The Gate

Hola Hare

Thanks a lot, while check that out later. Also will reply to the post soon. Here I am still in the geographical north!

:)


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Hi Akita,

Commiserations on the loss of your aunt. Strangely, my aunt also died yesterday at 95. I think she was ready to go, but there is still loss.

I'm really sorry about your loss too.

I have asked for help from admin, hopefully someone will be able to to sort you out. Let me know if you still have a problem. They are wonderfully efficient and responsive in my experience.

All is fine now! Thank you for your help.

Does 'Akita' exist anywhere other than in memories, thoughts and stories?

I've re-read this question several times, to make sure I understood. This is because my reply is: no, Akita doesn't exist anywhere other than in memories, thoughts and stories. In fact, I don't even have a sense that she exists as such in memories, thoughts and stories, because they don't exist either.

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?

How would I know that I have seen it through, fully and completely? Do I have to feel anything special? Would I do things differently? Would I feel special or unimportant?

Or,
Would I just be able to let go more easily?

Let me tell you... Honestly, sometimes I have a sense that the world and all in it is upside down. As if the whole world where just made up of stories and nothing were real. We all struggling and at times fighting over ideas, beliefs, ways or doing things... And missing the point ... I feel real sad about it... Yet, still unable to communicate differently, without coming across as "defending", above anything else an ideology or an idea. Simply because the suggestion of "letting go" and start again appears as a belief in "doing things in a certain way."

Not sure I'm making sense...

With love,

This made my heart feel warmth

:) Akita

Oopsss! I was quoting and left Akita in the greetings section. It should say: Hi Hare...

Hi Akita!

Always good to hear back from you.

I have asked for help from admin, hopefully someone will be able to to sort you out. Let me know if you still have a problem. They are wonderfully efficient and responsive in my experience.


All is fine now! Thank you for your help.

Great, glad that's sorted - thanks to Bill, (am v impressed by the admin folks on LU).

no, Akita doesn't exist anywhere other than in memories, thoughts and stories. In fact, I don't even have a sense that she exists as such in memories, thoughts and stories, because they don't exist either.

Great answer! :-) Couldn't have put it better!

When the “I” has been seen through, fully and completely, what's left?


How would I know that I have seen it through, fully and completely? Do I have to feel anything special? Would I do things differently? Would I feel special or unimportant?

Or,
Would I just be able to let go more easily?

Good questions...and yes, it's simple! You would just be able to let go more easily!

I'd like to quote a fellow guide here from another thread (in fact it's Bill again), who puts this very well.

"Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state.
Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it.
I can't convince you of it, in fact the only way I can help is to point you
in the right direction to look so you can see it for yourself.
You have to do the LOOKING.
it is through direct experience that it is seen.
I want you to look with fresh eyes at the truth of common everyday experience.
Like a child sees... without any bias.
Its not hidden. Its been here all along in fact its never not been here....
Its just a shift in perspective.
Do not expect fireworks. they may not happen. Each person is different.
Our life situation does not magically turn to constant bliss.
And all of the emotions we have had in the past are still here..
it just seems there is much less stickiness to them...

...This Looking is done always in the right here and now. If there is a key, that is it.
It's not in thinking about it or trying to figure it out... the mind can't understand it anyway
Watch yourself, your mind, keep trying to find the 'answer'.
I can tell you to let go of this but its very difficult to do.
But let go. Just LOOK right here and now.
What is here? Thoughts, sensations, feelings, joy, pleasure, pain, visual stimuli, sounds, judgements, etc...
Allow them to be. Just allow. None are wrong, all are 'what is'.
Only in this present LOOKING at what is, can we see that the self is just an illusion."

Let me tell you... Honestly, sometimes I have a sense that the world and all in it is upside down. As if the whole world where just made up of stories and nothing were real.

YES! :-)

We all struggling and at times fighting over ideas, beliefs, ways or doing things... And missing the point ... I feel real sad about it... Yet, still unable to communicate differently, without coming across as "defending", above anything else an ideology or an idea.

Seeing through self-view is 'what it says on the box' - it is simply a shift in view. The self is seen to be a fabrication of thought and language, with no inherent existence whatsoever. However the habit of 'selfing' - acting as if there is a self to defend, promote, or whatever - goes on. It's the habit of a lifetime and unlikely just to go up in a puff of smoke! However this samskara does begin to weaken, through not being fed by the fixed idea that self actually exists. There is a different point of reference and as Bill says, less 'stickiness' in it all.
Thought will probably go on doing its thing, trying to figure it all out. Let it! The seeing hasn't happened in thought. Always, the seeing is in DE. Again, there is a different point of reference, where thoughts can be seen as - well, simply thoughts! In the thought, only the thought....

