please guide me

[premji]

Dear Jon,

do you remember saying:
When I followed the thread “guide unto noself ” guided by jonathanR…(wich I found brilliant) I was surprised I stopped reading several times…..…I did not want to see(“get”) it without someone confirming me that that’s it….…what would I do after 35 years of searching if I see it……….not being in control…

I was struck by this. Almost as if you had started to notice 'no self'? Can you tell me why you stopped several times?

I did not want to get it by myself alone as ,I don’t trust ‘my’ seeing my insights.
I had many insights in this 35 yrs .,in different shades ,always doubtless truths from that point from which they emerge/were seen…
But not total truth’s as these insights were not always in allignement with each other ,more like different facets of one diamond.

Reading ; ‘guide unto noself’, I realized that any of these insights were not ; seeing ’no self’
Having had and lost all these insights, making sense one day but not the next day…
Who/what am I to trust ; thoughts?... insights .. experience ?...
So before I see there is no ‘self’ , I better stop and have someone to make sure this is it, how am I to know ?

During yesterdays long drive I allowed myself to listen only to “direct exp” from the enlightened quotes…plus ,having no attention on thoughts …driving in asian traffic..
I saw the whole movie and it was really like; How the hell can I miss this!

Yes THAT moment no need for conformation ,and control just being an senseless empty concept. ‘out of the box’ control doesn’t exist Whatsoever… not even
‘the illusion of control’ makes any sense or has any relevance.

Now at home……back in the prem box…., I have no idea how to get out of it….or how I got back in to it.
In the box, the concept of control does Makes sense ,although still seen that it is an illusion! …I am back in the box isn’t it ? , not my choice.

And ; ‘control is a senseless concept’ versus ‘there is no control’ is a huge difference…, confusing for me and so it has to be for you too, as it sounds as prem knows ,and he does in the conceptual knowledge (,as in the fruit-thought exc.) ,but it has no roots, it is not embodied , …It is not Being the seeing ,it is a story what prem is seeing.

Why would you need someone else to confirm what is 'seen'? 'Not being in control'.. how could 'someone' (an illusory someone) ever 'be in control'?

Yes, like I wrote above, being out of the box…there is no one here ,and nothing to be confirmed…BUT being IN the box its crowdy !

Was it something in particular you read during that conversation that seemed to be pushing you towards 'seeing'?

No ,Your pointing was clear , direct and gentle, exposing thought and returning to direct experience.
And it’s always more easy to see where others miss the point, and so make it look, that I GOT the point,…just don’t ask ME anything ,right ?
I did not finish reading it ,nor have read any thread front to back ,
As my mind steels anything and makes it looks his own.

On another matter, we willl examine your concerns but at the moment it is a very good idea just to look simply at sensation. Regardless of what thought has to say about this. Notice any one of the five senses as it is happening right here and now. And just be aware of the coming and going of any and all thoughts that appear.

Are any of these thoughts causing sensations to happen ?

No ,they have no relation with sensations.

With love

prem

[JonathanR]

Dear Prem,

Thanks for your post. I read it with a lot of interest.

Just going back a day...

• I/Prem cannot separate direct experience from thought and its content, they seem to be included , including the believing in the content.

Important. This looks like seeing directly what is going on. Sensory experience happens now. Thoughts may (or may not) be experienced now. Belief in the content or story of thoughts may or may not be happening now. But where is the one that could stop any of this from happening? Isn't there some significance in not finding one?

Is there a 'self' that is 'responsible' for thoughts or their content? Do these thoughts not roll on as the sea rolls on? Where is the controler of thoughts or their contents?

Don't these all happen unstopably? Unless they happen to stop for a while?

The believing in contents. How should this be avoided? Where is the one that fears the content? Does this not happen just as the clouds cover the stars for a while? And the waking up to there having been belief? Who or what can stop this from reappearing? Isn't belief and 'self' the universe's little joke, so that things can actually seem to be happening? So that there can seem to be a story? So that there can be the appearance of birth and death and suffering?

