Staying awake

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

Thanks for the message. Ok, so the feeling or sense of just watching is the place I most find the "i". So when I say "less first person" actually what I am experiencing is just a lack of obvious feeling or thought. It feels like a blank, I am not sure if that's any less of a story than the obvious "I" stuff. I questioned the curiosity idea because I assumed that the goal is to strip away thinking, but I guess that's not possible. The screen I talked of is not real, it's a way for me to say that this input goes to a place and gets watched by my conscious mind.

The "feeling of seeing" is trying to label the process of watching me watching. I try and jump from seeing the input, to then "see" when the label arrives. I don't see it, but when I am trying that I experience I kind of hold on thought or feeling, and the focus falls on just finding this place. Don't know if that's of worth or not.

Let me try and untangle the seeing/ flowing question. I see people, a street, input of forms that are quickly labelled. I try and pull back from labelling, so they just become shapes and colours and forms. That's when I get the blank feeling as I guess I am trying to turn off labelling and the best I can do is just get his blankness.

So let me try again. If I just look. I suppose the first thing I notice after about ten minutes is how often I have stopped looking and am actualy focused on thoughts that mean have not actually seen what was in front of me most of the time on the street.

So two things I notice. I keep losing focus, and my eyes literally defocus and play a movie in my head, almost clearly a lot. When I come back to looking at the world i get flashes of just how big it is, how... Gosh hard to put into words. I suppose it's like noticing it for the first time. It gets a sense of not seen beforeness, the moment a thought jumps in that goes and leads to making a story about whatever it is the trigger made me think of.
There are moments when the only way to describe it is to say, there is an expanded sense of self. I know the self is what I am trying to see past, but it feels like the interior world moves from being the whole world, to seeing how big the world is. It feels vast. My mind keeps making up stories about the people I am watching though or jumping off on tangents.

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

I questioned the curiosity idea because I assumed that the goal is to strip away thinking, but I guess that's not possible. The screen I talked of is not real, it's a way for me to say that this input goes to a place and gets watched by my conscious mind.

The goal here is to directly experience everything that can be experienced through your 5 senses and being aware of your thoughts. It’s not about stripping away thoughts – which isn’t possible - or trying to change what happens or how it is experienced. Here it is about distinguishing what is happening. Are you thinking this or are you seeing this?

I wonder where the place is, the "Input" is going to to? Can you actually see it? If not, it is a thought

I try and jump from seeing the input, to then "see" when the label arrives. I don't see it, but when I am trying that I experience I kind of hold on thought or feeling, and the focus falls on just finding this place.

Experiencing directly is actually the most simple thing you can do - which makes it so darn hard. You don’t have to strain yourself for doing that.

What color are your socks? Is it difficult to find out? No, you just look and know it. That is direct experience.

Let me try and untangle the seeing/ flowing question. I see people, a street, input of forms that are quickly labelled. I try and pull back from labelling, so they just become shapes and colours and forms. That's when I get the blank feeling as I guess I am trying to turn off labelling and the best I can do is just get his blankness.

It is about distinguishing, “this is seeing”, “these are thoughts”. If it’s labeling(thinking) – fine. If it’s seeing – fine. The only thing that matters is that you are clear about what is going on.

It is not about reaching a special state, blankness or non-blankness.



I suppose the first thing I notice after about ten minutes

That again is what we are after here. “I suppose I notice”. Why suppose? Find out what you really notice. The thought stories are clouding the perception of what IS.

Even if you don’t like it, curiosity would be a good attitude to actually SEE what happens.

On your walk look at everything as if you are a new-to-town tourist. Now, what do you SEE? Then take one thing like a house or tree. When looking, is there a border between what you see and the one who sees? Is there really something (the seen) flowing into something else (the seer)?




When I come back to looking at the world i get flashes of just how big it is, how... Gosh hard to put into words. I suppose it's like noticing it for the first time. It gets a sense of not seen beforeness, the moment a thought jumps in that goes and leads to making a story about whatever it is the trigger made me think of.

 it feels like the interior world moves from being the whole world, to seeing how big the world is.

I am not sure how you meant “how big it is”. If you are saying, that there is no inside any longer, just “being the whole world”, you are on the right track.

Please use quotations again when answering. That way it’s much easier to follow. Thank you.


With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

The goal here is to directly experience everything that can be experienced through your 5 senses and being aware of your thoughts. It’s not about stripping away thoughts – which isn’t possible - or trying to change what happens or how it is experienced. Here it is about distinguishing what is happening. Are you thinking this or are you seeing this?

Ok. That's clear. Just distinguish between sense and thoughts. What happens when you do this?

