, on other occasions unpleasant ones.

They just happen, this is very clear.

Well seen :-)

Who or what is saying, "This shouldn't be happening, I don't want this. I want to feel differently" ? Who could change what is happening?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Who or what is saying, "This shouldn't be happening, I don't want this. I want to feel differently" ?

I am experiencing unwanted emotion right now, so this is a good time to look.

I experience anger with the question. Thoughts arise, "I've looked at this before. I'm not going to see this any differently this time."

When I continue to hold the question, thoughts of escape arise. "I need to get up and get ready for work."

I can see that the wanting is a thought. A thought with the word "I" in it. And the word "I" is associated with subtle sensations. I've seen this before. I see it now, yet the unpleasantness remains.

I see I have a belief that if I were seeing clearly the unpleasantness would diminish.

Who could change what is happening?

Forgetting about LU, the quick answer is, "I can make the unpleasantness go away by distracting myself or meditating." But who can distract or meditate? Distraction, meditation, these just happen.


OK, now I really do need to get ready for work :-)

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

yes, there are some expectations you are encountering right now.

Thoughts arise, "I've looked at this before. I'm not going to see this any differently this time."

This is the expectation that once something is seen, it is enough. I hate to tell you: It is not. The "knowing" would turn into a new belief. Only directly seeing something again and again has a real impact.

I see I have a belief that if I were seeing clearly the unpleasantness would diminish.

Well seen! All feelings will still be there after the gate, pleasant and unpleasant ones.

Distraction, meditation, these just happen.

Is this "knowing" or seeing?

Keep looking directly into you experience without turning to thoughts or mental images.

Is there a self-image? Is there an 'I' experiencing and then distracting from unpleasant feelings? Can you find an I anywhere? Have a good look.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Today I enjoyed intercepting every thought with a whisper of "I" in it and replacing the "I" with "who": Who is typing right now? Who is answering Ghata's letter? Who is so carefully crafting sentences? Who is concerned about whether this is done correctly? Who wants to succeed?" And, if there was a sense of an agent, perceiving the thought/sensation experience of that agent, of the "I".

Sometimes while I am doing this there is a sense of clarity, freedom, lightness ... for some moments. Then, "Who is enjoying this lightness? Who fears the enjoyment? Who thinks this means that clear seeing is near? Who feels shame at thinking it is near?"

When I ask, simply, "what is 'I'?", it seems that each time I observe a set of sensations that corresponds to "I", a new set of sensations arises behind that set .. and then another, and then another ... after just a second or two, a sense of anger and confusion arises ... I've described it before ... the breathing becomes shallow, the eyelids flutter, constriction in the throat, I feel I am not getting enough oxygen ... then I take a deep breath or two ... the thought arises, "even though there is this sense of confusion, I can still observe. I can still ask about 'I'." As I continue to observe newly-arising I-sensations, new ones arise faster and faster until they all schmear together and finally it seems there is no sense of 'I' at all.

Distraction, meditation, these just happen.

Is this "knowing" or seeing?

This was a "knowing". I have not seen this.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

you are really dedicated :-)

Sometimes while I am doing this there is a sense of clarity, freedom, lightness ... for some moments. Then, "Who is enjoying this lightness? Who fears the enjoyment? Who thinks this means that clear seeing is near? Who feels shame at thinking it is near?"

Lovely :-).

When this sense of clarity, freedom or lightness come back, let it be there, rest in it and let happen what wants to happen.

Thoughts will happen as well. That's fine. They try to grasp and explain and they can't.

When I ask, simply, "what is 'I'?"

I suggest that you exchange this question. It implies that there is an I. So far your findings have been: There is no I.

Instead ask: "There is no I" - is it true?


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

My enthusiasm for this process is waning somewhat :-( When I read GG, I had the impression that the dialogs took place over the course of a few days, so my expectation was that if this was going to work, it was going to work in a few days. Then, I did take a look at a dialog you had with someone just this past fall, and saw that it took 2 or 3 months and that the person did pass through the gate eventually. It does energize me when you praise me for being dedicated and seeing well.

So far your findings have been: There is no I.

Yes. And there is still a sense of there being an "I". For example, although I studied the experience of turning my hand back and forth, and saw that it could happen without any preceding thought of "I will turn my hand", and also saw that even when I had such a thought it didn't predict when the hand would actually turn -- even so, I still go through my day with this sense that I am making things happen. Like, even just now, I took a deep breath, and there was a whisper of a thought, "I was feeling a little deprived of oxygen, so I took a deep breath." And there was belief in, or identification with, that thought.