I/Prem needs help/cannot do it...,… can’t trust thought, nor trust the seeing through thought, which seems just being more thought ….= I cannot trust myself..

Well, there is a perceived 'self' that seems to 'think' this... imagining a constrained entity. But look for this entity right now. Is there one?

Prem always claims any seeing to be; his seeing, his loosing it, and his regaining it.

No 'Prem' doesn't. These are thoughts about a 'Prem' that 'does' this. Is there a 'self' to be found anywhere that can 'do' anything?

Love,

Jon.

[premji]

Dear Jon,

• I/Prem cannot separate direct experience from thought and its content, they seem to be included , including the believing in the content.

Important. This looks like seeing directly what is going on. Sensory experience happens now. Thoughts may (or may not) be experienced now. Belief in the content or story of thoughts may or may not be happening now. But where is the one that could stop any of this from happening? Isn't there some significance in not finding one?

The only place where that one could be found is in the content of thought….going back to an earlier question you gave me ;
Does the thought 'I' or any thought ever cause the subject of thought to 'exist' as a 'real separate entity'?
The only one ,is part of the content of thought,which can’t stop anything,just a label…a label for a process,
the process can’t stop anything because it doesn’t, and will if it does.
Significance; Yes unreal…how can it be ..at the moment feeling depressing and disappointed

Funny,as I wrote in yesterdays post ;control is an senseless concept/has no existence whatsoever…
’I’ which honestly can’t be found except as a word /sound in the content of thought, doesn’t feel senseless like ‘control’ does.
So asking myself; ‘what does the ‘I’ point to’…it basically points to this body,because I can’t point to a story, except within the story ,
Even the body exist only in the story,without labeling- thought there is No body to be seen.

Is there a 'self' that is 'responsible' for thoughts or their content? Do these thoughts not roll on as the sea rolls on? Where is the controler of thoughts or their contents?

No there isn’t ..thanks god!...he is responsible!..
Rolling they do, tell me about it ,it is storming !

Am ‘I’ the victim?..in the story it say’s so,
Compassionate from god that the victim doesn’t exist outside the story ,but is part of the story.
A bad joke…almost sarcastic.

Don't these all happen unstopably? Unless they happen to stop for a while?

Yes.

The believing in contents. How should this be avoided?

The believing in the content is avoided or better said, has no existence,like the santa Klaus example,

I am missing here something is it ? I can feel it when typing this.

Also it is not relevant to this investigation, but just realized that the story of prem was never accepted…
Now I feel there is some connection with me endlessly pointing,
How the prem story SHOULD be ,”without identification”

One story of prem, and another story of prem watching/noticing the story of prem ,plus another that say’s prem should be seeing thoughts as thoughts…and the latest believed in quite serious if I look my answers.
(funny i did not see that one as a story)

,so I sleep with that and answer the rest tomorrow.

Thanking you so much,

Love, prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem

Thanks, I'll look out for your post

Jon

[premji]

Dear Jon,

Sorry I did not post yesterday ,this time really got lost on the road and arrived exhausted and very late.

That seeing that prem should see ‘thought as thought’s’ is a story aswell was utmost tiny/insignificant and went almost unnoticed, but created a huge storm, and disappointment.
‘this can’t be it’ ,and thought’s spinning non stop throwing all kinds of ideas up.
This morning everything is settled down quite a bit, and I am in a space of not knowing,wheter there is a ‘self’ or not.
Mind argueing yesterday; “if nobody has ever found or seen a ‘self’,how can anyone know there is no ‘self’ ?! ,
how would you know,it is an contradiction in terms.”
Anyway some chunk dropped

I went trough and answered your post another time.

• I/Prem cannot separate direct experience from thought and its content, they seem to be included , including the believing in the content.

Important. This looks like seeing directly what is going on. Sensory experience happens now. Thoughts may (or may not) be experienced now. Belief in the content or story of thoughts may or may not be happening now. But where is the one that could stop any of this from happening? Isn't there some significance in not finding one?

