The Gate

I was saying that this is an illusion...that there is no separate self inside of human being / a body-mind.

I don't want to lead you too much here. I want you to try to see the problems yourself.

You appear to be referring to a 'thing' (called a human being, Body-Mind etc) and suggesting that 'thing' does not have a separate self inside it.

How does that relate to this investigation (which is the only thing were interested in here anyway)?
How does that relate to what you have found through the guidance here?
Are you a human being (body-mind) without a separate self inside it?

If it is clear for you that 'things just happen', what is the 'I' that has a behaviour that aligns with that happening?
The body-mind is what has a behavior.

Once again, it that what has been realised through the guidance here?
Is that what has been found?

If it is clear for you that "things just happen," who or what is ever compelled?
What I meant was, what caused this body-mind to physically go to the white board and write a list.

Again, is that what has been discovered through the guidance here? Is that what is clear for you now?
That a 'body-mind' is responsible for actions like writing lists and on boards?

Xain ♥

--I don't know what I am.
--There is a thing here that is commonly known as a "body." The hands of this body are typing these words. This body does things...or maybe "does" isn't accurate...the body behaves in certain ways...actions occur. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the body-mind manifests behaviors (vs. "has" behaviors).
--I didn't mean to say that the body-mind was responsible for writing lists, but that it actually, physically wrote the lists with its body parts (the hand took the marker and made the marks on the white board).
--There is no controller...no separate self that controls things and no body-mind that controls things or has control of "itself." I understand this at some level, but it is very, very hard for me to get beyond the idea of having caused things to happen, especially things that appear to be harmful/detrimental to another "person." I can't seem to shake the idea, for instance, that I am harming my kids when I yell at them or am harshly critical of their behavior. I know these sentences are just wracked with illusions of a separate self. Yet I can't help feel this way sometimes...these feelings and beliefs arise ... they pass...but they do arise and the sense of "me" feels very real at times.
--Also, and I don't know if this is helpful or not, but the questions you posed this time felt like you were taking yet another "thing" away from "me," i.e., that you were questioning the existence of yet another thing that had seemed to exist (the body-mind formerly known as "mine."). When I say away from , "me," I know that "me" is just an idea, a concept, a mental construct...but the feelings associated with the mental construct, "me," can be very strong at times.

I understand this at some level, but it is very, very hard for me to get beyond the idea of having caused things to happen

Is 'I've caused something to happen' anything more than a thought popping up?
Again, this can be examined in the same way as all other things - Find the 'I' right now that causes things to happen. Is there one to be found? Or merely thoughts and ideas that suggest that there is one?

Same for the future . . .

Forgive me if this kind of questioning gets repetitive / tiring. All I can do is point you to the gate each time.
I think you know the answer to these questions anyway.

I can't seem to shake the idea, for instance, that I am harming my kids when I yell at them or am harshly critical of their behavior.

Is this anything more than an idea popping up?
This statement is couched in the belief that there is a separate 'you' and separate 'kids'. And that the one has 'choice and control' to harm the other.
What has been discovered?

Yet I can't help feel this way sometimes...these feelings and beliefs arise ... they pass...but they do arise and the sense of "me" feels very real at times.

If they arise - Are they arising for a 'you'? Are they experienced by a separate 'you'?
And what choice or control is there in any of this anyway?

Also, and I don't know if this is helpful or not, but the questions you posed this time felt like you were taking yet another "thing" away from "me,"

:-) Bur has there ever been a 'you' that had things to be taken away from?

Yes, It does seem from what you wrote that there are 'things' (conventionally speaking of course) that you won't let go of. Even here . . . is there a choice? Is there actual real control?
Could it be any different?

Who is at fault? Who is to blame?
One word - Surrender - Surrender to it all.

You've seen that 'I' is an illusion - Just an idea appearing.
But that only counts for all of them! ;-)

Xain ♥

Is 'I've caused something to happen' anything more than a thought popping up?
Again, this can be examined in the same way as all other things - Find the 'I' right now that causes things to happen. Is there one to be found? Or merely thoughts and ideas that suggest that there is one?

