The Gate

Hello Vince -

Thanks for stepping in to assist.

Please tell me how life-ing is for Pete yesterday and today ?

There is and has been a lot of tightness in chest off and on yesterday and today. It is as if an emotion really is bottled up inside. It feels like sadness sitting atop fear. Over the past two days there have also been moments of great ease in the same area but the sensation is very brief. I told my wife yesterday that if seems as if I'm at some sort of crossroads but I cannot put any more words to it than that. Just 8 days ago I got an insight of wholeness that was like nothing I've ever experienced or expected to experience. The two days following were very blissful (I was at a meditation retreat). I mention that because today while on a walk I realized that the connectedness experienced those few days was completely gone. The sense of the experience is no longer there. It happened, the sensation was there and 'I' saw me as life but now the feeling of is-ness isn't there. I share this to help answer the next question.

Also tell where and what you think went wrong (if anything) ?

I cannot pinpoint exactly when the wholeness fell away but there were feelings of confusion, hurt, and disappointment when we began talking about the experience. I felt as if my experience was being questioned/doubted and now it was necessary to prove the authenticity to others. I recognize now that I was reacting from the perspective of 'self' and old habit patterns that reside within 'self'. At the time getting the 'approval' of others irritated the hell out of me. Even now there is conflict with this habit-feeling occurring within my 'self' and the knowledge that the feeling is nothing more than life. That the feeling is not me anymore than any other thought or emotion. But instead it is life expressing itself as it always has. What is wrong now is the fully embodied truth of this now only exist in my head as logic rather than the 'duh, it's always been like this' feeling experienced last weekend.

Susan mentioned 'character trait' and I like to know if it is ok to talk about this. It may be helpful for this effort.

G'day (as they say :) )

Pete

Hi Pete.

Thanks for stepping in to assist.

Ok, responding to this is a great example of the difficulty of communicating...
Of course, at a 'normal' social level the response would be; "No worries Pete, I am happy to help."
That is appropriate and true. (at that level)
Even speaking to another 'awakened' person, i would probably say the same thing, but both of us would 'know' that there was no decision or choice made by the I that was mentioned, that the I was just a thought construct and that the "happy" was literal and the result of compassion.
During our 'interaction', i will sometimes spell out this stuff and sometimes not. Just as i allow the use of a lower case i to indicate that its' use is a language tool and not a literal Self being referred to. You will see above the words know and normal in single quotes. This indicates that it also is not a usual meaning that is meant. (probably because there is no word in our dictionary to more accurately depict what is meant)
You can take what is written as very specific. Please answer every question.

I like to know if it is ok to talk about this.

Yes, nothing is irrelevant. Ranting is good. Best if you don't edit what appears for you. Just spill it. There is no right or wrong answers.
Actually, i am more interested in what arises for you as you contemplate the questions, than answers to them.

It is as if an emotion really is bottled up inside. It feels like sadness sitting atop fear.

This is perfect. First thoughts are often more revealing than considered responses. They have more credibility.
How many years of conditioning is behind Petes' current character(istics) ?
What is happening now is brain re-wiring. Old neuronal pathways atrophying and new synaptic connections being established. Some of this will happen (almost) instantly, when Aha! phenomenons occur, and others will take the rest of your life, and anytime in between. It's a good idea to be unconcerned about the outcome. It can only distract us from current experiencing.

I realized that the connectedness experienced those few days was completely gone.

Ah yes. Impermanence. Experiencing is NOW and ever changing. An experience is a memory of the past. Just thought stuff.

as if I'm at some sort of crossroads

Is it a sense of imminence ?

I got an insight of wholeness

The experience (of the insight) might have been fleeting but the consequence of it can never be undone. How might these consequences manifest ?
Oh, and investigate expectations for ideas of anything permanent.

I felt as if my experience was being questioned/doubted and now it was necessary to prove the authenticity to others.

Can you see the process of defending a Self here ?

I recognize now that I was reacting from the perspective of 'self' and old habit patterns that reside within 'self'.

This is a partial answer to that last question. Do say more on it please.

and the knowledge that the feeling is nothing more than life.

i get what (i think that) you mean, but this is an opportunity to really clarify something. Is there anything aside from current experiencing that is not thought stuff ? Thoughts ABOUT things ?

But instead it is life expressing itself as it always has.

This is the same 'issue'. How do you know this ? Is it current experiencing, or even memory of an experience ? ..or is it just a (good) story ?

fully embodied truth

Here's a rant about truth. http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=truth
It's easy when Seeing that there is no actual Self, to switch identification to Truth or Life or God etc.
Pete, have a rant of how identification might work ? What are the processes that might occur ?

love

vince

Good Afternoon -

The ground rules are helpful.

How many years of conditioning is behind Petes' current character(istics) ?

52

Is it a sense of imminence ?

Yes. It is not if but when. The sensation is very much like crying only it doesn't make it that far. Like having to vomit but can't. It came up very strong this morning at church. Since last night it's felt scary and I just want to pull away from everything and hide. While making lunch today there was an urge to just stop this whole spiritual quest.

