Seeking a Guide

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:52 pm

Hi Des,
Maybe a deduction.
maybe ? Is it a deduction or not ?
There is the experience of being here, so I deduce that someone is having the experience.
No, there is not experience of being here. There is experiencing sensation and experiencing of thoughts saying it is here. Right ?
Then the deduction of a someone having the experience is just more thoughts. Right ?
So is it correct to say that anything to do with an I, is nothing more than thought ?
But somehow the attachment to things gets revealed through them, or the thoughts are the result of the attachment.
Next time there is suffering just try to be aware of what it is happening. Try to catch how it started. What was the thought/event that triggered it. (Any strong emotion will do i.e. anger, happiness, sadness etc. Try to find the source and how it spread.)

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:11 pm

maybe ? Is it a deduction or n
ot ?
It is obviously the case that "here" exists. So the question remains, who am "I?" As far as I can tell, "I" am the one who knows "here" exists. So its a deduction and an experience, or from an experience.
No, there is not experience of being here. There is experiencing sensation and experiencing of thoughts saying it is here. Right
?
OK ... right. But isn't that how we KNOW we are here? Through those sensations ...by seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling the world, is how I experience it. When you take all those sensations away I go away. In dreamless sleep, I am gone, I do NOT exist, the world does not exist, there is nothing.
Then the deduction of a someone having the experience is just more thoughts. Right ?
the experience can be there without those thoughts, but not without the sensations. It may be a deduction that I exist because I am the one having the sensations. Or at least, my body is.
So is it correct to say that anything to do with an I, is nothing more than thought ?
I can see how the existence of "I" is dependent on a thought. Experience without that thought is just the experience ... like playing sports. "I" can get lost and just the experience is there.
Next time there is suffering just try to be aware of what it is happening. Try to catch how it started. What was the thought/event that triggered it. (Any strong emotion will do i.e. anger, happiness, sadness etc. Try to find the source and how it spread.)
I had one of those the other day. A strong emotional reaction to something that happened. I know what the event was, and what the thought was that triggered it. The thought about the event is what gave that event its negative implication. I am aware that it is my interpretation of events that triggers suffering. The suffering reveals the "I" in those events. If the interpretation is diffe

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:19 pm

Hi Des,
OK ... right. But isn't that how we KNOW we are here? Through those sensations ...by seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and feeling the world, is how I experience it. When you take all those sensations away I go away. In dreamless sleep, I am gone, I do NOT exist, the world does not exist, there is nothing."
Is not that knowing a deduction based on reasoning ?

If without that you don't exist, then you agree that there is only experiencing ? So there is no I, except as a deduction ?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:30 pm

Is not that knowing a deduction based on reasoning ?
Knowing happens out of the present moment, I suppose ... knowing has to do with remembering or expecting, past and future. When just present, there is whatever is present.
If without that you don't exist, then you agree that there is only experiencing ? So there is no I, except as a deduction ?
I see the logic of that statement, yes. "I" is a thought, a concept. Everything remains the same when that thought is not present, except for the lack of the thought.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:34 am

Hi Des,
Knowing happens out of the present moment, I suppose ... knowing has to do with remembering or expecting, past and future. When just present, there is whatever is present.
So, Is this "knowing" anything more than thought stuff ?
I see the logic of that statement, yes. "I" is a thought, a concept. Everything remains the same when that thought is not present, except for the lack of the thought.
We are looking for more than logic here. When you say "everything stays the same except for the lack of thought" you are guessing at the ramifications, but that's not the way it is. Those thought patterns are the result of years of conditioning, and most likely will take a little time to be replaced with new patterns.
So now you know the illusion of a Self exists, explain how it came about and what are some other (possible) ramifications of SEEing it ?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:32 pm

So, Is this "knowing" anything more than thought stuff ?
I suppose not ... as I look at it ... if I am in the present moment, there is not involvement of "me" but just what is. And knowing requires someone to do the knowing ... it implies a knower. So yes, knowing is just thought stiff.
We are looking for more than logic here. When you say "everything stays the same except for the lack of thought" you are guessing at the ramifications, but that's not the way it is. Those thought patterns are the result of years of conditioning, and most likely will take a little time to be replaced with new patterns.
Wouldn't replacing one set of thought patterns with another just keep me in the same place, the same illusions vis-a-vis the existence of a self?
So now you know the illusion of a Self exists, explain how it came about and what are some other (possible) ramifications of SEEing it ?
I think it came about from the consensus the world presents to us. Everyone believes in the self, it is the cornerstone of individuality in the world. Also, our egos will do anything to secure their own survival. We live in a world that requires an ego, even if it doesn't require identification with that ego.

