Looking for a guide

[Ezra]

Sight is the most polarising of the senses. One tip is to recall the science of optics -- how does sight happen (light hits the retina and is projected to the back of the brain where it is assembled and appears as a 3D image in consciousness)

This has actually been very helpful today. The mini-me you mentioned peering out through the eyes was precisely the experience I had yesterday. Being reminded of the mechanics of sight is helping me relax somehow. I can open up around the 'me'/'it' division.

" Again as you look around -- try to find WHERE is sight happening -- are there two things in the experience -- a 'me' that is seeing and an object that is seen?"

When I have remembered to do this today -and I hope this answer is not too general - but it feels like sight came into line with what I was experiencing with sound. The polarization I experienced yesterday was gone. I'm being very tentative in my language because I don't trust I've been looking closely enough. Maybe I'll come back to this later in the post...there's a lot to cover.

"Pont with your finger to all the objects you can see and label them, say . . . table . . . chair . . . book . . . floor . . . on and on around the room -- now point the finger back toward the eyes . . . what do you see . . . can that which is aware be labelled?[/quote]"

This is petrifying. I was dumb struck to find a finger pointing back at 'me'. And, yet, no, it didn't feel right to label the thing the finger was pointing at as 'me'. Again, I don't know how to fill in the detail. I just didn't find me but that sounds so easy to say and the experience is perfectly ordinary; not at all magical or 'spoon-bending' .It doesn't even feel life changing. So, what gives? Am I not looking closely enough?

I have a few questions for you. Is consciousness the same as awareness?
And, also, do you have anything to say about the attitude with which one should undertake this work. I feel like I'm tying myself up in knots straining to 'get'it and I'm wondering now if this is maybe more counterproductive and I should maybe try to come at it a little more lightly?

[Jack'n'theBox]

The mini-me you mentioned peering out through the eyes was precisely the experience I had yesterday. Being reminded of the mechanics of sight is helping me relax somehow. I can open up around the 'me'/'it' division.

OK another way in is the dream analogy. In the dream, does dream ‘I’ have an actual body with eyes, ears and other senses? Clearly not, yet in the dream, dream ‘I’ experiences thoughts, sensations and feelings just like waking ‘I’. Is there an inside/outside to the experience in the dream? Similarly is there an inside/outside to waking experience?

"Point with your finger to all the objects you can see and label them, now point the finger back toward the eyes . . . what do you see . . . can that which is aware be labelled?[

This is petrifying. I was dumb struck to find a finger pointing back at 'me'. And, yet, no, it didn't feel right to label the thing the finger was pointing at as 'me'.

OK good. As I said this is a koan – it is meant to be disorientating – it shakes up the ingrained, habitual patterns of interpreting experience. So don’t be anxious – just let the koan do its work. Remember a koan can’t be solved by the mind – stay with the sensations.

I just didn't find me but that sounds so easy to say and the experience is perfectly ordinary; not at all magical or 'spoon-bending' .It doesn't even feel life changing. So, what gives? Am I not looking closely enough?

Well ‘no-self’ is the natural state, as the Buddha says ‘all dharmas are empty of self’ – and that includes ‘you’. So yes it is ordinary. Why wouldn’t it be? But we would expect a shift in perspective. When the penny drops it is audible. So let’s push on.

I have a few questions for you. Is consciousness the same as awareness?

Well let’s not get lots in making conceptual distinctions – but for convenience sake, we could say that the capacity of the mind to get up on a Monday morning and make plans for the week is in the realm of consciousness – awareness itself has no agenda for the week – awareness isn’t invested in whether the laundry gets done or not! ‘Consciousness’ isn’t a thing though – it’s just an habitual set of conditioned behaviours and interpretative strategies. Very useful for navigating the weekly routine – but not to be reified as a ‘thing’ – and certainly not as ‘my self’.

And, also, do you have anything to say about the attitude with which one should undertake this work. I feel like I'm tying myself up in knots.

As I said before you don’t need to go for this like you are trying to win the marathon – the kind of attention you need is the relaxed, inquisitive, directed focus you would have when looking at a great work of art or beautiful scenery. ‘You’ can’t see through the self-view. When it happens, it’s not ‘you’ doing it – in fact when it happens it is precisely this ‘you’ which is seen through.