Thanks,that clears the doubt about direct experience,yes there is no one who can stop this from happening.
About ‘the significance in not finding one’ there is still some doubt;
What can say this ? what is looking and cannot find? what knows all this?
Yes no prem, but knowing is happening
Ok I ask myself ; is knowing happening, and how do I know that that is knowing?
Well I don’t, thought say’s… ‘it is knowing’,
But this itself is thought,isn’t it?
Is knowing real,? is seeing through the illusion of ‘self’ real ?
Or Is this the story of stories ?
Are all these questions / answers, just branches , some idea to hold on to?
And who is having that, and knowing that ?...this ‘knowing’ again,..feels like just a story without base also.
Can prem be, /live/function without a prem ?

Is there a 'self' that is 'responsible' for thoughts or their content?

No

Do these thoughts not roll on as the sea rolls on?

yes

Where is the controler of thoughts or their contents?

there is none

Don't these all happen unstopably? Unless they happen to stop for a while?

yes

The believing in contents. How should this be avoided?

Can’t be avoided, but can be seen as part of the prem story ,something IS seeing no?
Seeing ?? …

I’ve been questioning this over and over yesterday ,as to my insistence of no identification.
Can struggling be experienced without the feeling of struggling?

Where is the one that fears the content?

Prem in the prem story .

Does this not happen just as the clouds cover the stars for a while?

yes

And the waking up to there having been belief?

Yes

Who or what can stop this from reappearing?

No one, not the prem in the story…but there is this terrible resistance,almost anger like ,where you want to push me..35yrs a complete waist…just a bad dream (there is a bit of investment in there !)

Isn't belief and 'self' the universe's little joke, so that things can actually seem to be happening?

It does resonate somehow , but is not clear

So that there can seem to be a story? So that there can be the appearance of birth and death and suffering?

This is an hard one to swallow ,very cruel, more the devil at work……Ifeel anger

I/Prem needs help/cannot do it...,… can’t trust thought, nor trust the seeing through thought, which seems just being more thought ….= I cannot trust myself..

Well, there is a perceived 'self' that seems to 'think' this... imagining a constrained entity. But look for this entity right now. Is there one?

No, but there seems to be one,which shouldn’t be there
I can not conceive of how to function/ be in this world without prem,.. prem and world go together no?….
I feel like loosing the battle,which is still acceptable, but that there never was a battle is very dishonouring…
I feel lot of shame and being stupid, more so after 35yrs seriously spending all time and all money, sacrifying relationships/ friends / fun…live so to say for something Which final reward is ; by having you discover that you have been an complete idiot all along !

Prem always claims any seeing to be; his seeing, his loosing it, and his regaining it.

No 'Prem' doesn't. These are thoughts about a 'Prem' that 'does' this. Is there a 'self' to be found anywhere that can 'do' anything?

No ,
…now just watching as ‘prem’ still try’s frantically to take his stand somewhere.

with

Love,

prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem,

I am so sorry. It looks very much as though my reply from last night did not make it onto the LU Guiding forum server. I had assumed you had read it and was waiting for your response.

It is now late and dificult for me to post at length, But I'll say a few things.

Is knowing real,? is seeing through the illusion of ‘self’ real ?
Or Is this the story of stories ?

Looking is surely possible? Look for this 'self'. It's surely a matter of noticing what cannot be found in experience?

And who is having that, and knowing that ?...this ‘knowing’ again,..feels like just a story without base also.

Yes, well, 'self' is something that cannot be found. 'You' don't have to 'know' this?

No one, not the prem in the story…but there is this terrible resistance,almost anger like ,where you want to push me..35yrs a complete waist…just a bad dream (there is a bit of investment in there !)

That's very honest. I'm sorry you feel like this but it may be worth looking at this resistance. How does it manifest?

