Looking for a final push

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Yeah I can see what your saying, a person is just part of it, but it seems more complex because I can interact with a person more so than with an object. Although the interaction can be reduced to just the sense perceptions.

What cant be reduced to this?

Where do you end and someone else starts?

This is difficult to answer. I don't really know what to say, all that comes to mind is non-dual cliches but I won't bore you with those.

So have a good look and see what comes up – look for those perceptions.

Yeah in experience I don't know of 'eyes'. If I look in the mirror I see the colours of the eyes and the face (there is also no indication that the image in the mirror exists outside of the mirror, or that the image is a reflection). Then the belief that those particular colours are eyes and that if they are damaged there will be no more colours is thought, and of course I can't know that, it's just a future projection based on learned information.

Next time when you talk to someone you can observe this: There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'. But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Stand in front of a bigger mirror. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any? While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror? Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror? Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement? Or only thoughts suggest it? Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror. Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all? Or there are only colours and shapes? Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it? Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations? Start to walk slowly. Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

What cant be reduced to this?

Nothing, everything is just sense perceptions.

So have a good look and see what comes up – look for those perceptions.

Well, in the visual field there is this body, which can be reduced just to colour, where the body ends is determined by the colour. And the same can be applied to the 'other'.

Next time when you talk to someone you can observe this: There is a sound (voice of the other) and a sight that is labelled as the 'other body'. But, is there any link between the sound and the sight, meaning that the sound is coming from that sight (the other) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

No, the link between the sight and sound of the other body definitely doesn't exist.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

I'll do this later and report back.

xx

[Sarah7]

Ill post again when you have had time to look. OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Stand in front of a bigger mirror. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

There is no connection. There are sensations, and there as image in the mirror.

While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?

Nope, same as before.

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror? Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement? Or only thoughts suggest it?

It's like there is the sensation dimension and the sight dimension, the sensation of the hand doesn't happen in the same place as the sight of the hand, there is a sensation of a hand, and a sight of a hand, which sounds obvious but what I mean is, when I'm looking at the hand, that's not where the sensation is, the sensation is in sensationland and in the same way, the sight of the hand doesn't reside in the place where sensation is felt.

Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror. Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all? Or there are only colours and shapes?

Not at all, just an image. Just colours and shapes (which are the boundaries of colour), 'body' is just the name we give to this particular set of colour boundaries.

Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?

No knowledge at all, all that's known is the image.

Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?

If I look straight ahead with my arms down, I can't see my body at all, and all that's left is the sensations, which are imageless, so the image of the body now only exists in memory.

Start to walk slowly. Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

If I take only what I can see, and I look straight ahead (can't see the body), there is no body walking, and the world (the hallway) comes towards, and past me. And yes there are sensations too.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi
Some really wonderful looking here Daniel.
Play around with this for a while. Get used to questioning the reality of what thoughts say and what is actually experienced. Verify and test! Have fun!
Anything else you want to look at or anything else you are unsure of?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Yes I will.

I don't know if there is anything else, but I don't think I'm through yet.

I'll keep looking though.

Thanks xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

I don't know if there is anything else, but I don't think I'm through yet.

How do you know? What were you expecting? Are you waiting for thoughts to get it? Fireworks? What dont you know? Find the expectations and pull them all out - especially if you are a long time seeker - that may include everything you have ever read! Collected beliefs etc. Have a good look at those expectations! Bring them here and we can look together.

I'll keep looking though.

What is experinced here is that this does not stop.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

How do you know? What were you expecting? Are you waiting for thoughts to get it? Fireworks? What dont you know? Find the expectations and pull them all out - especially if you are a long time seeker - that may include everything you have ever read! Collected beliefs etc. Have a good look at those expectations! Bring them here and we can look together.

Well there is an expectation that it will be known at least lol. I mean, how do people take the step from seeking to blogging and talking as awakened. Common to all those that I've seen seems to be a cetainty, like there was a point 'there' where they were seeking, and a point 'here' where they are post-awakening and ready to bring everyone the good news. There must have been a point where you were seeking and now you're on here guiding people through, so there must have been some clarity at some point.

