Looking for help :)

[QuantSelfLaFont]

nope!

Ok great. I am going to walk you through a few questions here to make sure we are clear together.

Question1: Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all, anywhere in any shape or form? Was there ever?


Question2: Explain in detail the illusion of separate self, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Cheers!

[piiineapple]

Question1: Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all, anywhere in any shape or form? Was there ever

No there isn't anywhere in any form, and there wasn't ever, nor could there be.

Question2: Explain in detail the illusion of separate self, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion starts due to a conceptual error I suppose- there are things in language which designate real things, and there are things in language that are just useful concepts. By using words like 'I', 'me', 'mine', 'yours' etc. this means that certain elements of life are identified with and made into a 'thing' which isn't actually separate or substantial, nor does it hold any of the attributes that it is supposed to (agency, etc.) Sooooooo how I see it now is that what's real are the sensations that are making up experience (or just sensations/experience, same thing) and none of it is personal and none of it is separate or distinct from life/happening, it's all just life/happening. There are still 'self' thoughts, I guess this is just a function of the mind in its current form and the habit of decades of identification, but I know this to have nothing to do with a separate self, just the habits/tendencies/cause and effect conditions etc. I don't know really, hope that explains it, I think i was expecting it to be really different but my overriding feeling is that how could it be different because what i thought was in existence never has been, so of course it's just the same as it was before, except that things hold less significance now- there's less identification going on and more just letting go and watching- of course no one to let go and watch but you know what i mean!

does that sound right?! thanks for all your help its been the best thing i've ever done :D (conventionally speaking.......!!)

[QuantSelfLaFont]

No there isn't anywhere in any form..

Good.

there are things in language which designate real things, and there are things in language that are just useful concepts

Good

Question: How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the last few days.

[piiineapple]

No there isn't anywhere in any form..

Good.

there are things in language which designate real things, and there are things in language that are just useful concepts

Good

Question: How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the last few days.

Sorry for big quote, I'm on my phone!
At first it felt sad and then it felt very free-ing, more attention was paid to direct experience and I felt less encumbered by thoughts. There was a sense of being on the right track and accomplishment. But I realise this is all narrative. Now I'm not sure how it feels. To be honest I am oscillating between feeling like I know and feeling like I don't know. All mind States, sensations are the same haha!

[QuantSelfLaFont]

I realise this is all narrative.

Good. OK.

Question: Describe intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for fore? Give me some examples from experience.

Thanks!

[piiineapple]

I realise this is all narrative.

Good. OK.

Question: Describe intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for fore? Give me some examples from experience.

Thanks!

Intention, free will, choice and control are (so far as I can tell) all after-thoughts, literally. They seem to be some sort of story based thought induced coma of sorts. Causes and conditions make things happen, just everything unfolding as a matter of course, so many different causes for the effects to arise. There's no ''I' to be responsible for anything, although this can be a bit baffling to the mind which seeks, the habitual seeker thought pattern is like 'OK BUT HOW DO I NOW STAY IN THAT AND MAKE THIS UNDERSTANDING MORRRRRE', but there's also a chilled element where looking at direct experience helps to lessen that. Examples from experience: what food I choose to eat (didn't choose, causes and conditions happened), where I travel to (didn't choose), the words that are said when I speak (don't choose).... hope that sounds ok, not sure if that's what you meant.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

just everything unfolding as a matter of course

Ok, great. You seem to have it.

Question: What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

[piiineapple]

just everything unfolding as a matter of course

Ok, great. You seem to have it.

Question: What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was you bringing my attention to two things in combination: the Middle of the day alarms to notice agency, and pointing towards the fact that sense of self is also just thought. This pretty much blew my mind and then I went through the LU app again and was just like ohhhhhhhhh yeeeeeahhhhhhhhhhhh

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Thanks Gem. I've cut and pasted your answers to the five "final questions" we have at LU so other guides can review your answers and ask additional questions if needed. I've added one to the end for your comment as well.

Question1: Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all, anywhere in any shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't anywhere in any form, and there wasn't ever, nor could there be.

Question2: Explain in detail the illusion of separate self, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion starts due to a conceptual error I suppose- there are things in language which designate real things, and there are things in language that are just useful concepts. By using words like 'I', 'me', 'mine', 'yours' etc. this means that certain elements of life are identified with and made into a 'thing' which isn't actually separate or substantial, nor does it hold any of the attributes that it is supposed to (agency, etc.) Sooooooo how I see it now is that what's real are the sensations that are making up experience (or just sensations/experience, same thing) and none of it is personal and none of it is separate or distinct from life/happening, it's all just life/happening. There are still 'self' thoughts, I guess this is just a function of the mind in its current form and the habit of decades of identification, but I know this to have nothing to do with a separate self, just the habits/tendencies/cause and effect conditions etc. I don't know really, hope that explains it, I think i was expecting it to be really different but my overriding feeling is that how could it be different because what i thought was in existence never has been, so of course it's just the same as it was before, except that things hold less significance now- there's less identification going on and more just letting go and watching- of course no one to let go and watch but you know what i mean!

does that sound right?! thanks for all your help its been the best thing i've ever done :D (conventionally speaking.......!!)

Question3: How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the last few days.