OK you seem sensitive to the energetic, sensation-based exploration of inside/outside – so let’s go further with this – try this exercise from Rupert Spira – and then once you’ve got the idea try to take this amorphous, de-centred experience of the body through into other activities – try the walking exercise again on the basis of having done the Spira investigation and let me know what happens:
http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/list ... n-the-body

[Ezra]

"try this exercise from Rupert Spira – and then once you’ve got the idea try to take this amorphous, de-centred experience of the body through into other activities – try the walking exercise again on the basis of having done the Spira investigation and let me know what happens:
http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/list ... n-the-body[/quote][/quote]"

I listened to the piece and took myself off on the walk a little later.
It was very easy to evoke sensing as he suggests in the exercise - like honey, then like clouds. My heart felt magnetized - filling up with feeling. Tears behind the eyes again. It just felt so opening.
A couple of times I experienced that visual dislocation; back to the mini me behind the eyes but I was able to gently let the thought pass.
This is going to sound a bit fanciful or romantic but at times the sound around me seemed to resonate inside me. I don't mean that quite literally (because I suppose that does actually happen) but I was experiencing sound in a way I never did before.
And thanks for answering all the questions yesterday.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK good work. As the Buddha says "In the heard just the heard" -- there is a directness to experience when it isn't filtered through the mental image of "me listening". Sound just happens. It simply is. No effort required. No boundaries to permeate.

So hear the ambient sounds around you hear the sound of the traffic, of the children. Can you hear the 'self' in the same way? Feel your feet touching the ground. Can you feel the self in the same way? Notice that internal picture -- the mental construct of a 'me'. Is it real or just an idea?

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Big difference. Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the various sensations that arise as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that references a 'me', that owns and directs the body that is separate from these sensations that somehow 'experiences' them.

[Ezra]

So hear the ambient sounds around you hear the sound of the traffic, of the children. Can you hear the 'self' in the same way? Feel your feet touching the ground. Can you feel the self in the same way? Notice that internal picture -- the mental construct of a 'me'. Is it real or just an idea?

No, today I didn't hear the self in the same way. The self resided in thought and was not connected to the broader world. And, no, I couldn't feel the self in the same way I could feel the ground under my feet. The self is an idea in thought and again, disconnected.
The 'me' that, particularly, popped up a couple of times today was habitual thinking I have about some relatives. I think they think I've made some poor decisions so I judge them back and think their decisions are poor. I kinda always knew it was silly but could see today how ludicrous it is. I put all this thinking energy into protecting an idea ('me') that i've committed to and built up over time. And it's just an idea.

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around. Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc. Is there a WHO living your life? Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life? Big difference. Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the various sensations that arise as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought that references a 'me', that owns and directs the body that is separate from these sensations that somehow 'experiences' them.

When I was younger there was a Wonderwoman show on tv. Wonderwoman flew an invisible plane - you'd see her sitting upright flying through the sky. As I was driving today I looked at the experience of sitting in the car; feet on the pedals, bum on the seat etc trying to find 'an end point' to the sensations. I could't find one. I felt like wonder woman in her invisible plane.
A few times I caught myself doing something and being unable to trace the thought that brought me to the action.
No, I didn't find a me today that convinced 'me' she was in charge. Also, the moments (and there were many) of being open to the symphony of sound and imagining that honey or cloud body were blissful and open.
Thanks J.

[Jack'n'theBox]

I put all this thinking energy into protecting an idea ('me') that i've committed to and built up over time. And it's just an idea.

OK great. But is this idea of me really something that the ‘I’ has built up – is there an ‘I’ separate from the idea that somehow believes it? Does an idea exist in time (I mean is it lurking somewhere in the background, or does it just arise when conditions favour it? Like when you are with your relatives?)

Also – how do ‘others’ turn up in your direct experience? When you meet a difficult ‘other’ – what are you actually encountering (shapes, colours, sounds, feelings, thoughts . . . ) – how do these sense impressions become ‘my annoying relative’?

As I was driving today I looked at the experience of sitting in the car; feet on the pedals, bum on the seat etc trying to find 'an end point' to the sensations. I could't find one. I felt like wonder woman in her invisible plane.

OK great. Thought says that I am a person in a body that does things (like drive a car) – but when we investigate we can’t find a ‘person’, a ‘body’ or a ‘car’!! How fun is that!?

Also, the moments (and there were many) of being open to the symphony of sound and imagining that honey or cloud body were blissful and open.

Yes notice that there are basically only two states – contraction and expansion – everything can be resolved into these two basic movements. Belief in self – or ‘selfing’ activity is always a contraction. When you notice selfing behavior, don’t judge it, don’t berate ‘yourself’ for failing to be more ‘open’ – selfing just happens (there’s no self doing it) – just notice that selfing is simply an energetic contraction – the noticing of the contraction is often sufficient to release that tension and return to expansion – expansion is actually the natural state.

[Ezra]

Hi J,

OK great. But is this idea of me really something that the ‘I’ has built up – is there an ‘I’ separate from the idea that somehow believes it? Does an idea exist in time (I mean is it lurking somewhere in the background, or does it just arise when conditions favour it? Like when you are with your relatives?)