Also, there is an expectation that it will seem like everything is happening on its own, the movements of the body and such, and although I can see this is so, it's almost as if I only see it in moments where I look, it's not the default setting. I watched a video a while back from someone who came from this site and she said something like, 'Going through the gateless gate means that the burden is lifted', I suppose she means the burden of responsibility. Interestingly, she also said that she went through the gateless gate 'over the christmas holidays', which suggests a point at which she knew she was through.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Im not going anywhere till you are clear or do not wish to go any further – OK.

Well there is an expectation that it will be known at least lol. I mean, how do people take the step from seeking to blogging and talking as awakened. Common to all those that I've seen seems to be a cetainty, like there was a point 'there' where they were seeking, and a point 'here' where they are post-awakening and ready to bring everyone the good news. There must have been a point where you were seeking and now you're on here guiding people through, so there must have been some clarity at some point.

OK – so looking at that certainty or uncertainty – is it all thought based?
Is seeking still experienced? Is there a wanting of something else or something more?

Also, there is an expectation that it will seem like everything is happening on its own, the movements of the body and such, and although I can see this is so, it's almost as if I only see it in moments where I look, it's not the default setting.

What is experienced here is that looking continues. Was there an expectation that thoughts would shut up or become quieter? Now you ‘know’ that everything happens on its own – you seem clear on that – and it isn’t experienced like that because its not the default setting – well what would want that? What wants something other than what is? Can you see that?

I watched a video a while back from someone who came from this site and she said something like, 'Going through the gateless gate means that the burden is lifted', I suppose she means the burden of responsibility. Interestingly, she also said that she went through the gateless gate 'over the christmas holidays', which suggests a point at which she knew she was through.

Where is the burden you carry? What is the burden you carry? Is it there? Or is it simply a thought?
What else is there but this?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

I was expecting a clear finishing/starting point, a transition. Even those in the gatecrashers book seemed to have that.

But I can see that all of this is thoughts and I don't really have answers to your questions for that reason, but I feel the same as when I started and I don't want to be complacent and think I've got it when I haven't.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Again - Im not trying to get rid of you! And I agree - things need to be clear. So lets have a dig around and see where you are not clear. OK.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Outside of thought what else is there but this? Have a look.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Thanks for your patience lol.

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No.

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No.

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Definitely not.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes and sight, as colours.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No, there are just the senses, without an experiencer.

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No it can't be found, but it never could have been found, this doesn't seem like the great discovery that it's made out to be, and I don't feel that it changes anything.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No, I don't think it could be any more clear.

Outside of thought what else is there but this? Have a look.

Nothing.

The doubt I'm having stems from expectation. If this is really all that awakening is, I wouldn't even think about writing a book, talking to anyone about it, making videos, it's hyped up so much, which is what makes me think there must be something more, and that this can't be all it is.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Thanks for your patience lol.

None required!

The doubt I'm having stems from expectation.

Can you clearly see this now? Notice how many! Lots of collected beliefs – but all just thought wanting something other than what is!

If this is really all that awakening is, I wouldn't even think about writing a book, talking to anyone about it, making videos, it's hyped up so much, which is what makes me think there must be something more, and that this can't be all it is.

‘Makes me think’ LOL! What else is there but ‘this’?

Take a couple of days to get to grips with this – so to speak!
Look closely at the simplicity of ‘this’. See thoughts out of habit comparing, wanting, urging, distracting. See and notice that suffering is just thought wanting things other than what is happening right now, right here. This immediacy. Thought is not bad – it is only trying to protect – there is nothing to tame or contain here and no one to do it either!!!
Look at the change and movement that arises and falls away – how what is moves like the reflections across a mirror……. and yet what notices it all……what happens there?
Simply BE. Let the dust settle. Come back with anything noticed or any question that may come up! OK. Have fun!
Big hugs Sarah xxxx

[Raweir]

Ok yeah I'll see how it unfolds.

Thanks again for helping me xx

[Sarah7]

Havent finished with you yet!!!!! LOL
Let me know what you notice and then we can tidy things up! I forgot to mention thoughts being one of those things that come and go also along with other arisings - so notice that too!
Higs Sarah xxx