A bit worried about this process.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
Again some well noticed observations.

That's a good point, I see what you're getting at. Weight, length, etc are aspects of an object that thought is inquisitive about. This information is not provided from looking, and again thought wants more than there is.

Check this if you haven’t already by looking.

Initially no, and then when labeling starts, yes.

OK. Now see how often you notice this beforeness (my word before thought steps in! LOL).

know this has really nothing to do with what you're trying to help me with here, but

You are very welcome Rich. Keep me posted about hearing!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I've been trying to have a look at hearing for the past couple of days. It's definitely more tricky to see how exactly hearing is experienced. Every sound is followed by a "what's that sound' question. Or with familiar sound the label immediately pops into my head. It's hard to noticed but there is a gap between hearing a sound and thought coming in with its labels etc. There is not a dividing line between sound and the hearing of the sound, only between the hearing and the thought " I'm hearing that sound" if that makes sense. So it feels truer to say that hearing is just happening. That describes the experience of hearing better than saying I am hearing a sound. Thought comes in very quickly, quicker than with sight, but now I've noticed how it happens it seems more obvious that hearing is just happening.

When I really look, beforeness is happening all the time it's just that when I'm not looking or forget to look I miss it sometimes and it feels then like there is a hearer.

I'm going to spend a bit more time looking at this.

Take care

Rich.

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

I've been trying to have a look at hearing for the past couple of days. It's definitely more tricky to see how exactly hearing is experienced. Every sound is followed by a "what's that sound' question. Or with familiar sound the label immediately pops into my head. It's hard to noticed but there is a gap between hearing a sound and thought coming in with its labels etc. There is not a dividing line between sound and the hearing of the sound, only between the hearing and the thought " I'm hearing that sound" if that makes sense. So it feels truer to say that hearing is just happening. That describes the experience of hearing better than saying I am hearing a sound. Thought comes in very quickly, quicker than with sight, but now I've noticed how it happens it seems more obvious that hearing is just happening.

Well seen about how quick thoughts are and prevalent! Keep looking and have a look at different sounds – what happens if the sound is a way off – or up close? Any difference?
So is there any separation between a ‘you’ and a ‘hearing’? Found a distance between?

When I really look, beforeness is happening all the time it's just that when I'm not looking or forget to look I miss it sometimes and it feels then like there is a hearer.

Is there a ‘you’ forgetting or missing stuff? Or does that just happen? LOL Can you see the habit or ‘me’ being the hearer?
Let me know what else you notice!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,
Sorry for not posting for a while. The truth is I've been sidetracked with other things going on in my life at the moment. I know I'm not giving this the attention that's required but there doesn't seem to be a lot I can do about that currently. So if it's OK with you I would like to continue but may not post as often as promised. If that's not OK please let me know. Even when I'm not posting I'm trying to look at the things we've talked about, so I'm still with the programme - so to speak.

So is there any separation between a ‘you’ and a ‘hearing’? Found a distance between?

OK. I've had a more on depth look at hearing, and I've found that hearing just happens. That is to say that whatever the sound, near or distant, hearing just happens all on its own. I suppose it's just a product of the biological hearing sensors that we all have (as long as they're working). As long as there is a sound, hearing happens. There is no need for a hearer. Even if my mind is lousy with thought, hearing still happens. There is no need for the 'I am hearing this ' thought, hearing just continues regardless of whether thought is commenting or not. I've noticed that thought can fill my mind but I can still hear sound. This means that hearing doesn't need thought to recognise it for it to be.

It's like seeing really, I can't stop seeing by thinking "stop seeing" or stop hearing by thinking "stop hearing". These things continue regardless of thought. It just happens, there is nothing to be done about it. I can close my eyes I suppose, but then I only see the inside of my eyelids!! Or I can block my ears but then I only hear a distortion of sound. I can't really stop either sense. Even when asleep I wake up when a light is turned on, or a loud sound is heard.

Look forward to your next post,

Take care, Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

Sorry for not posting for a while.

Its up to you Rich, but if you haven’t time – then maybe its not the right time for this. Im happy to continue if you want to.

OK. I've had a more on depth look at hearing, and I've found that hearing just happens.

So is there a separation between you the sound and the object making a sound – or you the distance and the sound? Can you find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer? Where does one start and the other end? Are we clear that ears cant hear and eyes dont see?

OK so on to touch!

Touch the table with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. How do you know its there? What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?

Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two? Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.

Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist? How do you know they are there? List your direct experience. Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Where do you end and table starts? Can you find a separation between ‘you’, the touching and what is being touched? Try with eyes shut first.

Can a face, hand or foot know or experience something? Can a face, hand or foot hear, taste, smell or see these words? Or are the face, hand and foot known and experienced along with everything else?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to try very hard to carry on with this. I really want to get through it because I want to know what it's like on the other side. I want to feel what this new perception will be like. Having come this far, I have no great expectations just a desire to discover what lies beneath the onion peel !! So if you're happy to put up with me for a bit longer ........