Yeah, I think I get that - there is no separate 'I' who generates ideas. I think I get it.
And as for ideas arising; I reckon they arise when conditions favour it.

Also – how do ‘others’ turn up in your direct experience? When you meet a difficult ‘other’ – what are you actually encountering (shapes, colours, sounds, feelings, thoughts . . . ) – how do these sense impressions become ‘my annoying relative’?

This is great. I've been looking today and have been able to be surprisingly specific about what I find (a sense of deflation in the lungs, faster breathing in upper chest etc, darkness behind belly etc). It's very powerful to be able to see the sensation around emotional reactions. It gets me out of thought and the feelings unwind themselves.

Yes notice that there are basically only two states – contraction and expansion

Again, so helpful. Yesterday I spoke about disconnection, I think I called it, but 'contraction' works perfectly. I've had a tricky day today. Flashes of temper which surprised me as much as anyone else. No idea why. Time to sleep on it.

[Jack'n'theBox]

Great looking as usual Carmel. Ok can you answer these questions from how you currently SEE things (not what you think about them) and we'll see if anything comes up:


Have you been able to find, a “self” that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a “self” that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a “self” that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a “self” who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the “body” just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this “self”?

Is there a “self” ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the “self” is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

[Ezra]

Hi J,
I spent forty minutes or so tying my answer but got into such difficulty with the 'quotes' button I had to abandon it. So, I'll have to use regular quotes for this, I'm afraid.

Here we go.

"Have you been able to find a self that is the 'experiencer'?
No. I know what it is to work exclusively from the assumption that there is a self to whom stuff happens. When I look, I don't see that self anymore. I'm assuming I'm still mostly surfing on that wave of self but it is a very easy side step to take that opens everything out.

"Or a 'self' that is the doer, or can control what can happen?
I don't think so. I hesitate over this one and I'm not entirely sure why. When I look at my own life and the 'doing' I can't find a self but I still hesitate. I'll have to keep on searching with this one.

"Or a 'self' that 'makes' decisions?
No.

"Or a 'self' that "does the thinking'?
I'm finding tumbling thoughts, often subject to circumstance, or tied up with sensations in the body. I'm finding old habitual thoughts that seem to be very powerful but when looked at sometimes skirt away like a cloud in the sky. I'm amazed to, as of yet, not find a 'self' in charge here.

"Is the 'body' just another label for sensations (namely tackle and kinesthetic)?
Gosh, yes, I think so. That's aptly put.

"Are the five body sense made to arise or experienced by this "self"?
No. They just are.

"Is there a 'self' 'in here' which is separate from the world and others 'out there'?
No. And this makes me cry. Happy tears. I know exactly that sense of 'in here'; of feeling cut off. It's not the truth. The same buttons are here to be pressed; the same vulnerabilities but it is lighter now because there is no me at the centre.

"Is there any doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the 'self' is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
Yes, there is still some unclarity around 'doing". I'm not sure what's itching me here. I keep coming back to exercising the will - the alcoholic who stays sober for example- where does the vision and effort required come from- is it thinking?
Sorry, that's probably not at all clear and I'm so fuzzy on this one you may not get what I fail to get at myself. There's just some little stumbling block. Maybe a night's sleep again?

[Jack'n'theBox]

Is there a 'self' 'in here' which is separate from the world and others 'out there'?

No. And this makes me cry. Happy tears. I know exactly that sense of 'in here'; of feeling cut off. It's not the truth.

OK great. What is it that knows the truth of non-separation? Is it a conceptual knowing?

"Is there any doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the 'self' is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Yes, there is still some unclarity around 'doing". I'm not sure what's itching me here. I keep coming back to exercising the will - the alcoholic who stays sober for example- where does the vision and effort required come from- is it thinking?

Well do thoughts really have control? Let’s put your question another way: thought is happy to take credit for ‘positive’ personality ‘decisions’ – ‘I struggled but I finally overcame my addiction to cigarettes/alcohol/internet porn/chocolate . . . Isn’t that great!’ – but it tends not to take credit for ‘deciding’ to become addicted in the first place – ‘I was driven to drink by my abusive partner OR Cigarettes are my only stress release from the kids! If it weren’t for the kids I could stop tomorrow’ Etc. etc. on and on – thought telling stories.

If there is a self really in control – then why do people ‘choose’ to harm themselves and others through addiction in the first place? Some people also kill themselves – why would a really existing ‘self’ choose to end itself?

How does anything happen? In dependence on a vast array of causes and conditions. Is your ‘self’ one of those conditions? Look at how any action eventuates – it isn’t a mental event (a thought) but an energetic arising in the body. You can quite happily lie in bed with thought going ‘get up get up’ – but the body doesn’t move, until it does! Or you can lie in bed with thought going 'I need to go to sleep!' but the body doesn't go to sleep until it's ready -- can you 'choose' sleep?