So that there can seem to be a story? So that there can be the appearance of birth and death and suffering?

This is an hard one to swallow ,very cruel, more the devil at work……Ifeel anger

Perhaps my remarks here created confusion? I really didn't mean that the uninverse is evil, just that thought is as much a creation of the universe as are stars and wth thought come all sorts of ideas about all sorts of things? Might it not be liberating to recognise that there is no choice about what is being thought and no 'self' that 'creates' thoughts or their content?

Love,

Jon

[premji]

Dear Jon,

I am so sorry. It looks very much as though my reply from last night did not make it onto the LU Guiding forum server. I had assumed you had read it and was waiting for your response.

Thanks for your post,I am happy you are still here with me,I thought you had given me the sack,which brought an old well believed story of ‘selfpity’ and ‘self judgement’ in the light.

I read through a long tread,17pages,to see if I recognized my stumbling blocks…
and from another tread played with the watermelon exc,Elena giving it to me with eyes open,and on asking how to drop the melon, was surprised to see my mind trying to find a way to drop it .litterally trying to find a bin or hole to throw it in.
Even not seeing it ,it felt real and I could not snap out of that, other then standing up and walking away,.. being even more surprised coming back to still ‘see-feel’ the melon to be on the couch.

maybe I should have a break a few days…but probably can’t as this investigation is consuming itself.

Is knowing real,? is seeing through the illusion of ‘self’ real ?
Or Is this the story of stories ?

Looking is surely possible? Look for this 'self'. It's surely a matter of noticing what cannot be found in experience?

Yes ,but as with the melon, and ‘my’ thinking you sacking me, there is this veil, and at the same time a lot of intense vibrant ,(emotional) sensations, which is experienced.
**there seems to be a belief that direct exp is a kind of plain soft sensations with little or no thought ,at least not believed in.

aswell looking for an ‘I’,and not finding it a lot of anguish is felt…as sensations.
** funny aswell , am I looking for a ‘no self’?....why should there be anguish not finding ‘self’,

And who is having that, and knowing that ?...this ‘knowing’ again,..feels like just a story without base also.

Yes, well, 'self' is something that cannot be found. 'You' don't have to 'know' this?

Yes, thank you, I see; ‘knowing’ is a mind/thought/self’s trick to keep itself in place as real.

No one, not the prem in the story…but there is this terrible resistance,almost anger like ,where you want to push me..35yrs a complete waist…just a bad dream (there is a bit of investment in there !)

That's very honest. I'm sorry you feel like this but it may be worth looking at this resistance. How does it manifest?

There is a joy having /playing this story,
Giving up or seeing through feels like defeat, nothing to do, nothing to live for, no reward…
It feels like dying to all what was cherrised so much.....................I love stories ,isn't it.
This is the trigger, and it manifest like…depression ,panick…
all this showing throughout my posts….how/why/therefor/however…....etc

When I as a child found out Santa was not real,I was really angry and dissapointed ,and never have forgiven my parents or any adults.
Singing song’s in front of the cheminee ! .with a carrot in my shoe !
They completely disrespected me, and certificated me of being a ‘child’ which needs to learn a lot before it can be an adult, as it doesn’t know yet .
Where my innocence was Pure, and their story’s and knowledge was corrupt.
, a clever way of putting me in a box through using my own confirmation!!
I have never trusted human beings since ! (explains my living in the jungle alone)

All pain I created for others and went through myself,are caused by being forcefed with their norms , their beliefs and their story’s,
they turned me into an emotional dependent schitzo,
Any moron can have a child isn’t it ?
Using their completely dependent innocent child,
Mostly to fill up their hole of never being loved,
no wonder what humans do with all of nature, animals plants and earth and not to forget each other……………...

Ok that’s back in the story completely….

But truly, that’s why I escaped into the spiritual search when drugs couldn’t keep me comfortable unconscious any longer.

Might it not be liberating to recognise that there is no choice about what is being thought and no 'self' that 'creates' thoughts or their content?