Because this sense of "I" remains, I feel drawn to studying it in more detail. I observed before that it seems to be a cloud of wordless thought plus a constriction in the throat/chest. But I wonder if it is something more, because I still on some level believe that I am a doer and a thinker.

When this sense of clarity, freedom or lightness come back, let it be there, rest in it and let happen what wants to happen.

During a work day, I typically look at my experience during the hour I am commuting to work and the hour I am returning home. Today I asked "who is thinking/doing XXX?" only when the sense of "I" was quite distinct. The rest of the time I just experienced, and frequently took delight in what I experienced.

I am curious about what is happening when I am absorbed in thought--when I feel like I am the thinker. When I am thinking something over. How is that different from just observing thoughts arising and passing? This is something I've been curious about for a long time. As I waited for the bus today, I tried to observe the transition between the two ways of being. And I tried to see if I could observe myself being absorbed in thought. I don't know if I can. As soon as I began trying, I felt angry and resistant.

Instead ask: "There is no I" - is it true?

I shorten this to "No I?". I ask this of myself right now. There was no sense of "I" in that moment. Hmmm.
I then spent maybe a minute just experiencing. Pleasant sound of airplane overhead, coolness of air in my nasal passages, the sight of my partner's T-shirts stacked on the shelf in front of me, mild bodily discomfort. Then, a vague sense of "I" arises. I then ask, "No I?" and the sense disappears.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

My enthusiasm for this process is waning somewhat :-( When I read GG, I had the impression that the dialogs took place over the course of a few days, so my expectation was that if this was going to work, it was going to work in a few days. Then, I did take a look at a dialog you had with someone just this past fall, and saw that it took 2 or 3 months and that the person did pass through the gate eventually.

I hear your frustration. If you expected so see through the Illusion of self within a few day, it must be very disappointing to not be finished yet.

Everybody is unique and the processes are very unique as well.

Is it possible to feel the frustration and disappointment, be with it as part of what is happening?
And to trust that the process is proceeding in a way that is just perfect for you?

I am curious about what is happening when I am absorbed in thought--when I feel like I am the thinker. When I am thinking something over. How is that different from just observing thoughts arising and passing? This is something I've been curious about for a long time. As I waited for the bus today, I tried to observe the transition between the two ways of being. And I tried to see if I could observe myself being absorbed in thought. I don't know if I can. As soon as I began trying, I felt angry and resistant.

Yes, all kind of feelings can come up during this process. What you are trying to do can be compared to sitting in a cinema, watching a great movie and being absorbed into it, feeling with the person appearing on the screen and at the same time watching being absorbed.

Can it be done? Or is the identification with the action not broken by the very process of watching the identification?

The rest of the time I just experienced, and frequently took delight in what I experienced.

´

Turning to the direct sensory experience is the way to go. And it IS delightful!

Thinking about the issue will not help.

So far your findings have been: There is no I.

Yes.... --- even so, I still go through my day with this sense that I am making things happen. Like, even just now, I took a deep breath, and there was a whisper of a thought, "I was feeling a little deprived of oxygen, so I took a deep breath." And there was belief in, or identification with, that thought.

Great seeing. First a deep breath occured. And afterwards a thought claims it saying: "I was feeling a little deprived of oxygen, so I took a deep breath."

Going through the day, watch how thoughts claim something after you did it, how they "I-ify" everything. Mounting the bus - a thought says "I climbed the bus". Sitting down - a thought says "I sat down".

Does the thought I point to something that actually exists, like water for example? Is there any I in any physical form or shape?

Share what you find.


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Is it possible to feel the frustration and disappointment, be with it as part of what is happening?
And to trust that the process is proceeding in a way that is just perfect for you?

This helped me through the day.

I tried to see if I could observe myself being absorbed in thought. I don't know if I can. As soon as I began trying, I felt angry and resistant.

Can it be done? Or is the identification with the action not broken by the very process of watching the identification?

I'm not sure. It sort of seems like it can be done. For example, right now I'm composing this post, and I seem to be observing myself doing so. Then, I stopped to think about what to do after I'm done, and I seemed also able to observe that, though less clearly. Perhaps I was rapidly alternating between being absorbed in thought and observing.

The rest of the time I just experienced, and frequently took delight in what I experienced.

´
Turning to the direct sensory experience is the way to go. And it IS delightful!

This is mostly what I practiced today -- allowing the attention to be wide, rather than focusing it on the lingering sense of "I" and trying to notice what it is composed of.

