The Gate

There is an occasional feeling that comes up that there should be a big sign or flashing lights (or something) to tell me that this is real! :-D

eheh, what can make this unreal?
Even if all hell breaks loose, will there be a self there or just the experience of the flames? ;-)

Keep looking and telling me what is happening, please, while you are processing all this. See if doubts or questions pop up and bring them here. Or, if you don't have doubts or questions at the moment - if there is a 100% certainty that the self does not exist in reality! - I can ask you the LU standard questions and we can see if there is still unclear things we need to look at.

Sandra

Even if all hell breaks loose, will there be a self there or just the experience of the flames? ;-)

lol - I hope I wouldn't waste time getting the self out!

Keep looking and telling me what is happening, please, while you are processing all this. See if doubts or questions pop up and bring them here. Or, if you don't have doubts or questions at the moment - if there is a 100% certainty that the self does not exist in reality! - I can ask you the LU standard questions and we can see if there is still unclear things we need to look at.

I'm not sure whether to give myself more time to process this - earlier I felt sure it would be best to leave it a few days. However, there is no self right now, I'm as sure as I feel able to be; maybe it would be a good idea to have a go at the questions... (I feel like I should have the sense of certainty about no self that I have when I've finished eg knitting a sock! However, when I was a sock knitting newbie, I didn't feel as confident about knitting socks as I do now anyway...)

Slightly perplexed, but feel fairly confident about proceeding! :-)

Beverley.

I'm not sure whether to give myself more time to process this - earlier I felt sure it would be best to leave it a few days. However, there is no self right now, I'm as sure as I feel able to be; maybe it would be a good idea to have a go at the questions... (I feel like I should have the sense of certainty about no self that I have when I've finished eg knitting a sock! However, when I was a sock knitting newbie, I didn't feel as confident about knitting socks as I do now anyway...)

Slightly perplexed, but feel fairly confident about proceeding! :-)

I don't wanna fling a half "cooked", doubtful "no self" through the Gateless Gate... I want to read yes! I'm absolutely certain that there is no "I", there never was an "I" and there will never be an "I" before asking the questions!

Look to this concept *doubts* and tell me what you see. What are the *doubts* made of and what makes them appear?

Where and when are you expecting a self to pop up? In the future? As an entity inside the body? As a thinker? As a decider? As a "real" story? How could a story be real?

If you see no self, what could make you believe that the self exists? Are you expecting the self to knock at your door soon? Has this happened before?

Sandra

Look to this concept *doubts* and tell me what you see. What are the *doubts* made of and what makes them appear?

The doubts are caused by a half-experienced fear that, if I commit, someone is going to come along and wallop me. Also, this is strange territory.

Where and when are you expecting a self to pop up? In the future? As an entity inside the body? As a thinker? As a decider? As a "real" story? How could a story be real?

I actually don't expect it to be 'me' - undoubtedly this sounds bizarre beyond words! I am confident that this (being here now) is what this being is beyond / under the story of Beverley. I am wholly confident that Beverley was a story (I didn't realise this until now). If I think about it / when there seems (for a little while) like there might be a bit more to a 'me' thought than just a thought, it isn't 'Beverley', it's something else. Like a hostile takeover.

As a "real" story? How could a story be real?

Me not being Beverley feels like a story too (I can't explain this). I don't expect 'Beverley' to turn out to be under this story, this story is true-er than the Beverley story, but it still isn't TRUE, somehow.

My first impulse was right, I should just let myself assimilate this for a few days!

:-S

Beverley.

The doubts are caused by a half-experienced fear that, if I commit, someone is going to come along and wallop me.

Can you talk a little more about this fear? Is this fear justified if you look to what is happening now?

If I think about it / when there seems (for a little while) like there might be a bit more to a 'me' thought than just a thought, it isn't 'Beverley', it's something else. Like a hostile takeover.

Why a hostile takeover?
Can you find something happening now that shouldn't be happening? What?

Me not being Beverley feels like a story too (I can't explain this). I don't expect 'Beverley' to turn out to be under this story, this story is true-er than the Beverley story, but it still isn't TRUE, somehow.

Yes, I agree. It's also a story, a way of looking, perceiving.

My first impulse was right, I should just let myself assimilate this for a few days!

:-S

Dear Beverley, it happens perfectly as it happens. Could it be any different?

Sandra

Can you talk a little more about this fear? Is this fear justified if you look to what is happening now?

No, it's not at all justified right now. I need to work through this...

Why a hostile takeover?
Can you find something happening now that shouldn't be happening? What?

I think these feelings, on the couple of occasions I've had them, have just been imagination / thoughts. Right now there is nothing happening that shouldn't be happening.

Dear Beverley, it happens perfectly as it happens. Could it be any different?

I am calmer again today, things feel fine.

I started going to a yoga class today (hence why I'm so shattered right now!). It was a very relaxing and calming class and afterwards (and during) I felt so peaceful. ANYWAY, throughout the class, there was no self and it felt right - my vague concerns that I might be unable to cope and interact without somehow reconstructing a self were unfounded. Another self there was obviously putting a lot of effort into protecting and promoting the self, it was interesting.