Yes it seems the only way out and unavoidable…’the lotus grows out of the mud’..some say.

So what to do with these sticky points?......again wrong question is it?...
I keep looking…maybe not for an ‘I’….but for what is here.

Its like being on a tight rope….am ‘I’ looking………..sticky stuff it is .

Seeing this , the former, also to be a story,..is again a story…they don’t stop !..=another story,…=(which) is a story aswell…

Over 20 yrs ago ‘I’ was in the same situation ,whenever I wanted to ask Papaji a question ,at a point it was seen as thought only. So I stopped asking as it started to look utterly stupid, but somehow the ‘self wasn’t seen through completely, without doubt , and in due time got full hold again…
Sorry Jon for all your effort and time…but this spell has to be broken…..I cannot settle for less…or a sometimes…


Love,

prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem,

Sorry, time is limited here so I'll have to be brief.

played with the watermelon exc,Elena giving it to me with eyes open,and on asking how to drop the melon, was surprised to see my mind trying to find a way to drop it .litterally trying to find a bin or hole to throw it in.
Even not seeing it ,it felt real and I could not snap out of that, other then standing up and walking away,.. being even more surprised coming back to still ‘see-feel’ the melon to be on the couch.

This seems like a worthwhile investigation.

aswell looking for an ‘I’,and not finding it a lot of anguish is felt…as sensations.
** funny aswell , am I looking for a ‘no self’?....why should there be anguish not finding ‘self’,

It seems some people do actually try to find a 'no self', or start by looking to see if 'self' is 'there' and slip in to thinking in terms of discovering a thing called 'no self'. It isn't a thing, entity or even 'realisation', is it? One can only point to the illusoriness or absence of 'self'. It's terribly simple. There has been a belief in 'I' but this drops away oce it is noticed that it was only assumed.

But truly, that’s why I escaped into the spiritual search when drugs couldn’t keep me comfortable unconscious any longer.

I understand this. There is some paralell here with 'my own' experience.

Love

Jon

[premji]

Dear Jon,

Sorry, time is limited here so I'll have to be brief.

Ok ,have a lot of driving to do again/ taking care of mam.
So good time/day to have a bit a break

It isn't a thing, entity or even 'realisation', is it?

No it isn’t,……just slowly layers of beliefs are seen through.


With love,

prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem,

Sure, just write again when you are ready. It is possible I my be a little slow responding this week end due to exceptional busyness...but I will respond.

Love

Jonny

[JonathanR]

Oops. Wretched predictive text on my mobile phone turned my name into Jonny instead of Jon.

[premji]

Dear Jon,


There has been full chaos , with all its emotions,

This one below is still thriving.

Once it is seen that there is a moon, even when we don’t see the moon there is no doubt about that moon exist isn’t it ??

….so when it is seen that self/I does not exist ,even when the thought about a self/I comes up there should be no trouble ,right,…If there is ,then it has not been fully seen through ……Isn’t it…?!

I, or my thinking goes like this….i have seen the moon….but as I don’t see it now I can’t really say moon exist , I am answering from a memory/intellectual understanding, not from direct experience.

AND
bear with me please ;

where is the trouble except for the story that says this is trouble…do I exp trouble?….no …I experience conflict…where I experience conflict…I don’t it is the story about conflict…where is this I that experiences all that….in the story….outside the story is there an i…no…so what or who has the problem……its like bad weather, the view is fuzzy….for whom ?,,,,I don’t actually know..its just fuzzy….so it shouldn’t be fuzzy? …says who…a thought….……is there a view at all?....no ..i don’t know why the view is important….the view is for who…who has the view….nobody has the view, its just there as fuzzy…what does fuzzyness block?…clear seeing…clear seeing of what?…clear seeing that there is no I ….how does that look like ‘seeing no I’….. …..can you see an I?…no……is it still fuzzy?…..yes….and you don’t see an i….yes,,,,do you hear smell taste an i….no…..so no I to be found?…yes….this is clear seeing no?….no I cant find I ,but it is not clearly seen……

with love prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem,

There has been full chaos , with all its emotions,

This one below is still thriving.