I wonder where the place is, the "Input" is going to to? Can you actually see it? If not, it is a thought

I can't see it, so its a thought.

Experiencing directly is actually the most simple thing you can do - which makes it so darn hard. You don’t have to strain yourself for doing that.

I am finding this very hard. I do think there is a result or a goal. I am trying to find the best way to get there. I know that the instruction to "just look" is the key but from my last post i thought I had moved toward that. Not so sure now, and that feels frustrating and makes me try harder.

It is not about reaching a special state, blankness or non-blankness.

Ok, I did think that it would feel a certain way - not blank or not blank - but just different to how looking on my normal day feels. It did actually feel different in that I am very aware of detail of what I am seeing. That makes me aware of what I hear, then see. The detail itself is absorbing of all attention and there are very few stories or thoughts taking place.

do you distinguish between awareness and thought? As in you need to be aware to see, but that thought is not about processing input but trying to understand the input in terms of the "I"?

Even if you don’t like it, curiosity would be a good attitude to actually SEE what happens.

The fact that you capitalise SEE is what makes me think that there is a special form of seeing.

On your walk look at everything as if you are a new-to-town tourist. Now, what do you SEE? Then take one thing like a house or tree. When looking, is there a border between what you see and the one who sees?

It did feel like i was a new-to-town person! I saw details of people's skin. There eye colour. The speed of their walking. The details made it feel new and fresh as if I was noticing for the first time. Is this what you mean by SEE? The second part of the question I say, no, there is what I see. The outside. And I can't find a "the one who sees" so I don't see a border. Is that what you mean? This is where I feel I might be not getting it.

Is there really something (the seen) flowing into something else (the seer)?

Don't understand this then. Do you mean is there a visual input (the seen) that has to be processed by my brain (the seer) and one flows into the other? Or do you mean when I distinguish seeing, a person or house or whatever it is, that... I don't know. Just feel lost now, not sure how to ask without going round in a circle.

I am not sure how you meant “how big it is”. If you are saying, that there is no inside any longer, just “being the whole world”, you are on the right track.

Yes. The inside awareness is not able to be aware of "me" and at the same time the detail of what I am seeing or hearing. So i would describe it as there isn't an "inside" at that moment, as there is no attention to remember there even is an inside.

Wow. This is really frustrating.

[Ghata]

Hy Cyberogue,

Just distinguish between sense and thoughts. What happens when you do this?

You can see clearly what is actually “there” and what is thought. And then you know the answer to the question:
Is the self actually there or is it just a thought.

I am finding this very hard. I do think there is a result or a goal.

The goal is to realize that what you consider to be you doesn’t exist as an entity.

Ok, I did think that it would feel a certain way - not blank or not blank - but just different to how looking on my normal day feels. It did actually feel different in that I am very aware of detail of what I am seeing. That makes me aware of what I hear, then see. The detail itself is absorbing of all attention and there are very few stories or thoughts taking place.

Yes, when you see, hear, smell…directly, the thought stories don't cloud the view on reality so much.

The fact that you capitalise SEE is what makes me think that there is a special form of seeing.

No, there isn’t. It is just seeing, listening, feeling….

do you distinguish between awareness and thought? As in you need to be aware to see, but that thought is not about processing input but trying to understand the input in terms of the "I"?

Yes. To have any experience at all, you need to be conscious or aware. It can be the experience of seeing, hearing, feeling…or a thought.

It did feel like i was a new-to-town person! I saw details of people's skin. There eye colour. The speed of their walking. The details made it feel new and fresh as if I was noticing for the first time. Is this what you mean by SEE? The second part of the question I say, no, there is what I see. The outside. And I can't find a "the one who sees" so I don't see a border. The second part of the question I say, no, there is what I see. The outside. And I can't find a "the one who sees" so I don't see a border.

Yes, this is seeing :-). You ARE getting it. This is exactly what I mean. There is not more to it. The seer isn’t there. There is no you who is doing an action called „seeing“.

Don't understand this then. Do you mean is there a visual input (the seen) that has to be processed by my brain (the seer) and one flows into the other? Or do you mean when I distinguish seeing, a person or house or whatever it is, that... I don't know. Just feel lost now, not sure how to ask without going round in a circle.

Forget it. The flowing thing was a quote from your post further above.
There is no visual input flowing anywhere. Look at the computer. It is „just there“, isn’t it.

The inside awareness is not able to be aware of "me" and at the same time the detail of what I am seeing or hearing. So i would describe it as there isn't an "inside" at that moment, as there is no attention to remember there even is an inside.

Is there an I seeing?

Wow. This is really frustrating.

Sorry :-).

With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Yes, this is seeing :-). You ARE getting it. This is exactly what I mean. There is not more to it. The seer isn’t there. There is no you who is doing an action called „seeing“.