Simply because the suggestion of "letting go" and start again appears as a belief in "doing things in a certain way."

Yet at the same time it's natural just to relax and be with what is. Maybe thoughts about letting go can sometimes help to nudge us back into DE, but ultimately the idea that we have to 'do something to make it happen' is just thought doing its thing again.

Is 'seeking' happening? If there is seeking, what is being sought?

With love,


This made my heart feel warmth

Yes, love happens! Thank you! Joy arises :-)

x Hare

Hi Hare

Good morning, good afternoon.

I'm writing from an airport with a heavy heart. I'm experiencing pain and trying to relate to it as a DE.

There are several questions arising... Who is in pain? Is there just pain? What is it? I'm looking carefully because on my way to the airport I could feel reacting to different things (mainly to the price of the taxi fare) from that place, the place of pain... What I notice is that there is just that, an impulse to react ... As if I were defending something or somebody through reacting... As if the taxi driver were causing the pain I'm experiencing right in the middle of the chest,where the heart is.

Then, the impulse to react and complain (nothing could be done anyway, because these are set fares)... Started to fade away, bit by bit and relief could be felt. I suddenly "saw" how vain and empty the reacting was... And how the reacting could promote, as it were, separation and even conflict with the taxi driver. Instead, even though I didn't feel intimate, something happened and I could feel a bit closer, or at least at peace and able to see the taxi driver as a human being not someone trying to take more money than what the ride is worth for -according to what? Who knows?

Is that what we call let go?

I'm about to board the plane ... I would like to continue exploring things further and get back to you later today...

Thanks for helping me out Hare

A grateful Akita...

Hi again!

Thanks for this post, I'm just going out but will read and respond later.

Meant to send you this earlier but looks like I didn't actually press submit:

It would help me to hear your response:

How do you stand with this enquiry now? Is there a belief in a separate ‘self’ remaining? Have you seen through that, as an illusion?

Love x H

Hi again,

Thanks for your message from the airport. Sounds like more 'selfing', as explored in previous post - habitual reactions rolling on, arising and passing away. But less 'sticky' than they once would have been.

Go well,
x H

Hi Hare... good afternoon... good evening...

Here I'm responding to the e-mail you didn't send... :-)

How do you stand with this enquiry now? Is there a belief in a separate ‘self’ remaining? Have you seen through that, as an illusion?

I appreciate you asking this question, because I'm curious myself and that's why, in a previous message, I asked: how would I know whether I've finally seen through the illusion...

You sent me an interesting reply, quoting Bill...

The bit from Bill that got me thinking was something like 'one is expecting fireworks...' and 'sometimes is so ordinary that once can even miss it'.

I'm not exactly quoting him as I don't have direct answer to that mail whilst I'm writing this one.

In some way, the above made a lot of sense. Sometimes I think I'm seeing through the illusion of self... but then when I asked you about the experience at the airport, you said:

Sounds like more 'selfing', as explored in previous post - habitual reactions rolling on, arising and passing away. But less 'sticky' than they once would have been.

Then, my question remains... how would I know? Could you give me an example?

Bye4Now

Akita :-)

Hi Akita,

Thanks for your post.

how would I know whether I've finally seen through the illusion...

It may help to read the following a couple of times and make sure you are clear, check if you don't understand something.

The seeing happens in DE, not in thought. It may be a flash, a glimpse, or a gradual dawning - a clear seeing that the self simply does not exist (anywhere other than as a thought or construct - which is nowhere!). Once the child peeked and saw that it was Dad, not Santa, who brought the presents to the foot of his bed, he would never go back to believing it was Santa..

Can 'you' go back, having looked and seen - or not seen - to belief in a fixed, independently existing self?

Dropping self-view doesn't lead to a permanently altered state of consciousness, or to be permanently in DE. We will still be involved, time and again, in the content of thought.

It doesn't stop reactions arising in the moment (feeling affronted by 'being ripped off' by a taxi driver), based on the life-long habit of belief in self. We can call this 'selfing'. The continuation of 'Selfing' doesn't mean that you haven't seen. Once the self-view has been dropped, you will most probably continue to experience these kind of reactions, just like at the airport:

What I notice is that there is just that, an impulse to react ... As if I were defending something or somebody through reacting...

This is a good example of selfing. Even though the idea of self has shifted, for most people, these old behavior-habits still arise. But you didn't get stuck in that habitual response, you went on to describe how that impulse faded away. This is a good sign. Once self-view has been seen through, these impulses may even be more vivid, but they will more easily dissipate, just as you described. They don't 'stick' the same way.