Are we clear that ears cant hear and eyes dont see?

Er ... No. Not exactly! But now you come to mention it, this gives me a new direction to start looking in. I'll investigate this further. I may need to back pedal a bit to check this out.

Take care,
Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
Whatever you want is fine by me Rich!

Are we clear that ears cant hear and eyes dont see?

Can eyes actually see? Do ‘they’ do the seeing? Do ears actually hear? Test this!
Don’t forget the touching exercise!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah
I've looked again at the looking and hearing exercise you gave me. It's quite clear now that eyes don't see and ears don't hear. It's sort of like saying that a window sees the view. The window doesn't see anything, the view just passes through it. Same with eyes they are just a gateway to seeing. Seeing seems like its a thing put together by the mind. So is it mind that sees. Or does no one actually see? Is it just a perception that the mind puts together based on sensory input? I dont know what the answer to this is yet.

Exactly the same for hearing.

I've not done the touch exercise yet. Im going to have a look at that tonight.

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich

I've looked again at the looking and hearing exercise you gave me. It's quite clear now that eyes don't see and ears don't hear. It's sort of like saying that a window sees the view. The window doesn't see anything, the view just passes through it. Same with eyes they are just a gateway to seeing. Seeing seems like its a thing put together by the mind. So is it mind that sees. Or does no one actually see? Is it just a perception that the mind puts together based on sensory input? I dont know what the answer to this is yet.

OK – so now verify who does the seeing? Can you find a you doing the seeing? Or is there just seeing? If there is a you doing it – where is this you?
There would have to be separation then for a you to be there and an object that is seen. A seer, the seen and the seeing. Can you find any of those? Or is that all thought?
Where does seeing happen – over there or here? And even those words are labels!
What actually is experienced? Do you experience the mind? Or do you experience thought?
Do you experience eyes being the gateway? Or is there just seeing with a lot of thoughts about? Look to experience!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hello again Sarah,

OK – so now verify who does the seeing? Can you find a you doing the seeing? Or is there just seeing? If there is a you doing it – where is this you?

Right I've tried to get to the bottom of this, and probably get to the bottom of all other sensory experiences at the same time because I'm guessing they are all going to end at the same place? When seeing happens, I see things through my eyes. When I said the eyes were just a gateway, I meant they were just like an instrument that was designed for light input - they don't see they're just a tool. So what or who sees? Well, I can't find a seer. It took a bit to look at this, but I see now that it can only be thought that sees. Thought labels and comments and interprets what comes through the eyes. It makes up stuff about what comes through the eyes and this is labeled as seeing. If I were blind, I'm sure I would have an impression of the world through other senses. What things "looked" like would be imagination, which is thought. Or, if I was not blind from birth, it would be largely memory, which is also thought.

Also, I've noticed that seeing kind of stops when attention is elsewhere. For example, if I 'stare into space', thinking about some distant memory, even though my eyes are still open, I don't actually see stuff anymore. I'm aware of light but there is no seeing really going on. This is more obvious when the same kind of investigation is done with hearing and touch. For example, if concentration is elsewhere, and someone says something to me, I miss what they said. I can sit on a chair or lie on a bed and be completely unaware of the touch of my body on the chair or bed because attention is somewhere else.

Hope this makes some sense. The only question that arises is :

If seeing and other sensory perceptions are thoughts, then why are other people's perception of the world so similar to mine? Or do the same kind of thought processes arise in everyone given a similar sensory input? This is thought asking obviously!

Take care,
Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
When seeing happens, I see things through my eyes.

Ok is that what is experienced? Or what is thought? Think of a screen. now look at seeing. What else do you know apart from the seeing?

Well, I can't find a seer. It took a bit to look at this, but I see now that it can only be thought that sees. Thought labels and comments and interprets what comes through the eyes.

Lovely. Keep looking when remembering happens.

Also, I've noticed that seeing kind of stops when attention is elsewhere.

Ok check this. Attention may be elsewhere BUT does that mean seeing and hearing doesnt happen?

If seeing and other sensory perceptions are thoughts, then why are other people's perception of the world so similar to mine? Or do the same kind of thought processes arise in everyone given a similar sensory input? This is thought asking obviously!

How are others separate from seeing? Or hearing? Also how do you know they see things and. Hear the same? Outside of what you experience, what else do you know? Outside of thought what do you know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Hi Sarah,

When seeing happens, I see things through my eyes.

OK I can't help thinking you've taken this a bit out of context. It's just one sentence in a whole paragraph where I tried to explain what I've noticed about the nature of seeing.

Also, I've noticed that seeing kind of stops when attention is elsewhere.

Ok check this. Attention may be elsewhere BUT does that mean seeing and hearing doesnt happen?