The experience (of the insight) might have been fleeting but the consequence of it can never be undone. How might these consequences manifest ?

my experiences have led to a negative connotation to the word 'consequence'. Is it safe to assume it is instead meant as something that occurs as a result of or after an experience? i'll answer from the latter. I don't know. Perhaps greater awareness of perspective available more often.

Oh, and investigate expectations for ideas of anything permanent.

Will do. As of now most awareness of this comes as a thought rather than as a fundamental understanding of life and be-ing. Here's another way to say it, i've read it in books and seen it on videos so i know it from learning perspective. However i don't feel or know it as experience or something felt.

Can you see the process of defending a Self here ?

Absolutely.

I recognize now that I was reacting from the perspective of 'self' and old habit patterns that reside within 'self'.

This is a partial answer to that last question. Do say more on it please.

My Self feels broken and inadequate. Some of the defense/coping strategies in which i engage are; anger, distraction, and deflection. i also use knowledge (book learning) and work performance to cope. Most experiences happening in the present moment are colored by expectations of criticism and doubt. In short, i'm hearing, processing, and responding to life based on the experiences and conditions of the past rather than the reality occurring presently. As i write there is a struggle within my 'self'. i am already preparing to see a response deriding me for having these broken and wrong/inadequate thoughts. Preparing to defend myself. However there is also a spot further back behind these thoughts reminding me that these are only thoughts. Byproducts of experiences of the past used solely to protect a self created by other thoughts/experiences.

and the knowledge that the feeling is nothing more than life.

i get what (i think that) you mean, but this is an opportunity to really clarify something. Is there anything aside from current experiencing that is not thought stuff ? Thoughts ABOUT things ?

No, thoughts are simply thoughts. Feeling update....i 'know' this but don't live it. It twists my insides that 'i know' it but don't experience it.

But instead it is life expressing itself as it always has.

This is the same 'issue'. How do you know this ? Is it current experiencing, or even memory of an experience ? ..or is it just a (good) story ?

To me, 'knowing' is book knowledge. Now that i've said that though i don't know how to convey the sense of 'Knowing as truth' or be-ing, or is-ing. There have been (unconscious) moments in my life when I have been life. Long drives in the car is the first example i can come up with for that. Recently there have been moments when I was life AND I was aware of it. Not as an ego i but as an I that just was. i don't know how to explain it any further than that. So to answer the question, it was an experience happening. The writing was the memory of the experience. Thought alert!!!! Memories are thoughts too. Seems really obvious now that it is written down. Had the same experience when telling Susan about finally getting that thoughts and emotions aren't me either. More thought alert rambling...it is difficult to convey to others when a concept or mental understanding is finally realized as an experience.

fully embodied truth

Here's a rant about truth. http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=truth
It's easy when Seeing that there is no actual Self, to switch identification to Truth or Life or God etc.
Pete, have a rant of how identification might work ? What are the processes that might occur ?

Let me read the article and then I'll respond to this one.

Feeling alert...i did not want to respond to this or do any other spiritual work today. That said, now that it is done, it feels ok.

More later,

Pete

Question - The feeling of anger that began last week is constantly just under the surface and is boiling at a moments notice. There have been episodes like this in the past but this is much different in that these are very pointed, alive, intense, and brief. The anger episodes from the past were blind, painful, and went on for lengthy periods. Could these be outburst be associated with this effort? I'd like to think that it is my ego fighting for its life. If it's not that then it supports the 'there's something wrong with me/I'm broken' tape that lives in my head. Crikey, it's weird to write this stuff when thoughts aren't anymore that just thoughts.

Also, I've read to Joan Tollifson on the blog page. The description of present moment is bang on to what was going on 8 days ago. There was just be-ing. This is what i was trying to convey with the statement of 'fully embodied truth'. Just be-ing. LOL, now after reading your stuff regarding truth i need to re-address and the role of self in truth.

Goodnight.

Good Morning -

Just finished reading the 'close but no cigar' thread. There were many 'yes', 'oh my', 'i know that feeling/thought' experiences while reading. There was a part about the recognition of no 'i' in the present moment that hit home. It provided an 'aha'.

The past week has been a series of uncomfortable knots in my core. i told myself the story last night that it seemed like i was collapsing in on myself. That I gone from an sense of spaciousness to a dense ball of 'me'. Upon reading Will's passage there was a brief but intense sense of (personal) truth and peace. Then of course the thoughts wanted to come out and play :)

Sitting here with this beautiful morning letting thoughts pass by each individual moment.....it makes my heart smile.

Don't want to ruin the moment with more typing/thoughts. Going to 'be'

namaste

Pete

Good Morning Pete.

The feeling of anger that began last week is constantly just under the surface and is boiling at a moments notice.

As hard as it might seem, and as much as it is counter-intuitive, the anger is your friend.
Sit with that for a moment.

It may be misguided, but it it trying to protect you (the story of you) from threat.

I'd like to think that it is my ego fighting for its life.

This is most likely.
Try this; get into a meditative state. Just a few breaths is enough. Then acknowledging that your anger is doing its' best for you, ask it what is it attempting to achieve.
Grab the first thoughts that arise. Don't question them. Assume that they are correct and sit with them for a moment. Just allow. ...and see what happens.