:-)

Beverley.

From the way you see it now, what causes the illusion of being a separate self? Why does it happen? How would you explain this to someone that never heard about these subjects?

From the way you see it now, what causes the illusion of being a separate self? Why does it happen? How would you explain this to someone that never heard about these subjects?

Phew! I would suggest it's because we see everyone else doing it as we're growing up. We begin being told we ALWAYS have to have an opinion (even if we don't have one, don't want one and can't see the point of one). Then you just get into the stream, like everyone else, of defending your opinion as if your life depends on it! If you aren't constantly *doing* something ('appropriate'!) and thinking something / anything (mostly a fixed anything that you get told off for changing), then you attract all sorts of disapproval, abuse, etc. You are taught that your ideas and theories and doing 'appropriate' things are the most important aspects of your entire existence. Then, when people challenge these ideas (occasionally even in very polite and gentle ways!) it's a threat to your existence and pushes you even deeper into protecting the self which is formed by these thoughts. It's kind of scary (yes, these are a thoughts! ;-) ), remembering instances of it, and how it happens, and how threatening it felt when I first heard the suggestion it wasn't true.

Beverley.

how threatening it felt when I first heard the suggestion it wasn't true.

Is it still felt as threatening?
What can be threatened now? Have a look. What is here that can be hurt?

Is it still felt as threatening?
What can be threatened now? Have a look. What is here that can be hurt?

It was very threatening when I first heard about it, but that was a LONG time ago. My recent experiences have taught me to welcome the idea of the disappearance of the self (although I do get some fearful 'me' thoughts).

When I was walking the dog today, I felt like I was a traveller in my body - the body was walking, I had nothing to do with the movement. It occurred to me in a deep kind of way that I could just sit down and not move and life would carry on (of course, no part of me / life wanted to just sit down and not move at that point).

Right now, there isn't any fear here.

:-)

Beverley.

It was very threatening when I first heard about it, but that was a LONG time ago. My recent experiences have taught me to welcome the idea of the disappearance of the self (although I do get some fearful 'me' thoughts).

Can the experience of the disappearance of the self happen in reality?
Or only the experience of thinking (and believing for a while) that the self disappeared?
If there is no self - how is the search going on? Any self in sight :) - what can disappear?

Right now, there isn't any fear here.

Wonderful. And if fear appears remember to look at it, don't be afraid of the fear (like all experiences, fear will pass). Look and see if a self is causing the fear; if fear is happening to a you or if fear is just one more experience (a mix of thoughts and sensations) that is happening in the moment, to no one.

When I was walking the dog today, I felt like I was a traveller in my body - the body was walking, I had nothing to do with the movement. It occurred to me in a deep kind of way that I could just sit down and not move and life would carry on (of course, no part of me / life wanted to just sit down and not move at that point).

I know what you mean, it's a great shift in perception, I felt it too. In fact this can lead to an exercise:

Be this self, that is suposed to exist, for a while. See if this you (that is suposed to exist) can use its free will (that is suposed to exist), to stop everything and leave the flow of life. Don't move. Don't even blink or scratch the itch! Can this you stop life from happening? What can the all powerful self do?

Can the experience of the disappearance of the self happen in reality?
Or only the experience of thinking (and believing for a while) that the self disappeared?
If there is no self - how is the search going on? Any self in sight :) - what can disappear?

lol - the mirage of the self disappears. There is a feeling difference, but (apart from occasional fear thoughts) it's not that different from when the mirage of the self was there and fully believed in. Thoughts disappear, thoughts about how 'I' have to be, have to stand up for my'self', etc...

And if fear appears remember to look at it, don't be afraid of the fear (like all experiences, fear will pass). Look and see if a self is causing the fear; if fear is happening to a you or if fear is just one more experience (a mix of thoughts and sensations) that is happening in the moment, to no one.

I am getting pretty good at this, though I won't pretend I enjoy it! "What if...?" thoughts seem to be some of the most tenacious!!!

Be this self, that is suposed to exist, for a while. See if this you (that is suposed to exist) can use its free will (that is suposed to exist), to stop everything and leave the flow of life. Don't move. Don't even blink or scratch the itch! Can this you stop life from happening? What can the all powerful self do?

I will do this. :-)

Beverley.

Looking forward to know how that goes! :)

Be this self, that is suposed to exist, for a while. See if this you (that is suposed to exist) can use its free will (that is suposed to exist), to stop everything and leave the flow of life. Don't move. Don't even blink or scratch the itch! Can this you stop life from happening? What can the all powerful self do?

It had an effect! ... My body got really tense and uncomfortable... lol

It had an effect! ... My body got really tense and uncomfortable... lol

lol... How did the looking for the self go?
Why do you say "my body"? Do you experience someone inside the body (or outside the body...)? Have a look.
1 - Where is this you that owns the body? Does it exist?
2 - In that experience of the you trying to stop what is happening, what can the you stop or control?
3 - In that same experience, can you find something that depends of the existence of a you to happen? Examples, please!