Excellent! Yay!

Is there an I seeing?

Uh. I feel like you keep asking me this, and not sure if get the semantics. Is there an "I" seeing? No. There is seeing. There is the consciousness that is present for seeing to happen. That consciousness is labelled as "I" in my thoughts. So there is a thought of "I" that is assigned the fact that I can see. This gets semantic though. I feel like i can say, the awareness that you need to see has been given the label "I". The problem is not that the awareness is not real, but that the "I" is a much bigger story than just something that sees or hears. It has a lot attached to it story wise, and that whole world of story is not what is seeing. So getting back to is there an "I" seeing? No, not when it means that all-the-stories-put-together-as-thoughts-and-called-I is doing the seeing.

It feels like the idea of "I" is like a short-hand for saying all the things that being conscious can do, and can think about, just bundled under a banner for convenience.

b

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

Is there an "I" seeing? No. There is seeing.

Exactly :-)

I feel like i can say,

Please, don't go back to that one now.

the awareness that you need to see has been given the label "I"

Look again and simply state what you find. Is awareness called "I"?
In the moment when you SEE, is there awareness separate from the seeing?

So getting back to is there an "I" seeing? No, not when it means that all-the-stories-put-together-as-thoughts-and-called-I is doing the seeing.

:-).

Is there any ‘you’ in any physical form or shape?


With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

I am getting on plane to Kenya, back on Wednesday morning. Not sure if it when I will get internet. Will post when I do.

Cyber

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

Fine. Stay safe.


With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

I am back from Kenya for a brief hello and then off again. Landed in UK, but getting on a plane tomorrow for USA. We are going to spend Thanksgiving with the family in Virginia. I am leaving my computer behind so I will be out of reach until the 2nd of December. Looking forward to picking up then.


Cyber

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

thank you for your message.

Have a safe journey. I am also looking forward to you returning, for it looked like you weren't all that far from seeing when you left.

With love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

I am back. I leave for South Africa tomorrow, but I want to keep our daily practice going as i do have internet there, and am keen to focus myself on a daily practice.
Its been a strange time. My father died this weekend, so that is why i am flying back to be with my mom.
I think death strips away a lot of stuff, especially unimportant stuff, so maybe it will help with seeing.

I have been wanting to ask, what if I was blind? what is the word you would use to "see" differently? I think literal sight gets in the way a lot of the semantics of what is seen.

B

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

great to have you back :-)

I am so sorry to hear that you lost your father. How are you feeling? And yes, death is a great eye opener.

Why not start straight away and brush up on what you already know?

I have been wanting to ask, what if I was blind?

What/who is saying this?

As long as you can read the signs on the airport, hear the announcement for your flight, touch your boarding card and smell and taste the food your mom cooks, you are good enough.

No need to write another chapter about the guy who failed.

Safe journey!
With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

Thanks for the message. I know semantics are important but my question is about a good way to point towards seeing more clearly, and if the person is literally blind, is focussing on hearing or another sense the key to being present and seeing what is present?

What/who is saying this?

The person defined by the "I", a fiction, but that's what is asking.

Cyber

[Ghata]

Hi Cyberogue,

if the person is literally blind, is focussing on hearing or another sense the key to being present and seeing what is present?

Oh, I didn't get that you are blind. Are you? Or is this a question out of interest? If it is - I actually would have to ask the person how they experience the world and go from there.

What/who is saying this?

The person defined by the "I", a fiction, but that's what is asking.

Here is my question for the boring hours around a flight, cueing up for security, waiting for boarding, sitting on a long flight:

Are you sure the 'I' is a fiction? Get clear about it.

Scan the whole body again and find out, whether there is a person somewhere inside or outside that can be seen or touched , heard, smelled or tasted. Search for the person or avatar that asked this question. What does this person look like?

Look for it like you are looking for your gate. Try to touch it like you touch your suitcase. Nothing mysterious about it. It either will be there and you can perceive it with your five senses or not. If you can't perceive it with your five senses, it is a mental image, a fantasy that exists as much as a cup of coffee you think of.

With much love,
Ghata

[Cyberogue]

Hi Ghata,

It was just a question in someone who literally was blind, which I am not. But for me I guess I understand a lot through sight but the language can also trap one into ways of thinking.

When I search I cannot find anything but thoughts that lead to thoughts. In understanding the confusion is between the sense of being conscious or awake, in that I am aware of awareness but it cannot be more than just aware. There is no total experience of awareness, only moments of focused awareness that come from different sensory input. . There is the direct experience that input is coming in, but understanding all the collected input as an "I" is where the sense of self disappears. There is just collections of input.