It is fun when sensations and thoughts just come and go and aren't sticky.

I noticed unpleasant thoughts and sensations arise. I noticed that when I felt certain unpleasant sensation-thought combinations, the idea arose that things weren't going well for me in the "looking" department. This happened frequently. I observed that as another thought, and remembered how the watermelon exercise showed me how completely divorced from reality a thought can be.

Does the thought I point to something that actually exists, like water for example? Is there any I in any physical form or shape?

Sometimes the thought "I" points to the physical body. "She hit me." "I got on the bus". But other times it doesn't: "I think ...", "I want ..." Even the thought, "my hand", suggests that "I" is not the physical body.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

It is fun when sensations and thoughts just come and go and aren't sticky.

It is indeed :-).

I noticed unpleasant thoughts and sensations arise. I noticed that when I felt certain unpleasant sensation-thought combinations, the idea arose that things weren't going well for me in the "looking" department. This happened frequently. I observed that as another thought, and remembered how the watermelon exercise showed me how completely divorced from reality a thought can be.

In fact it is the other way round from what this thought tells you. When even unpleasant sensation-thought combinations can come and go, that is REALLY good.

For example, right now I'm composing this post, and I seem to be observing myself doing so.

Show me this I that is observing what you are doing. Where do you find it in your direct experience?


Warm regards - Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Today I have really enjoyed experiencing sensations and thoughts arise and pass away. It's especially satisfying when it happens with all the different flavors of anger: irritation, judgment, defensiveness. It's satisfying because suffering has ensued in the past when there has been clinging to those emotions, and I'm happy to not be suffering. It also kind of feels like a fun video game. It seems to take some effort, but the effort is enjoyable.

I just now edited my paragraph to remove a few instances of "I" from it, because I didn't want you to come back and say, "Show me this I that is letting go of thoughts and sensations. Show me the I that feels satisfied." :-)

I am welcoming situations that trigger the "I" to defend itself, because I want to practice allowing the resulting sensations.

As I write this, the thought arises, "This is not LU practice. Ghata is going to tell me that I'm doing it wrong."

For example, right now I'm composing this post, and I seem to be observing myself doing so.

Show me this I that is observing what you are doing. Where do you find it in your direct experience?

I'm sitting next to my partner, and she's reading a book. For the past five minutes I've tried over and over again to address your question, and each time I do, I find strong irritation arising. The irritation seems to be targeted at my partner and the (very small) noises she is making.

OK, I'll just power through the irritation. When I think the thought, "I seem to be observing myself," simultaneous to the word "I" is a slight constricting in the back of the throat and other places in the head, and the attention goes somewhat to that sensation.

Here is an instance where an unpleasant emotion (irritation) is sticking powerfully!

Best,
Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

it was so lovely to read your answer :-).

I just now edited my paragraph to remove a few instances of "I" from it, because I didn't want you to come back and say, "Show me this I that is letting go of thoughts and sensations. Show me the I that feels satisfied." :-)

Sweet. Language is a difficulty. Of course I use pronouns as well because that is how language is constructed. The Buddha did it as well. When I am not sure whether you use the I because of identification or just in the way we normally speak, I ask.

Today I have really enjoyed experiencing sensations and thoughts arise and pass away. It's especially satisfying when it happens with all the different flavors of anger: irritation, judgment, defensiveness. It's satisfying because suffering has ensued in the past when there has been clinging to those emotions, and I'm happy to not be suffering. It also kind of feels like a fun video game. It seems to take some effort, but the effort is enjoyable.

This is so beautiful to hear :-). Yes, suffering comes from clinging to emotions. Pushing them away would be the other side of the coin, the negative form of clinging so to speak.

I am welcoming situations that trigger the "I" to defend itself, because I want to practice allowing the resulting sensations.

As I write this, the thought arises, "This is not LU practice. Ghata is going to tell me that I'm doing it wrong."

*Smile. No, she is not. Well done!

OK, I'll just power through the irritation. When I think the thought, "I seem to be observing myself," simultaneous to the word "I" is a slight constricting in the back of the throat and other places in the head, and the attention goes somewhat to that sensation.

Here is an instance where an unpleasant emotion (irritation) is sticking powerfully!

Yes. Emotions that stick can come back. Can that just be seen as well without sticking to the sticking?


Let thoughts and sensation again just be there the way you described earlier. In that same mode, have another look.
Can a separate entity "I" be perceived anywhere? Only look at what you can experience directly.

