Am I typing this?

[czar7]

It's looking good to me. Do you feel anything has changed? Do you feel clear on what is the self?

Hello

There has been a few subtle instances where I've noticed things happening without me. It almost seems like i'm watching someone else. The task is performed, the "conditioned" responses still happen (thoughts, feelings, movements, *believed* to have been performed 1000s of times) but awareness is just a step back, seeing it all happen without effort.

A few occasions I've had the feeling that there's no way "I" could really do any of this. (Imagine) if I had to think everything out and make the "split-second" decisions. How??

I could chalk it all up to conditioning and say that I do exercise a bit of control-- but then how could I realistically change conditioning, when there's no evidence that anything is going to happen in any given moment, and I can't prove (or even now, see that it could be plausible).. that there is true continuity / control here.

For the self, it's seen as matrix of labels -- pictures, sounds, stories. It's an idea, which seems to show up in experience. He's both the narrator and the character in the story, and generally feels at least a basic level of control perhaps not destiny, but at least intention (e.g. I can't control the weather, but I can steer the rudder)

Thoughts arise telling me I've been looking for a change in experience, and now it's seen that this assumes there being anyone who can see through anything -- Who is there to know 'the truth' and to decide what should next be experienced?

So one sees the illusion for what it is, but can get caught up in it.

I tend to see this as the start rather than the end of the path. In the Buddhist model the next stage is desire/ill will, which points to the illusion still existing. Here, the illusion persisting is often called selfing.

I do not want to cut short this for you. We can explore further. Usually there is a felt change, even if no fireworks.

No problem, I'm happy to continue.

Take care

[Aragon]

So what would you like to discuss? Any ideas what is unclear?

One thing, which is usually beyond this inquiry, but stood out for me, is ,,,,, I believe you said something like, you know the chair exists outside of thought... did you say that? Do you still hold this as true? Can you explain this further?

Aragon

[czar7]

So what would you like to discuss? Any ideas what is unclear?

I guess the experience lately has been short periods of feeling 'separate' from the self, as if the self was just another character in a TV show, and there's just a witnessing, seeing it all flow. Then the self becomes real again, and the thoughts start churning.

One thing, which is usually beyond this inquiry, but stood out for me, is ,,,,, I believe you said something like, you know the chair exists outside of thought... did you say that? Do you still hold this as true? Can you explain this further?

Yes, I said things exist when not thinking of them. Sort of like saying my car is outside my house even when I'm not looking at it.

Now, I don't really know to say whether the chair exists or not. It's seen as color. It's felt when sitting...

I can see that chair is a label being applied by the mind.

[Aragon]

I have no questions on that...... hmmm not sure, what do you think about me asking you the final questions? The process is usually that you answer, I clarify any queries I have, then other guides have a look and query anything they see. It doesn't end even then, there's a whole load of inquiry opportunities post gate... what do you reckon?

[czar7]

I have no questions on that...... hmmm not sure, what do you think about me asking you the final questions? The process is usually that you answer, I clarify any queries I have, then other guides have a look and query anything they see. It doesn't end even then, there's a whole load of inquiry opportunities post gate... what do you reckon?

OK sure

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Let's see where this takes us! Take as much time as you need over this...


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer each question individually and with some detail. And make sure you provide some current examples from experience in questions 5.

Be well,

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi Aragon,

Sorry for the delay, I struggled a bit with the answers

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

I don't see evidence of me, but I don't see the absence of me, either.
I can see that 'me' is a construct, a collection of ideas. It's the idea of an idea ..there is no real me, for sure- only images, thoughts, emotions, and beliefs which point to the existence of me.
But then that seems like just another thought momentarily passing by.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the idea that I am a person, separate from 'other' 'things' around me. That I have qualities, personality, memory, preferences. I learn through experience, and I have free will to improve my situation. I can't control everything, but I can control me. I'm unique, but I'm not the only one, there are others..

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days

I'm not sure if I've seen it - I feel that I'm trying to understand more than anything. The difference I see is the experience of doubting some basic beliefs, but it all feels intellectual. There have been moments of 'noticing' as you mentioned earlier. Things are happening but there's no one there.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

You wrote some lines about noticing things happening (flowing), that seemed to push in the right direction

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Here all I can think of is the 'construct' of behavioral patterns, etc which belong to and dictate 'me' -- the thoughts, the story.

So decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all ideas-- things that me thinks he has. They are all concepts which presupposes the existence of a separate, sentient self.

What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I'm not sure what makes things happen, or how it all works.
There is a feeling that I'm not actually responsible for anything -- driving the car, walking into work -- I don't really feel like 'I'm' doing it.

Cheers

[Aragon]

Thanks Bill... I will come back to you on this soon!

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

I'd like us to delve more deeply into your relationship with this process. I'd like to ask you to be as honest as possible and write what's true for you, even if it feels stupid or intellectually wrong...

