Triratna OM Guide please

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Dee wrote:
Oh yes. Distance, focus, perspective - concepts! Not experience.
That's it.
Now, pushing the observation further, challenging all labels that come up, where does it lead?

There's just vision in contact with sensations. Are you asking something else?

Dee wrote:
I like the Santa Claus example. Thanks
Santa is a favourite one on LU. It illustrates in a simple and clear manner how the belief system works. And how beliefs can disappear without jeopardising an existence.
Santa is a metaphor for the "self". What happens when "self" is substituted for Santa in the story?

Self is a story. Imagination. There are memories, thoughts, ideas about Santa/self. An illusion.

And while on the subject of belief, that's twice now the following question has not been answered. So here it is again:
Is the belief in a 'separate self', or in a 'self-view' still present?

Woops! Sorry. No. The belief is a separate self or self view is not present.

All the best
d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

There's just vision in contact with sensations. Are you asking something else?

”There's just vision...” Yes, in a way ... 'just'.
It's about noticing the differences between the activity of a mind busy with labelling, conceptualising, elaborating plans, etc, and the activity of observing experience. What is 'present' in one activity, what is 'absent' in the other.
It's about not taking anything for granted, not stopping at 'first impressions'.
It's about deeply exploring, observing beyond observing (so to speak), Dee.

Woops! Sorry. No. The belief is a separate self or self view is not present.

That is wonderful news Dee. Very good work.

The next step now is to observe this absence from different angles and make sure it isn't lurking there under some disguise.

From a previous posts:

when I forget (when busy working) about this process (LU) I know I still feel there is a me. Strong opinions appear, protection, putting up barriers between myself and "out there". When I bring my attention back to this process and experience my experience then I can't locate the self.

Question:
Is there a belief that, 'when busy working' (for example) and there's a feeling of a me (strong opinions, protection, etc), the “self” is back, so to speak?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi again Dridhamati

Yes self definitely creeps back. I noticed today when a person bumped into me twice in a shop - my space, I'm here. And when I'm busy doing things - home, work, perhaps on auto pilot.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Yes self definitely creeps back.

Does it Dee?
"The belief is a separate self or self view is not present" (according to the previous post) yet a "self creeps back in"?
Reads a bit like "I don't believe in Santa anymore but will write him a letter all the same since I saw him in the street today." Doesn't it?

I noticed today when a person bumped into me twice in a shop - my space, I'm here. And when I'm busy doing things - home, work, perhaps on auto pilot.

Before looking into what happens here into greater detail, where is the evidence that a "self" exists in what is being described here?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Concepts! I claimed/protected "my" "space" when "I" was bumped into, twice.
"I'm" busy working. "I" have to do these things.

An "attitude" of self creeps back - is that Santa back or a concept?
Now I don't know if I'm undermining the concept of a self or no self!
There are sensations. Im in a muddle.

Best wishes d

[Dee]

PS no - I don't believe in the concept of a separate self. Concepts get in the way - but I don't believe in them either,

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Concepts! I claimed/protected "my" "space" when "I" was bumped into, twice.
"I'm" busy working. "I" have to do these things.

Right, no “I” that got bumped into, no “I” that got busy working, no “I” that had to do these things. All concepts. Thanks for the clarification.

An "attitude" of self creeps back

That's another way of putting it, yes.

is that Santa back or a concept?

Was Santa ever anything other than a concept?

Now I don't know if I'm undermining the concept of a self or no self!

Both “self” and “no self” are concepts Dee. The latter (“no self”) is the conceptual negation of the former (“self”).

There are sensations. Im in a muddle.

That tends to happen when concepts (stories, thoughts, etc) get in the way of sensations. It's like a “cannot compute” scenario: thoughts claiming there is a “self”, observation revealing there isn't.
There are sensations.

PS no - I don't believe in the concept of a separate self. Concepts get in the way - but I don't believe in them either,

And just to make sure: who/what is this “I” that doesn't believe in concepts?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi again

Concepts arise. They are recognised as concepts. They are sensations arising in the mind.

Belief is like a concept - it arises and passes away.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Concepts arise. They are recognised as concepts. They are sensations arising in the mind.
Belief is like a concept - it arises and passes away.