Yes, thoughts will be there, sensations will be there. Other than that, is there a separate entity to be found that has the experience or controls the experience?

Write what feels true.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Today was a quiet Saturday. In the late afternoon, a vaguely unpleasant emotion that I might call boredom or "blah" arose and stuck around for several hours. There was more identification with that emotion than with the anger emotions. I noticed the aversion and the thoughts that came along with the emotion, like, "This emotion means that your life isn't going well, it means there is something wrong with you." I tried to just be OK with the "blah", the unpleasantness, the thoughts, the aversion.

Let thoughts and sensation again just be there the way you described earlier. In that same mode, have another look.
Can a separate entity "I" be perceived anywhere? Only look at what you can experience directly.

Yes, thoughts will be there, sensations will be there. Other than that, is there a separate entity to be found that has the experience or controls the experience?

I just spent 5 or 10 minutes sitting and allowing thoughts and sensations. For a couple minutes I got absorbed in a story about something that is happening in my life, and forgot about the exercise. During that time, there was a sense of an "I" that the story was happening to, but because I'd forgotten about the exercise, I didn't look to see if it was a separate entity that could be perceived. The rest of the time, there was no sense of "I", and certainly no separate entity to be found. There was no sense of an entity that was making the experience happen. Just sensations and thoughts arising.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

Today was a quiet Saturday. In the late afternoon, a vaguely unpleasant emotion that I might call boredom or "blah" arose and stuck around for several hours. There was more identification with that emotion than with the anger emotions. I noticed the aversion and the thoughts that came along with the emotion, like, "This emotion means that your life isn't going well, it means there is something wrong with you." I tried to just be OK with the "blah", the unpleasantness, the thoughts, the aversion.

Yes, we humans are hardwired for pleasure. In fact, thoughts and emotions are just passing through effortlessly, if we let them. It is a bit like saying: "Today it is raining, that means something is wrong with me".

I didn't look to see if it was a separate entity that could be perceived. The rest of the time, there was no sense of "I", and certainly no separate entity to be found. There was no sense of an entity that was making the experience happen. Just sensations and thoughts arising.

Now have a thorough and long look whether a separate entity, I, self, a small Terry experiencing and controlling everything can be found. Also, when the sense of self comes up, investigate. Is there a separate I-entity in there?

Does a separate entity 'I' exist?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

Before I read what you wrote while I was asleep last night, I want to relate my recent experience. It isn't extraordinary, but I want to relate it without being influenced by your post.

First, I want to share that there was resistance to going to the LU forum this morning. When I began dialoging with you, there was eagerness each morning, but not this morning. I was drawn instead to working on a computer project first.

I awoke this morning, as I almost always do, with an unpleasant tangle of fear thoughts/sensations. Attention always dispels them, but only if I am sitting, not if I am lying down. I sat up in bed. Thoughts and sensations arose and passed away. Each time there was awareness of suffering, a sense of "I" and a story about "I" was apparent, and then attention shifted outside of that story to see it as thought+sensation. Stories about "I" continued to arise, including stories like, "Ah, it is good that I am able to disembed from the stories and observe them as thought+sensation!" As usual in my morning meditation, the unpleasantness that was present upon awakening diminished over time.

Now I read your post. You have given me two tasks:

1. have a thorough and long look whether a separate entity, I, self, a small Terry experiencing and controlling everything can be found

2. when the sense of self comes up, investigate. Is there a separate I-entity in there?

The first, I don't quite know how to do. I don't know where to look, or what to look for. Although my perspective on my experience still includes a small Terry experiencing and controlling everything (for example there is a sense now that "I" am writing), when I look, there obviously is nothing there but thought+sensation. Thought+sensation is all that can be perceived; I have been taught this but it is also apparent from long experience; each time I look, that is all that is noticed. What would a small Terry look like? If it were a physical entity (a certain bodily organ, for example), I would not be able to observe it through reflection.

The second task, "when the sense of self comes up, investigate," I do know how to do. The sense of self arises repeatedly, all the time, and it is interesting to see what it might be composed of. Sometimes it includes a sensation at the back of the throat. Sometimes in the head, sometimes in the chest. It is interesting to see the sensations in detail, their character and duration, and to try to observe the associated thoughts. And to see what my experience is as the investigation proceeds: does the sense of self remain during investigation? Is there a sense of an investigator? Does an infinite series of selfs arise, each trying to investigate the previous one? What happens after that?

I am aware of a hope that such continued investigation might finally make the illusion apparent.

I plan to sit later today and have a "thorough and long look".