--No, "I" is not anything more than a thought popping up. Ideas about responsibility and blame are just thoughts that can't be verified...there is no way to know. There is no ground, really, is what this points to. The gig is up...nothing can be assumed or known, it seems...what is NOT can be known, what IS cannot be known. (Thoughts keep coming up, "What DOES cause things?" Can it be known? Are there realized people who understand how things work?)

This statement is couched in the belief that there is a separate 'you' and separate 'kids'. And that the one has 'choice and control' to harm the other. What has been discovered?

--I see that there is no "I" or separate self that controls this body-mind. There's just a thought or a belief, "I," that arises. To think that my kids are not separate beings is another challenge...again, it's like they are being taken away from me or something is being taken away from them...at the same time, I can feel a lot of compassion for them and me and for our lack of understanding ...for our ignorance in thinking we are separate selves. Thoughts of compassion seem to ease the movement toward realization, toward allowing this reality to sink in.

If they arise - Are they arising for a 'you'? Are they experienced by a separate 'you'?
And what choice or control is there in any of this anyway?

--The feelings and beliefs just arise and pass...there is something that experiences them, feels them, and is aware of them, which I guess is that which I am, whatever I am. But I can't find that. All I can find is ideas of a "me." There is no choice or control about the feelings and beliefs that arise or behaviors that occur. It's a mystery...the thought occurs that it's all a mystery...let go...as you say, surrender...

has there ever been a 'you' that had things to be taken away from?

--No...there was just an idea of a me who had a body-mind and who had kids....still feel a real tug of feeling when writing "had" kids...There is just an idea "I" and the idea that "I" am a separate someone who has children. Feelings of love arise for these children, but they are not "my" feelings. They are just free feelings. They aren't burdened with ownership. The thought arises that the feelings are more pure or concentrated when not associated with an "I" who is "having" them. This helps.

Is there a choice? Is there actual real control? could it be different" who is at fault? who is to blame?

--No...things just happen...there's no real control...it couldn't be different...no one is at fault or to blame...no one deserves credit, either! Ideas and feelings about blame and credit arise and pass, but they are just ideas.

Surrender ... yes... not that "I" can surrender, though! The idea of surrender can be taken in by "me" and have an influence, maybe...it's just what happened...you wrote, "surrender," and maybe it will have some influence on what happens for "me."

Thanks for your additional answers, Michelle.
The other guides are now confident that you have 'seen'.

No...there was just an idea of a me who had a body-mind and who had kids....still feel a real tug of feeling when writing "had" kids

Don't flip to nihilism though . . . realising that there is no separate self does not mean anything is lost.
It doesn't mean that there is an 'I' who does not have children now.
It is simply that the basis of the self is realised - (through thought).

The guiding is finished here, but if you are on Facebook I can get you added to our groups there for further looking and deeper examinations of stuff if that interests you. Let me know your facebook name or page link via a private message (click the red name 'Xain' and choose 'send private message' if you wish this. Or you may message me if you have other things you wish to examine or ask me - I'd be glad to help (but Facebook is by far the easier method really).

Thank you for sticking with the process, and enjoy that washing away in the stream . . .
Xain ♥

Wow! Thank you for YOU patience! This guidance has made a big difference for me. I feel my realization is a lot deeper than when I started out. Thank you so much, Xain.

I sent you a private message to request connection to FB groups. That sounds great.

My "big" question at this point is what would you suggest as far as continuing to deepen the realization? If someone wanted to spend the majority of their time working on deepening realization, what would you suggest they do? Would you suggest working with another person...like another guide or a teacher? The process of working with you took me from a lot of theoretical understanding to understanding from direct experience, and I would like to continue with that because it seems to be a much faster /more effective...and maybe the only...route to full realization (if that's possible in this lifetime).

Thank you again and again for your guidance.

Michelle