Thank you Dee.

Stepping up the observation process here:
Exercise: looking at ‘arising and passing away’.
Using whatever physical sense that is easier to work with, observe experience ... as it happens ... now ... just now.
Can ‘arising and passing away’ (of anything) actually be observed?

This was written a few days ago:

I noticed today when a person bumped into me twice in a shop - my space, I'm here. And when I'm busy doing things - home, work, perhaps on auto pilot.

Is this type of activity seen clearly now?

This also was written a few days ago:

Why must there be an entity in control? ... How do we manage to follow rules, learn complicated processes ...

These two simple exercises were given:
1. Standing up, arms along the body. The thought arises 'raise the right arm'. Does the right arm reliably rise each time the order comes?
2. Another one: can the next thought be reliably predicted?
An answer was given: “I tried the exercises and it is clear. Thanks.”
Is the concept of ‘agency’ (controlling entity) clearly seen now?

This is good good work Dee.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Hi Dee,

Dee wrote:
Concepts arise. They are recognised as concepts. They are sensations arising in the mind.
Belief is like a concept - it arises and passes away.
Thank you Dee.

Stepping up the observation process here:
Exercise: looking at ‘arising and passing away’.
Using whatever physical sense that is easier to work with, observe experience ... as it happens ... now ... just now.
Can ‘arising and passing away’ (of anything) actually be observed? ... Will get back to you

This was written a few days ago:
Dee wrote:
I noticed today when a person bumped into me twice in a shop - my space, I'm here. And when I'm busy doing things - home, work, perhaps on auto pilot.
Is this type of activity seen clearly now? ... Yes - lots of concepts, thoughts, ideas.

This also was written a few days ago:
Dee wrote:
Why must there be an entity in control? ... How do we manage to follow rules, learn complicated processes ...
These two simple exercises were given:
1. Standing up, arms along the body. The thought arises 'raise the right arm'. Does the right arm reliably rise each time the order comes? .... No. Surprising! But it makes sense. Thoughts do not control movements.

2. Another one: can the next thought be reliably predicted? .... No.
An answer was given: “I tried the exercises and it is clear. Thanks.”
Is the concept of ‘agency’ (controlling entity) clearly seen now? .... Yes. No controller.


All the best d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Can ‘arising and passing away’ (of anything) actually be observed?

Will get back to you

Take as much time as needed. This ‘deep observing’ is beyond the mandate of the present dialogue. It is offered as a pointer that there is much more in observation of experience than what has been touched on thus far.

Is this [...auto pilot] type of activity seen clearly now?

Yes - lots of concepts, thoughts, ideas.

Thank you for confirming.

Is the concept of ‘agency’ (controlling entity) clearly seen now?

Yes. No controller.

Again, thank you for confirming.

Well it looks like this dialogue is drawing to an end. And it's been a pleasure travelling this road with you.

This might be a good time to revisit a topic that was shelved.
Page 1: 6 elements practice. Can a link between seeing the utter absence of a “self”, and the ‘expansion, letting go’ experienced in the final stage, be seen?

And more generally, is there anything left unasked?

The next step is a series of questions. I’ll then ask other guides to look at this dialogue, and the answers to the questions, just to make sure nothing was left amiss.
Ready for it? :-)

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

A surprise - sensations are just there - rather than arising and passing away. They eye organ (concept) comes into contact with the object (concept) - both are just there! Work in progress.

6 element practice - absence of a self and the final stage. No concepts, no beliefs, so self, no non self.

There might be more questions. It may take a few days.

Many thanks. Ready for the questions? Yes please.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

A surprise - sensations are just there - rather than arising and passing away. They eye organ (concept) comes into contact with the object (concept) - both are just there! Work in progress.

Nicely spotted Dee.
More than a couple of years after being guided, observing experience is still a discovery here.
Welcome to a new way of looking at life!

6 element practice - absence of a self and the final stage. No concepts, no beliefs, so self, no non self.

And no comments here. :-)

There might be more questions. It may take a few days.

Anytime.

Ready for the questions? Yes please.

Great, so here goes.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

You can answer them all in one post, or one by one. As it comes.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Thanks for the questions - back soon!

Best wishes
D

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

All good?

Best
Dridhamati