The Gate

Ok thanks for that Thom,

Ok so here are some summary questions. Answer them all, or if that's too much, just do a few at a time. Please answer these as fully as you can and just from the immediate experience, spontaneously and in your own words, rather from anything learned:-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe this fully as you see it now please Thom.
 
3) Can you try to describe how is it feeling to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Please describe, as best you can, even if gropingly, how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Are you responsible for anything? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would be grateful if you could give one or two practical examples from your ordinary everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!).

6) Is there anything you would like to add?

I look forward to hearing from you on these.

Cheers

Mark

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Absolutely not. There wasn't even the experience of a separate self ever, only the idea.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe this fully as you see it now please Thom.

i don't know. Any attempt to describe it using words (objects, thoughts) gets nowhere near.
 

3) Can you try to describe how is it feeling to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The feeling hasn't changed much but the feelings have lost all importance, and so the idea of pain as something that is suffered by someone now seems ridiculous.
 

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

Realising that the beliefs held were what was stopping the looking from happening. Once the beliefs were seen as thoughts the whole delusion of separation came crashing down in no time at all.
 

5) Please describe, as best you can, even if gropingly, how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Are you responsible for anything? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would be grateful if you could give one or two practical examples from your ordinary everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!).

Nothing happens outside of thought. There's nothing to describe.

6) Is there anything you would like to add?

Thankyou.

Thank you too, Thom,

That's great, but could you try to give a little more detail in answer to Question 2 please?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe this fully as you see it now please Thom.

And also in Question 5 (don't forget there are several parts to this question, and a request for a description of an 'choice example' from everyday life).

5) Please describe, as best you can, even if gropingly, how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens. Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Are you responsible for anything? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would be grateful if you could give one or two practical examples from your ordinary everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!).

Cheers

Mark

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe this fully as you see it now please Thom.

It seems to start with the parents, telling the child that it is an individual and has a task to complete in order to live up to what is 'expected' of it. It is appears to be perpetuated by society which needs it to be afraid of and to rejoice in the same things in order for the whole thing to appear cohesive. It all comes crashing down when it puts aside the views given and focuses only on what exists in it's current experience.

5) Please describe, as best you can, even if gropingly, how deciding, intending, choosing and controlling events in Life happens.

Deciding, intending, and choosing are all objects created by the mind, but they are observations and not events. Observations happen because observing is the functionality of awareness and before the arising of awareness objects such as the mind, the body or the world that sustains it there was always awareness.

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?

No, but up until recently there was the delusion that this was what was going on.

Do you make anything happen?

No.

Are you responsible for anything?

No.

Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would be grateful if you could give one or two practical examples from your ordinary everyday life (even if there is no real 'you'!)

Things happen, then the mind appears a bit later and tries to explain the happening. The body just does what it needs to do despite what the mind says. There is no choosing, only the idea of choosing. This truth manifests itself every time any person does something it did not intend to do.

I can 'choose' to go into the kitchen and prepare some food, but the sensation of cold on the feet and in the air propels the body back out of the kitchen in search of a jacket. The experience of choice in that moment is dwarfed by the experience of cold and the mind may well arise and say 'I want a jacket', but a moment ago it wanted some food and it didn't take much to knock it off course completely.

'We' - our actions and feelings - are completely dependent on everything else. There is no choice.

I could well have chosen not to respond to these questions because they don't make much sense to me and that thought arose more than once, but a response happened regardless of that, and the whole process was highly amusing to watch.

Hehe, great Thom,

Just one small question:-

before the arising of awareness objects such as the mind, the body or the world that sustains it there was always awareness.

Is this known (E) are assumed (T) as some kind of explanation? Could it be ok NOT to know how it all happens (I think we spoke about this in one of our dialogues)?

Warmly

Mark

There's no attempt to explain WHAT happens only THAT it all happens inside awareness; the knowing of objects and the attempts and failures to control them are known within awareness. It is a perquisite (before) of knowing.

There is no control, controller, or controlled. It's all just the idea of 'controlling' and awareness is a requirement before all ideas or objects can occur.

Hi Thom,

it all happens inside awareness

and

awareness is a requirement before all ideas or objects can occur.

These sound a bit like a teaching or concept or dogma from somewhere or other...? Check it out.
How is it known that awareness is a requirement for anything? How is that experienced right now? Can that be known?

How can it be known (E) that awareness even exists? Or is that too an assumption (T)?...How is it known in (E) that all is not just happening on its own?

Could everything just be happening, and any attempts to explain any of it be just bungled words and ideas?

Want to check this out?

Cheers

Mark

It does appear to all be happening on its own. No control, no controller, nothing to be controlled. Words can't explain it but they were asked for. How could any attempt to do so be anything other than a bungle?

:-)

Like you said the other day: "I don't know anything"
Certainly works here.

Ok leave it with me, and I'll letyou know if there are any questions from other guides.

Cheers

Mark

The first answer to that question about control was "I don't know" and it still seems the most appropriate.

Hi Thom

One guide has asked: "The question of awareness as some kind of thing or entity doesn't seem to be quite clear. Please ask whether he ever experiences awareness as anything distinct from whatever he is aware of."

Cheers

Mark

No I don't experience it as distinct, it is not a thing.