I suddenly "saw" how vain and empty the reacting was...

Once self-view is seen through, this tendency towards selfing, not being 'fed' by the idea that there really is a self to defend, has more chance, gradually, to be let go of.

What we are looking for here is purely a shift in view - nothing else. Same experiences (expensive taxi fare), different interpretation.

OK, this is kind of 'theory' and necessary to clarify. But let's not get too caught up in thought / understanding.

Now get right back to looking in DE.

As you sit here in front of your computer, look and see right now, in DE, if you can find the 'central character' in the "story of you (/ me)"?
How about your personality..?
Right now, can you find any fixed self or entity, whatsoever, in any shape or form?

Enjoying the journey :-)
H

Hola Hare!

Still here... The non-existing Akita, has been busy all morning -since very early. Will write as soon as I can -later today.

Love

Akita :-)


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Hola, non-existing Akita! ;-)

Until later...

love Hare

Hola Hare:

Here a bit busy existing but non-existing Akita...

Once self-view is seen through, this tendency towards selfing, not being 'fed' by the idea that there really is a self to defend, has more chance, gradually, to be let go of.

Perhaps today I had a very strong experience of something of the above. Over here there is an issue that pushes all my buttons... my psychoanalyst would say that it "touches the tender wound left by an original triangle", obviously involving my mother and father... the thing is that it seems that I can't help it... each time my buttons are pushed in that direction I react, usually in an automatic pilot and usually quite badly...

Well... it happened today... I started a kind of a tantrum in an automatic pilot... few minutes later (may be 4 or 5), all of the sudden the thought occurred to me: to whom is this happening? who is reacting? is there someone really hurting? is there someone wounded in here?

And ... pang... it stopped... it felt as if coming back from a sudden and quick bad trip... I can't explain what happened. It was as if nothing made sense... the reacting, the feeling ... it wasn't 'me'... I realised that nothing was really happening or happened before... I truly felt like a puppet that had been manipulated from somewhere... it felt like breaking something that had me chained to a little mini-me whom was ordering how to react, what to think, what reality create, or what mommy or daddy issues have... There was a bit of relief mixed with shame -I wasn't alone, you know...

I felt a bit shaken ... and still wondering 'what on earth happened?'

Then it also occurred to me: 'this is not going to happen again.'

What we are looking for here is purely a shift in view - nothing else. Same experiences (expensive taxi fare), different interpretation.

I really hope so... because there are many instances during which I can see how much suffering I cause by reacting in an automatic pilot, once the mommy and daddy issues are pushed...

Today I have the strong sense that something happened... that something was cleared... there was no 'me' to be angrily defended...

As you sit here in front of your computer, look and see right now, in DE, if you can find the 'central character' in the "story of you (/ me)"?
How about your personality..?
Right now, can you find any fixed self or entity, whatsoever, in any shape or form?

Because I'm so fresh from the experience... I don't feel there is a central character, there is no story, there is no personality... there is no fixed self or entity... and it feels really weird...

Really weird...

Love

Akita :-)

Hi Akita,

Thank you for sharing your experience.

something was cleared... there was no 'me' to be angrily defended...

No. In reality, nothing to defend. No longer the false view of self making the puppet jerk this way and that..liberating!

It feels like time to ask you the following questions. Please answer them as fully as you can. Take your time. If you like, just respond to one or two at a time. Please re-read what you have written and check that you have answered what is being asked (for example on the 5th question, there are a number of aspects to it.)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Enjoy!

Respect and love,
Hare (a doe kind of hare ;-) )

Hi again,

Just looking again at your post - please clarify, before you go on to look at the above questions:

it occurred to me this is not going to happen again

What is happening here in DE? What is 'me' and what is this thought occurring to in DE?

H

Hola Hare

First of all, let's have a look to the following question:

What is happening here in DE? What is 'me' and what is this thought occurring to in DE?

that refers to something I said

it occurred to me this is not going to happen again

It referred to a kind of knowing ... when I was dropping the 'throwing a tantrum', I knew, as a felt experience, that such a thing (the tantrum) is not going to happen again because I could see that there wasn't any 'self' or 'identity' to defend and that I was like Don Quijote, fighting the mills, or reacting to ghosts, so to speak.

I felt it in my bones, as a body-based experience, quite profound actually ... it translated as 'this is not going to happen again.'

Does it make any sense?

Love :) Akita

pd. will reply to each of the other questions in separate posts. Hope is ok with you. Thanks a lot.