The Gate

Feelings are stickier than thoughts

Hey Adam

Yes, it is mind preference, but uncomfortable settings, or periods of work, for example still has mindfulness there. But its easier to slip into delusion from anger or stress or frustration. In a peaceful setting, i am more prone to have a deeper look and have an insight. When mindfulness is working in my life under stressful circumstances, it seems to keep it moving, but never really sees much insight, it just accepts, slows thoughts down. And trys to peel away the storys that make me angry. Or make new ones that help me deal with the anger. I have realized that arguing with what is causes me too suffer. When i sit in silence and just breathe sometimes no thoughts come up. And i am always thinking, so it feels different, but really, how do i question if im just focused on breathing, where does the creativity come in, forcing it dont feel right. How do i question when i am merely breathing?

Do you make questioning happen – or does questioning just happen? Is there a plan there before you start looking – ‘ok Im going to look right now’!
Is there a ‘need’ to question when breathing happens? What is wrong with right now outside of thought?

Idk how you split the mirror from the reflection, but i gather you do it quickly, before thought shows up

Are thoughts not part of what is? Do you assume that Buddha didn’t think? Is there an assumption here that thoughts will vanish? Stop? Stay positive and blissful? That you will never get angry again? What would want that? Is that thought again creating story? Wanting something other than what is?

Feelings are stickier than thoughts

Can you explain please? Do you mean anger here? If so watch it unfold. Notice if you bring it, control it or send it away in any way? Is it yours? Do you own this anger? Does it come and go as it will? Is there story attached? Lots? A narrative of thoughts? Can you find a ‘you’ who is angry?
What do you notice?
Hugs Sarah xxx

I think i make questioning happen, and sometimes questioning just arises from some occurence or realization or exposure to something, these are usually the better questions.

Yes, there is usually a deliberate effort to look in such a way, i mean there is always obsservation going on, but not always a deeper looking, and that is what i try to do when i meditate. I. Try to force questions and seek answers but i dont know what questions to ask or answers to seek, perhaps it is the ego, but it comes from a genuine desire to know truth.

There is nothing wrong with simply breathing outside of thought, but it is during the times in which i sit that i set aside for deep inquiry, and frustration sets in where there is nothing to question or nothing comes to mind of any significance.

Thoughts are part of what is, no i am not assuming Buddha didn't think, what i am referring to is the seeing that occurs without concepts or labels. Seeing things as they are.i do not have the assumption thoughts will stop or stay blissful, but i do seem to be belittling thought. Making it less important in the whole of experience, unless it be a revealatory thought revealing something unknown to me.

I mean feelings seem to have a staying power that lingers longer than a thought, im talking about all feelings in general but anger especially, or perhaps anger doesn't stay longer then others its just more unpleasant and therefore more noticed.
Reading the questions about anger you posted, my answer is that i have been possesive of anger, and its the small self that identifys with it for years(delusion). More importantly, and true it seems, is that i have no control of when anger comes and goes, it is triggered by the interaction of circumstance,preferance, and expectation, it is energy, it could be held in or channelled into action, but it will stay and run its course regardless of my response or reaction to it, some actions seem to suffocate it quicker while others feed it. It is not i that is angry, it is the illusion of I, and thoughts that are angry, or any emotion for that matter.

Hope to her from you soon :)
Hugz

Sorry Im late posting Adam - for some reason I couldn't reply! Now I can! LOL

I think i make questioning happen, and sometimes questioning just arises from some occurence or realization or exposure to something, these are usually the better questions.

OK – look closely at the process of making questioning happen – write down exactly how you do it? Where do the questions come from? How do you bring them? Did you plan them before you brought them into fruition? How did you create them in the first place? Where is the ‘you’ that did this?

Yes, there is usually a deliberate effort to look in such a way, i mean there is always obsservation going on, but not always a deeper looking, and that is what i try to do when i meditate.

So here – are you in control of looking and deeper looking?

There is nothing wrong with simply breathing outside of thought, but it is during the times in which i sit that i set aside for deep inquiry, and frustration sets in where there is nothing to question or nothing comes to mind of any significance.

Is that thought that’s frustrated? Thoughts perpetually wanting something other than what is?