What do you think will happen when you 'see' through the illusory self? Is there a fear of disappearing, dissolving, losing 'identity' etc? Anything else? Fear maybe?

If this is it and you have seen, how would that be for you? Is there disappointment? If so, how come? What would need to happen to eradicate that disappointment? What should be different?

Is there anything you could add about the process and how things are now?

Write as in depth as you can

Many thanks,

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi there,

I'd like us to delve more deeply into your relationship with this process. I'd like to ask you to be as honest as possible and write what's true for you, even if it feels stupid or intellectually wrong...

Sure

What do you think will happen when you 'see' through the illusory self? Is there a fear of disappearing, dissolving, losing 'identity' etc? Anything else? Fear maybe?

Fear, disappointment, confusion, doubt.

When it was seen that there was no control here, fear was a strong reaction. "If I can't change anything, I'm hopeless!"

When I expected to see huge fireworks, a change in scenery, loss of conditioning, to gain a greater understanding, I was disappointed. Just thoughts, assuming that I was there.

When I looked at what was happening in experience, through the senses, they were tangible.

I'm intangible.

I am a thought momentarily passing by.

If this is it and you have seen, how would that be for you? Is there disappointment? If so, how come? What would need to happen to eradicate that disappointment? What should be different?

I suppose that would be just fine. It is what it is. I can't see how anything really needs to happen, and no way to make it happen.

So disappointment might occur, and it might not

Is there anything you could add about the process and how things are now?

Nope

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

I am about to sleep, then travel from China to the UK, so I will be out of touch for a while.

I believe you have seen.... but this is not obvious to, you so further exploration is probably warranted....

Can you look to actual experience as much as possible over the next few days... What is actual experience of disappointment, confusion, fear and so on? What is it that could be/own any if these experiences?

And when you say, "I am a thought momentarily passing by"...is that true? The 'I', the 'self' may be like that, but do you cease to exist when that thought is not present, when any thought is not present? Is there nothing between thoughts? Is there an singleness, a sense of be-ing?

I would suggest you stop measuring, stop analysing, stop quantifying. Life is happening. Can you just be? Allow watching to happen. See the flow, the beauty, without labels. Do you need to label anything, or does it all just happen anyway?

Stay with seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, feeling. Stay with sense experience before labelling.

See how you get on. Write what you find. Talk to you soon,

Aragon

[czar7]

Hi Aragon,

No problem, take your time

I believe you have seen.... but this is not obvious to, you so further exploration is probably warranted....

No, not obvious.

Can you look to actual experience as much as possible over the next few days... What is actual experience of disappointment, confusion, fear and so on? What is it that could be/own any if these experiences?

Ok I will do this.

When these emotions come up, I look at the actual experience and there's a physical sensation there. Last night, I had thoughts of dying, and there was a strong sense of fear there. I looked to the fear and followed it to a physical sensation.

I don't see anything that can be / own the experience.

And when you say, "I am a thought momentarily passing by"...is that true? The 'I', the 'self' may be like that, but do you cease to exist when that thought is not present, when any thought is not present? Is there nothing between thoughts? Is there an singleness, a sense of be-ing?

No, I am still here when thought is not present. There is a sense of being.

I would suggest you stop measuring, stop analysing, stop quantifying. Life is happening. Can you just be? Allow watching to happen. See the flow, the beauty, without labels. Do you need to label anything, or does it all just happen anyway?

Yes, I am noticing the measuring, quantifying -- the labels are constant. I would like to just be and allow the watching to happen.

Stay with seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, feeling. Stay with sense experience before labelling.

Ok I'll try to do this and report back

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Good work... let's continue on with this.... I am going to ask more questions but please bear in mind I am trying to point you towards experience, not intellectual answers....


To go back to fear, can you tell me:

What would be the worst possible thing happening if there was no YOU that has a free will to improve your situation or could control yourself?


Also, you mention death. What is actual experience of death? Then...

Can you recontact that strong sense of fear? You could intone 'One day I am going to die.' Yes the fear is a physical sensation. Is there a you' and 'fear', or just 'fear'? Can you ask the fear, so to speak, what are you trying to protect? What comes up?

No, I am still here when thought is not present. There is a sense of being.

Be the 'be-ing', as much as you can.

Yes, I am noticing the measuring, quantifying -- the labels are constant. I would like to just be and allow the watching to happen.

Great. The more the labels are seen, the more be-ing will just happen. But what is it that wants just to be and allow the watching to happen?

Stay with seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching, feeling. Stay with sense experience before labelling.

Ok I'll try to do this and report back

Look forward to it!

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Bill,

Here is an idea for you! How about I pass you over to another guide. Maybe another approach would help?

There is no pressure on you to do this but it could be just what you need. She is very experienced and aware of this 'conversation' and has offered....

It's up to you? Let me know your thoughts!


Aragon

[czar7]

Hello, that would be fine, thanks!