Try this exercise to see this ‘energetic’ aspect to volition.

Find half an hour when you don't have anything to do and when you won't be disturbed. Sit quietly in a chair and think of some things that you could usefully do in that half hour -- tidy the room/make a coffee/do your nails/read the paper/do nothing. Now just sit and watch as competing thoughts arise and sense the strength of the volition or 'directionality' behind them -- notice how an idea can arise and gather energy and it ALMOST eventuates but then the energy falls away and a new idea arises. See that decision isn't a mental event -- but an energetic one. Now during this half hour you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none -- what happens during the half hour?

[Ezra]

Hi J,

I'm so sorry not to have posted yesterday. I'm afraid I'm ill again with a vomiting bug.
I've been working away but wasn't in any fit state to open up a laptop.

Find half an hour when you don't have anything to do and when you won't be disturbed. Sit quietly in a chair and think of some things that you could usefully do in that half hour -- tidy the room/make a coffee/do your nails/read the paper/do nothing. Now just sit and watch as competing thoughts arise and sense the strength of the volition or 'directionality' behind them -- notice how an idea can arise and gather energy and it ALMOST eventuates but then the energy falls away and a new idea arises. See that decision isn't a mental event -- but an energetic one. Now during this half hour you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none -- what happens during the half hour?

I did this exercise for the half hour but also with spending the day in bed got to watch decision-making more generally.
I'm not sure I completely 'got' the exercise. My difficulty was 'but, I'm not actually going to do any of the things that occur to me' so I didn't really see anything almost happen.
There was a lot more to see in looking at decisions generally. It seemed impossible to guess when, or if, I would actually do something. "Will I go to the loo now or in a minute?" - no idea what I was going to do. I didn't see thought play a part- so there seemed to be no internal dialogue around which was the best decision; "well, you should go
now while it's free etc'.
There was some times images-I might see myself doing something but I still couldn't predict if it was going to happen.I'm going to have to leave it at that, I'm afraid. Hopefully, I can go more deeply tomorrow.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK it takes energy to do things, right? Because action requires movement. What we are looking to see is HOW one specific action out of a possible many eventuates. Thought says 'because I had the idea/I decided/ I willed it'. Thought is claiming that it is a mental event that sets off a course of action. What we are doing is looking to see if this is the case -- or if something else is at work. Remember in the exercise you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none of them -- so look to see HOW any course of action eventuates. It's good that you've noticed that many actions -- 'just happen' without thought. We are looking to see if thought really causes action.

Let's simplify this exercise then -- take a black pen and a blue pen and a piece of paper. Now in the next five minutes you are going to take either the black pen or the blue pen and write your name. Observe closely -- what is it that determines which pen is chosen? What is it that determines precisely WHEN the pen is chosen. Focus not on thougths but on energy behind the movement. Is it thought that is controlling this energy? Is anything in control of the energy?

[Ezra]

Let's simplify this exercise then -- take a black pen and a blue pen and a piece of paper. Now in the next five minutes you are going to take either the black pen or the blue pen and write your name. Observe closely -- what is it that determines which pen is chosen? What is it that determines precisely WHEN the pen is chosen. Focus not on thougths but on energy behind the movement. Is it thought that is controlling this energy? Is anything in control of the energy?

I've just done this exercise twice.
The first time I could only see thoughts - nothing beyond that.
The second time - yes, absolutely, I could feel an impulse rising up(from the chest) many times about to choose a pen. It actually had me in kinks of laughter. It was so strange to observe and so clear. I didn't manage to pick up a pen despite several impulses for a while because I was giggling too much.
Great. I'm going to go back to the 'half hour' exercise again now and see if I have new results. Will post now in case I loose this but will be back later.

[Ezra]

Find half an hour when you don't have anything to do and when you won't be disturbed. Sit quietly in a chair and think of some things that you could usefully do in that half hour -- tidy the room/make a coffee/do your nails/read the paper/do nothing. Now just sit and watch as competing thoughts arise and sense the strength of the volition or 'directionality' behind them -- notice how an idea can arise and gather energy and it ALMOST eventuates but then the energy falls away and a new idea arises. See that decision isn't a mental event -- but an energetic one. Now during this half hour you are free to do any of the things that occur -- or none -- what happens during the half hour?

Ok. Just did this exercise again.
Similar to the pen exercise, this time I could feel a tickling energy arise in the solar plexus and spread to the limbs as the action was about to eventuate. Fascinating. Seems to be independent of thought. I couldn't see anything controlling the energy. Seems totally random.

[Jack'n'theBox]

OK great -- so where are we with this:

"I keep coming back to exercising the will"

Can you find this "will" that can somehow be exercised?