I do not have the assumption thoughts will stop or stay blissful, but i do seem to be belittling thought. Making it less important in the whole of experience, unless it be a revealatory thought revealing something unknown to me.

Think of it as just noticing thought rather than belittling. No one is saying thoughts don’t matter – all we do here is look – any thoughts that are tacked on after are just that – thought.

Reading the questions about anger you posted, my answer is that i have been possesive of anger, and its the small self that identifys with it for years(delusion). More importantly, and true it seems, is that i have no control of when anger comes and goes, it is triggered by the interaction of circumstance,preferance, and expectation, it is energy, it could be held in or channelled into action, but it will stay and run its course regardless of my response or reaction to it, some actions seem to suffocate it quicker while others feed it. It is not i that is angry, it is the illusion of I, and thoughts that are angry, or any emotion for that matter.

Lovely noticing here. Is that which notices anger angry? This might be tricky to see – so keep looking when you are angry. If forgetting happens – no worries – just pick up whe remembering happens! OK.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Its like looking at something, curiosity arises, and then questions form. I dont know how to break it down further than that. Its a response to experience. I have planned to ask questions, ive recalled them when in contact with the questioned. They are thoughts and they can be memorys, i am not the questions. You cant locate the i in which these thoughts come from, i just feel like they are in my skull some where, not physically, more like a vanishing frequency transmission.

I am definitly not in control of deeper looking. If i where, i,d look deeply all the time. And by i, i mean thoughts that want to look deeper, not an actual me, its thoughts that want to go deeper and get frustrated, and that is not me, i understand but i dont fully believe at the moment. Thouggts say it is self that wants to look deeper and so thoughts try too see deeper and fail which causes frustration upon the self. But my physical body doesnt get frustrated, i dont know what does other than the thought.

If its the thoughts that are angry and not a self, then why does the anger carry into the next thought after the last angry thought has vanished? Are thoughts vessels of emotion? Cognitive behavioral therapy says thoughts effect feelings which determine action. I believe that. But can you feel without a thought?

Mornin Adam

Its like looking at something, curiosity arises, and then questions form.

Well if you had done that the process would be clear wouldn’t it? Do you bring the curiosity? Do you find that which you are looking at interesting? Did you decide it was interesting? And then did you bring the question? No one is doubting the looking is happening or the interest or the questions. But did you do it?

You cant locate the i in which these thoughts come from, i just feel like they are in my skull some where, not physically, more like a vanishing frequency transmission

OK – so is this formed from an image, thought, memory or feeling – the skull bit?

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?
(3) While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

I am definitly not in control of deeper looking. If i where, i,d look deeply all the time. And by i, i mean thoughts that want to look deeper, not an actual me, its thoughts that want to go deeper and get frustrated, and that is not me, i understand but i dont fully believe at the moment. Thouggts say it is self that wants to look deeper and so thoughts try too see deeper and fail which causes frustration upon the self. But my physical body doesnt get frustrated, i dont know what does other than the thought.

What doesn’t believe? What is belief? Thought? So are you waiting for thoughts to be convinced? LOL. That is never going to happen! Are thoughts part of what is or are they that which notices? Is that which notices needing proof of anything?

If its the thoughts that are angry and not a self, then why does the anger carry into the next thought after the last angry thought has vanished? Are thoughts vessels of emotion? Cognitive behavioral therapy says thoughts effect feelings which determine action. I believe that. But can you feel without a thought?

Interesting question - can you?

Well what makes a connection between thoughts? You have thought A and then thought B. Does thought C appear to be a connector thought? If so then thoughts can think! Can they? Do you experience a thought thinking?

Is anger accompanied by thought, or thought story, or images, or past experiences?

Have you experienced anger without thought? Are you able to watch anger rise, move and dissipate? Can you track it? What starts it? Then what happens?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Well, you cant force interest. I cant make my self interested in how my dresser drawer was built. Idc at all. I thought i made the questioning. But it seems to me now that awareness pours itself into things, a looking at, and then questions come to fill in perceived cracks of understanding.