Once it is seen that there is a moon, even when we don’t see the moon there is no doubt about that moon exist isn’t it ??

….so when it is seen that self/I does not exist ,even when the thought about a self/I comes up there should be no trouble ,right,…If there is ,then it has not been fully seen through ……Isn’t it…?!

I, or my thinking goes like this….i have seen the moon….but as I don’t see it now I can’t really say moon exist , I am answering from a memory/intellectual understanding, not from direct experience.

First thing I need to know is how are you viewing the moon? Specificaly, do you accept that when looking at the moon there is a real sensation experienced?

If this is the view then moon is there to be found, ok? We look for it and if the sky is dark and clear we see the moon. Yes?

Can the same ever be said of 'self'?

Is it even possible to make a comparison like this, between a sensation and whatever cannot be found in experience?

where is the trouble except for the story that says this is trouble…do I exp trouble?….no …I experience conflict…where I experience conflict…I don’t it is the story about conflict…where is this I that experiences all that….in the story….outside the story is there an i…no…so what or who has the problem……its like bad weather, the view is fuzzy….for whom ?,,,,I don’t actually know..its just fuzzy….so it shouldn’t be fuzzy? …says who…a thought….……is there a view at all?....no ..i don’t know why the view is important….the view is for who…who has the view….nobody has the view, its just there as fuzzy…what does fuzzyness block?…clear seeing…clear seeing of what?…clear seeing that there is no I ….how does that look like ‘seeing no I’….. …..can you see an I?…no……is it still fuzzy?…..yes….and you don’t see an i….yes,,,,do you hear smell taste an i….no…..so no I to be found?…yes….this is clear seeing no?….no I cant find I ,but it is not clearly seen…

It's not complicated. If you can't find an 'I' then one can't be found. Forget about 'seeing clearly'..that's just additional speculation. Look again. Can a 'self' be found? Can one be found right now? Is there a self here right now.

Love

Jon

[premji]

Dear Jon,

First thing I need to know is how are you viewing the moon? Specificaly, do you accept that when looking at the moon there is a real sensation experienced?

Yes there is sight.

If this is the view then moon is there to be found, ok? We look for it and if the sky is dark and clear we see the moon. Yes?

Yes.

Can the same ever be said of 'self'?

No,

Is it even possible to make a comparison like this, between a sensation and whatever cannot be found in experience?

No, I meant it in that way, that even when the I thought arises ,there is no doubt about the none existence of the self/i , including with whatever the I thought arises with, as it is known to be a thought story only.

It's not complicated. If you can't find an 'I' then one can't be found. Forget about 'seeing clearly'..that's just additional speculation. Look again. Can a 'self' be found? Can one be found right now? Is there a self here right now.

No ,no self/I is found.

Love

prem

[JonathanR]

Hi Prem,

Ok thank you. so you say...

I, or my thinking goes like this….i have seen the moon….but as I don’t see it now I can’t really say moon exist , I am answering from a memory/intellectual understanding, not from direct experience.

Yes. That's possible. How can intellectual understanding be prevented from appearing?

How can seeing through the false nature of this intellectual understanding be prevented?

Is there a 'self' that can 'choose' (or not) to notice that self is an illusion?

where is the trouble except for the story that says this is trouble

Exactly. Where?

how does that look like ‘seeing no I’….. …..can you see an I?…no……is it still fuzzy?…..yes….and you don’t see an i….yes,,,,do you hear smell taste an i….no…..so no I to be found?…yes….this is clear seeing no?….no I cant find I ,but it is not clearly seen…

What is meant by 'fuzzy'?

What is meant by 'clearly seen'?

Is it possible to 'see' 'no 'self'? (Or is that a thought about 'seeing'')?

Who or what 'sees'?

Love.

Jon