Do you mean that seeing and hearing are continuous but are only noticed or paid attention to when thought is not taking attention somewhere else? If this is true then seeing and hearing are not thought but are separate to thought. Thought just comments on them when attention is given. So that would mean it's not thought that sees!

How are others separate from seeing? Or hearing? Also how do you know they see things and. Hear the same?

I don't understand this question how are others separate from seeing? That's not what I said. I said why are other people's perceptions similar to my own? I know this is true. Otherwise how would I be able to talk to anyone about something we are looking at eg a tree, and not notice that they were seeing something entirely different?

I can talk to people and watch them doing stuff that I do everyday and I know by listening to what they say and observing what they do that their interpretation of the world is roughly the same as mine.

I'm finding this a bit frustrating if I'm honest.

Take care
Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Roch
OK I can't help thinking you've taken this a bit out of context.
Oopps! LOL.

Do you mean that seeing and hearing are continuous but are only noticed or paid attention to when thought is not taking attention somewhere else? If this is true then seeing and hearing are not thought but are separate to thought. Thought just comments on them when attention is given. So that would mean it's not thought that sees!

Does thought see or interpret? OR does seeing just happen and so do thoughts? Are they both just part of what is? What do you actually experience?

I don't understand this question how are others separate from seeing? That's not what I said. I said why are other people's perceptions similar to my own? I know this is true.

You don't. That's a thought. Check yourself. I am not about persuading or replacing beliefs here. You must verify everything yourself. Ok what this means is are others separate from seeing? When you look 'out' with the seeing exercise you said there was no separation outside of thought. OK so now looking at 'another person', is there separation?

I'm finding this a bit frustrating if I'm honest.
Can you say to which bit Rich? You can stop at anytime you want here. We will be looking into everything here and challenging everything. If it is not what you want now that's fine. Let me know Rich.
Big hugs Sarah xxx

[decoyplankton]

Sarah,

You don't. That's a thought. Check yourself. I am not about persuading or replacing beliefs here. You must verify everything yourself. Ok what this means is are others separate from seeing? When you look 'out' with the seeing exercise you said there was no separation outside of thought. OK so now looking at 'another person', is there separation?

I read your post and stated to wonder what I was trying to achieve here. Everything that you've posted recently seemed beyond my understanding. I admit, and I know you picked up on it, that I was ready to quit.

I read your last post again just before going to bed, and I tried to see what I was missing because we seemed to be stuck on some basic point. When you said " looking at another person, is there separation? " I wasn't sure what you meant. I still don't quite know if I get it or not. I then had a pretty intense realisation about the connectedness of everything and everyone. I'm not sure if this is what you wanted me to see. I couldn't help thinking that that can't be it. That awareness and seeing and hearing etc are just there, part of life as it were. And that everything that lives is ultimately connected but we just don't realise it most of the time. This made me laugh a lot - I couldn't help it. It's like the tentacles of some giant sea anenome, each one thinks it's a separate entity because they can't stand back far enough to see the obvious connection.

Anyway, yes I do want to carry on - see what more comes. Of you're happy to. You are right about it may not be the right time for me. But I want to see how it goes for just a bit longer.

Rich

[Sarah7]

Hi Rich
You notice more than you realise! And you are doing real well!

I read your last post again just before going to bed, and I tried to see what I was missing because we seemed to be stuck on some basic point. When you said " looking at another person, is there separation? " I wasn't sure what you meant. I still don't quite know if I get it or not.

Remember the looking exercise you did a while back where you had to see if there was a seer, seeing and the seen? Well just replace the object for a person. I would repeat it here but I'm on my iPad and haven't quite got to grips with using it yet! LOL. So when you look or notice seeing can you find the seer, or the seen, or is it all part of seeing? Can you find a line where seeing ends and the seen starts? So you looked first at an object- yes? Now look at someone else. Try looking at your reflection in the mirror. Is everything seen on the screen of seeing? Please let me know if this is still not clear.

I then had a pretty intense realisation about the connectedness of everything and everyone. I'm not sure if this is what you wanted me to see. I couldn't help thinking that that can't be it. That awareness and seeing and hearing etc are just there, part of life as it were. And that everything that lives is ultimately connected but we just don't realise it most of the time. This made me laugh a lot - I couldn't help it. It's like the tentacles of some giant sea anenome, each one thinks it's a separate entity because they can't stand back far enough to see the obvious connection.

Yes. Where does the wave end and the ocean start? Which reflection is not part of the mirror? Where is the line between the river and the stream? LOL. Now outside of thought and is there any separation? What says that can't be it? Would that be thought again?

Anyway, yes I do want to carry on - see what more comes. Of you're happy to. You are right about it may not be the right time for me. But I want to see how it goes for just a bit longer.

Of course. This doubt - Is it made up of thoughts? When those thoughts are not there what is the feeling then about what is happening? Is there a few thoughts creating a story about what Rich can and can't do? What power does thought have?
Hugs Sarah xxxxx
Rich