The notion of thoughts being in the head is from education, memory, image, feel, all of that, i seem be sensing feeling of my head when im thinking, and no i cant locate exactly where, it must be conditioning, cause if i try to imagine thought happening in my chest cavity i can sort of picture it, feel it. And thats only with a few seconds practice. I have believed thoughts to be in my head since i was a child!

Your right you cant convince a thought of anything other than what its belief is. A new idea or belief is a new thought. Kinda like snap shots. That which notices(awareness) has no preference. Thoughts are not part of what is, if what is is say the phone i am on, the thoughts about this phone do not stay with it when i put the phone away, thoughts are products of a brain, they cant be part of awareness, awareness is unteathered, unbound, it is the opposite of things.

After giving the matter some thought, i would say that without thought, you couldnt feel emotion, just as without nervouse system, you couldnt feel pleasure or pain of the body.

Initially i believed thoughts are all independent of each other, but if so, how could you build a more accurate conclusion, you need the memory of the old thought, otherwise it would just be the same thought(conclusion) popping over and over again. Nothing would be learned, what you thought was final and thats it. But maybe i need to look at this more. But that might be it.

Ill add more tomorrow and try the mirror exercise as well. Goodnight Sarah.

Hey Adam

Thoughts are not part of what is, if what is is say the phone i am on, the thoughts about this phone do not stay with it when i put the phone away, thoughts are products of a brain, they cant be part of awareness, awareness is unteathered, unbound, it is the opposite of things.

If that’s the case what notices thoughts then? Don’t they appear in/of what is? How are they different from anything else appearing in what is?

Initially i believed thoughts are all independent of each other, but if so, how could you build a more accurate conclusion, you need the memory of the old thought, otherwise it would just be the same thought(conclusion) popping over and over again. Nothing would be learned, what you thought was final and thats it. But maybe i need to look at this more.

Can a thought think? Do you experience a thought thinking? Or just thinking?
Hugs Sarah xxx

I mean thoughts are not part of what is in the physical realm.

Thats what i mean by memory and developement of thoughts, perhaps they did think i was saying. But today i see there is just thinking, I cant locate a thought and its thoughts. There is just thinkig occuring.

Hi Adam
Have you had time to look at the mirror exercise yet?
Hugs S xx

No sorry have work 8 to 4 then eat then i have to do a meeting cause im in a halfway house but i will make time to do it asap. I havent forgot.
Xxx adam

Not to worry Adam - I know your busy.
Hugs S xx

Good evening.

I just meditated for a half hour. At the end i had an insight, or realization. That thoughts are happening whether you are aware of it or not, there is no thinking, thought is always happening, sometimes very subtley, but its a constant stream, whether awareness is listening to it looking at it or not, it is there. It exists. Thinking is a part of direct experience.

Happy 4th of July Sarah, today marks the day of Americas seperation from British rule. I visited the sight of the boston masacre and listend to officials read the Declaration of independence. I have English ancestry, did you know that? I am English, Lithuanian, Russian, and Polish. Born in America. I will attempt the mirror exercise now.

the looking into the mirror, seeing my body and the touching of my chest are independent experiences. There is no connection without concept. The looking and feelig dont even appear to be happening in the same place.

the only connection between the seeing of the hand and the feeling is there isnt one really, there is connection to the seeing and the movement, but not the feeling, you cannot see feeling, you can see movement, but those two are not exactly "connected" because both can occur independent of each other. Whether im looking in the mirror or at my actual hand. Same difference.

As I looked into the mirror, i heard the fan blowing. I looked at myself, and my surroundings, through the mirror. Then i also looked at the sink, and surroundings outside the mirror. As i turned and walked away and heard the fan and the echo of my steps in the bathroom, i got a brief look and understanding, i got scared, i sensed as though this thing or being that experiences is not exactly my own, that i dont posess it, it could leave this bodily "self",it could carry on without my body or mind, but i could not carry on without it. There where two instances of great insight in this exercise, and that was the better and final of tge two, i hope i did this right. Thoughts tell me i wasnt focused enough or that i half assed it. I wanna do this some more. I feel happy and a little creeped out. There is an eery vibe about me now.

hope to hear from you soon, enjoy the fourth of july Sarah.
hugs, Adam