Seeing the illusion of self would, to me, liberate one from some of the suffering associated with the attachment to the self. Also, the state that exists when all those "I"-involving thoughts are not present is highly energetic, seemingly more blissful.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:15 pm

Hi Des,

Sorry for the delay in response.

Here are the questions, take your time answering them. The more close to your experience you can go in them, the better:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:22 pm

Hi,

I've been delayed a bit as well ... work got busy and the weekend is busy as well. I'm going through the questions and will take my time answering.

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:30 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I know intellectually that there isn't, wasn't a separate self. It does continue to FEEL like there is one. But I can see how its really a collection of thoughts that wind up masquerading as a self.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It starts as an involvement in whatever is being experienced, an involvement that points to an experiencer that has a stake in whatever is happening ... good or bad. If I get praise at work, it feels as if there IS an "I" receiving that praise. Something inside is invested in me doing well, looking good, etc. and wants things to work out. Same thing for when something bad happens. There is always this thought, or concern for "me." Even as I learn that it is JUST a THOUGHT, it is still there persistently striving for gain, recognition, pleasure, etc.

As I have said previously, the existence of suffering points to the "I" who suffers. I know that the suffering is really just a story, a thought of how whatever is happening shouldn't be, how it is WRONG, I can see that thought pattern. But I cannot sever my connection to it. It makes me feel like its ME, even though I know its only a thought.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I feels pretty much the same, only that now I am better at seeing what is happening. There is the possibility that I may not be caught up in that thought process and that I may just disappear, so it is worth continuing to be as conscious as possible.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I have been trying to see this for a long time, have been "looking" for a long time ... can't really remember what the last bit was. Recently I had an experience in a relationship, a concern that arose. I used this experience as a means to see how thought patterns are automatic, how there are just the thoughts, and that once those thoughts dissipate its las if I dissipate with them ... but this doesn't persist. The next concern that comes along triggers the pattern all over again.
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience
Wow .... I could write a book on that. Free will is, without a doubt, an illusion. We have personal will, yes, but we have nothing to do with choosing it. Our will, our preferences, thoughts, etc. all arise from the same place, which is to say, they come from nowhere. No one can "choose" something they do not choose ... example, if you have no desire to buy a green and yellow scarf, there isn't a mechanism of thought that can switch on that desire. Desires just come to us. Will, etc. FEELS free, but it is not free, its not really ours.

There is just desire, just there in the space.... most of the time that space seems sandwiched to me, seems like there is no space, so therefore whatever is filling it, like a desire, feels like its mine .. or is part of me. But I can see now that when more conscious, I can see the desire in the space... its not actually mine, even though it feels like mine.

Intention is another one, people refer to having intention. And its true that we do not do what we want, or what we say, we do what we intend. But where does that intention come from? I would say that it comes from nowhere, or wherever desire, choice, will, etc. come from, and that it is NOT ours. There is just intention, that is it.
6) Anything to add?
I could ramble on, but the main thing for me to state is that I do see how the self is an idea and not real, But it still FEELS real, if that makes sense.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:05 am

Hi Des,

I have no more questions. I will check with the other guides and get back to you.

Love,
Akash

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:37 pm

Hi Des,
It does continue to FEEL like there is one.
Can you please elaborate a little on this ? What does the "FEEL" consist of ?
I feels pretty much the same, only that now I am better at seeing what is happening
Can you please elaborate a little on this ?
but the main thing for me to state is that I do see how the self is an idea and not real, But it still FEELS real, if that makes sense.
What does FEELS real consist of ? Go a little deeper in this.

How will this "FEELING" go ? How will you know it is gone ? Who is it that need to know this ?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:33 pm

Can you please elaborate a little on this ? What does the "FEEL" consist of ?
'm not sure I can. There is a reason the world, collectively, believes in the self. The illusion is so compelling that the world has no choice but to believe it. I don't mean to say I choose to believe in a self ... what I mean is that I have the experience of being a self almost all of the time.