At first it felt sad and then it felt very free-ing, more attention was paid to direct experience and I felt less encumbered by thoughts. There was a sense of being on the right track and accomplishment. But I realise this is all narrative. Now I'm not sure how it feels. To be honest I am oscillating between feeling like I know and feeling like I don't know. All mind States, sensations are the same haha!

Question4: Describe intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for fore? Give me some examples from experience.

Intention, free will, choice and control are (so far as I can tell) all after-thoughts, literally. They seem to be some sort of story based thought induced coma of sorts. Causes and conditions make things happen, just everything unfolding as a matter of course, so many different causes for the effects to arise. There's no ''I' to be responsible for anything, although this can be a bit baffling to the mind which seeks, the habitual seeker thought pattern is like 'OK BUT HOW DO I NOW STAY IN THAT AND MAKE THIS UNDERSTANDING MORRRRRE', but there's also a chilled element where looking at direct experience helps to lessen that. Examples from experience: what food I choose to eat (didn't choose, causes and conditions happened), where I travel to (didn't choose), the words that are said when I speak (don't choose).... hope that sounds ok, not sure if that's what you meant.

Question5: What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was you bringing my attention to two things in combination: the Middle of the day alarms to notice agency, and pointing towards the fact that sense of self is also just thought. This pretty much blew my mind and then I went through the LU app again and was just like ohhhhhhhhh yeeeeeahhhhhhhhhhhh

Question6: Anything to add?

[piiineapple]

Thanks Gem. I've cut and pasted your answers to the five "final questions" we have at LU so other guides can review your answers and ask additional questions if needed. I've added one to the end for your comment as well.

Question1: Is there a separate entity "self", "me", "I" at all, anywhere in any shape or form? Was there ever?

No there isn't anywhere in any form, and there wasn't ever, nor could there be.

Question2: Explain in detail the illusion of separate self, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion starts due to a conceptual error I suppose- there are things in language which designate real things, and there are things in language that are just useful concepts. By using words like 'I', 'me', 'mine', 'yours' etc. this means that certain elements of life are identified with and made into a 'thing' which isn't actually separate or substantial, nor does it hold any of the attributes that it is supposed to (agency, etc.) Sooooooo how I see it now is that what's real are the sensations that are making up experience (or just sensations/experience, same thing) and none of it is personal and none of it is separate or distinct from life/happening, it's all just life/happening. There are still 'self' thoughts, I guess this is just a function of the mind in its current form and the habit of decades of identification, but I know this to have nothing to do with a separate self, just the habits/tendencies/cause and effect conditions etc. I don't know really, hope that explains it, I think i was expecting it to be really different but my overriding feeling is that how could it be different because what i thought was in existence never has been, so of course it's just the same as it was before, except that things hold less significance now- there's less identification going on and more just letting go and watching- of course no one to let go and watch but you know what i mean!

does that sound right?! thanks for all your help its been the best thing i've ever done :D (conventionally speaking.......!!)

Question3: How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the last few days.

At first it felt sad and then it felt very free-ing, more attention was paid to direct experience and I felt less encumbered by thoughts. There was a sense of being on the right track and accomplishment. But I realise this is all narrative. Now I'm not sure how it feels. To be honest I am oscillating between feeling like I know and feeling like I don't know. All mind States, sensations are the same haha!

Question4: Describe intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for fore? Give me some examples from experience.

Intention, free will, choice and control are (so far as I can tell) all after-thoughts, literally. They seem to be some sort of story based thought induced coma of sorts. Causes and conditions make things happen, just everything unfolding as a matter of course, so many different causes for the effects to arise. There's no ''I' to be responsible for anything, although this can be a bit baffling to the mind which seeks, the habitual seeker thought pattern is like 'OK BUT HOW DO I NOW STAY IN THAT AND MAKE THIS UNDERSTANDING MORRRRRE', but there's also a chilled element where looking at direct experience helps to lessen that. Examples from experience: what food I choose to eat (didn't choose, causes and conditions happened), where I travel to (didn't choose), the words that are said when I speak (don't choose).... hope that sounds ok, not sure if that's what you meant.

Question5: What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was you bringing my attention to two things in combination: the Middle of the day alarms to notice agency, and pointing towards the fact that sense of self is also just thought. This pretty much blew my mind and then I went through the LU app again and was just like ohhhhhhhhh yeeeeeahhhhhhhhhhhh

Question6: Anything to add?

No that sounds about right.
Thank you :)

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Ok Gem. I have no more questions for you. I have asked other Guides to review our discussion and see if they have any questions for you. Hold tight and I'll be right back with you. Cheers

[piiineapple]

This is cool! Thanks Paul :)
with much love

[QuantSelfLaFont]

Ok, we have no further questions. It has been a pleasure pointing the way.

What happens next is I have asked the admins to make your name blue in this forum which indicates you have passed through the Gate. Assuming you use Facebook and you are willing to give us your Facebook name, we'll invite you to private Liberation Unleashed Facebook groups. They run the gamut from LU Aftercare for those like yourself who have just come through to various language forums as well as some forums where people debate all manner of things.

You'll have access to some additional materials and a robust community. With time and your comfort you can participate in more activities in that community.

What you are about to experience is what we call the "falling away" - a period where the realizations you have had begin to peel back some of your earlier stories. It can be disorienting, and exciting. Everyone has their own path. I will be close by to answer your questions and help you through.

Welcome!