When I talk to people I know who are in awakening, for lack of a better term, are awakened, they are VERY CLEAR that "they" do not exist in the way I experience myself as existing. If a desire arises, it is NOT THEIR desire, it is just there, in the space. They do not suffer as I do. They remain unattached to the desires, pains, pleasures, etc. They don't have to try to see it, or make some kind of effort to get something, there is simply no personal involvement in anything, just "this" existence, They actually 'get' themselves as the existence, the space, the context in which the universe exists.

So that is all theoretical to me, right? Since its something someone told me, and not my direct experience. My direct experience is that normally I go about from one activity to the next. Often there is no sense of "me" until some kind of concern arises. My relationship goes awry, my finances become stressed, something really fun or pleasurable happens, I get good news, etc. When these things happen, "I" show up and get VERY involved. I have to attempt, intend, try to see that these things are all thoughts, ideas, and that even the "me" in the events having the experience is an idea.

Furthermore, seeing that may or may not change anything. If something is really stressing me out, my egoic, personal involvement can be so rooted and strong that nothing loosens its grip.
Can you please elaborate a little on this ?
I mean that the perceived "me" is normally sandwhiched in with my experiences. It is "me" that is having something happen to him. But there is intention to lose the identity, to peel apart the sandwich and just be, so that the thing that is happening is just happening, and not happening to me. I am getting better at finding that. And I have to find it, it takes some effort to NOT be in the normal space.
What does FEELS real consist of ? Go a little deeper in this.
"Feels" means the presence of emotions and feelings ... sensations in the body. I see how all those feelings are just thought structures, have no real substance, they are ephemeral ideas and that is all. I get it. But they STILL HURT, or they STILL FEEL GOOD ... the more hurt, or the more good, the more of "me" gets involved and experiences it like its happening to me.

I just don't know how to put this any clearer.

There is a difference between intellectual understanding and realization. I may understand how to play the trombone, using the slide to shift overtone series and the embouchure to separate the notes themselves ... but I cannot DO it.
How will this "FEELING" go ? How will you know it is gone ? Who is it that need to know this ?
I can only guess at this. I would say everything will be the same except that there will be no personal involvement. "Des" will just be the mind-body vehicle experiencing things in this world. It has experiences but "I" would not, because there would be no perceived "I."

Just a guess, some conceptualization based on what I can surmise.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:43 am

Hi Des,

What is the difference between what is happening now and a experience ?

Is there a experiencer in this moment ?

Is there a self involved while breathing ? While seeing ? Or is seeing and breathing simply happen ? These are happening in now, is there a doer there ?

if you look back there will be a label of self
but now in this instant it is simply seeing or breathing.

Can you relate to this ?

Love,
Akash

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Desideratum
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby Desideratum » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:00 pm

What is the difference between what is happening now and a experience ?

An experience could be said to imply an experiencer ... but that may not really always be true. The word "experience" is used to refer to something that happened in the past, or even the present. But in truth there is perhaps no real difference.
Is there a experiencer in this moment ?
There wasn't until I read this question, which reminded me to self-reference and thus "find" the experiencer.
Is there a self involved while breathing ? While seeing ? Or is seeing and breathing simply happen ? These are happening in now, is there a doer there ?
These tings, and perhaps most things happen with no experiencer, no seer/breather, etc. But once the idea or an experiencer is brought forth or conceptualized, it appears.

I guess that is pretty good evidence that the self is an idea. Because being or having a self is not something that happens on its own, it happens when something triggers the thought or idea.
if you look back there will be a label of self
but now in this instant it is simply seeing or breathing.

Can you relate to this ?
Yes ... it seems the "doer" appears when you look for a reference, past or even present. If you do not look for that doer, then there is just what is happening.

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akamad007
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Re: Seeking a Guide

Postby akamad007 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:19 am

Hi Des,
But in truth there is perhaps no real difference.
I do not wish to know what the truth is. I want to know what is your experience of this statement. In your experience what is the difference between what is happening now and in a experience.
What the truth is or how it should be, is of no relevance. Only what is your experience right now is.

Are you CLEAR that there is no self ?
What about desires that arise?
Now in this moment what desires have you created ? Or do these desires simply arise and take the label of I ?
Same thing with suffering. Do you create suffering willingly ? If no how can you own it ? If it simply arises is it yours ?

Love,
Akash


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