Big changes occurring...

love Namaste

vince

Greetings Vince -

Try this; get into a meditative state. Just a few breaths is enough. Then acknowledging that your anger is doing its' best for you, ask it what is it attempting to achieve.
Grab the first thoughts that arise. Don't question them. Assume that they are correct and sit with them for a moment. Just allow. ...and see what happens.

Here's what happened. After a few minutes of sitting, calling for, and waiting for the sensation to arise, we had a conversation.
Hello, i feel you. Why are you here? silence.. What is your intention? silence.... What are you trying to achieve? silence.... It's ok to be here. Are you here to help me? -'I'm here to protect you'- From what? -'From all the meanness. I give you time to protect yourself'- I get an image of a dense ball then another of an armadillo looking animal all balled up. Why do I need to be protected? -'because you can't handle the real world'- During the exchange the feelings of tightness and cramps in my chest are very active. Rolling, tensing, and relaxing repeatedly. Continuing, i said, why can't i handle the real world? -'Because you are too fragile. It's too tough and you will get hurt'- Two things happen here; first, recognition that this feeling is just another form of thought; second, that it seems really ironic that a self that doesn't really exist is being hijacked by a thought that doesn't really exist. Back to the conversation. I recognize you now as a belief or a truth that isn't truth to me anymore. You are like Santa Claus.

I'm losing the details of the exchange now. The chest sensations dissipated and a numbing sensation arose around my jaw. After a moment, it disappeared. i continued to sit and listen and shortly after the numbness went away there was a sensation across my belly. It followed the outline of my diaphragm. No pain, just a slight vibration/tingling. i continued to sit for another few minutes but nothing else significant happened. As i sit typing now there is sensation in my upper belly. Not bad or good it just is the loudest thing i am sensing.

Today in general has been spacious. Mind and body are at ease and open and have been all day. It took a while for the anger sensation to arise and in retrospect worry that it was inorganic and just another story. Now that i've written that i have to laugh because even if it was organic it would still be a story. What a crazy story...and the fact that i've shared this with a total stranger is beyond words. It seems unbelievable that this level of openness has happened.

Have a great night.

Pete

G'day Pete. Excellent. Revealing isn't it.

why can't i handle the real world? -'Because you are too fragile. It's too tough and you will get hurt'

This is a story that most likely originated a long time ago. It may have happened as a result of what someone said, or how they behaved. It most likely happened when you really were vulnerable to the hurts of the world. Most likely when you were a young child.
No matter, it is a story that was probably an exaggeration then and certainly isn't true now. Because these things get buried and never examined they persist.
Shining the light of examination on them as you did in the exercise will go a great way in allowing them to be dropped. They are of course conditioned into 'you' (the story of Peter) and how this works is that events and situations that support these stories are noticed and focussed on with the object of confirming their validity.
Another area of brain re-wiring that will happen.

it seems really ironic that a self that doesn't really exist is being hijacked by a thought that doesn't really exist.

Being pedantic here to point out some subtleties, That Self does exist, not as an independent or separate entity, but as a story. A story that has been reinforced since you were able to understand language. ...and that thought is real too, but the content is also story.
It seems that the job of thoughts is to maintain the story.
That is simplistic though. That story is useful, or at least a better version of it is. ..and (some) thoughts also have a benefit. Impossible to navigate daily life and communication without it. Let's just drop the dysfunctional parts of it. Those that obscure appreciation of what is Real.

...and the fact that i've shared this with a total stranger is beyond words. It seems unbelievable that this level of openness has happened.

(tears of joy here) Get used to it. The WonderFullness of it. The 'freedom' of not having to defend the (illusionary) Self anymore.

love & joy

vince

Hello Vince -

It''s 1:20 CST here in Omaha, Nebraska and this is what's going as of this moment -

Lots and lots of thoughts regarding truth, belief, real, reality, stories, self, ego, sensations, and pointers. Hard to know where to start so i'll start at this moment.

Words are vocal intonations we use to communicate. Inherently they are nothing more than symbols. This is helpful for me to understand that they really provide the most value when they are seen as pointers. From here it makes sense why so many wisdom, spiritual, philosophy, and etc.. guides are filled with metaphors. The common example I've seen explaining this concept is that of someone pointing at the moon. Ok, so it must be the same with the chair. Yep. The cat? Yep. How about something that is not tangible? Thought? Sure, it can also be a pointer. How about a series of thoughts, a story? Yep, why couldn't it be another pointer. Now what? What is everything pointing to? Is it a bunch of different things or is it one single thing? Now the idea of non-dualism, space, and life come to mind. Are all these things pointers/metaphors for life? For wholeness? Now I'm thinking 'what does the word life point to?'. Crikey, does this ever end? :D

Back to the words/symbols; truth, belief, reality. These are words used quite a bit by many people in many scenarios. After reading your blog and the blog of the 'Ruthless Truth' i really wanted to understand the difference and similarities of the words so i looked up and read some writings concerning truth by Richard Rose (i really like this website mysticmissal.org) and Thich Nhat Hahn. i thought this would help the story of Pete get more clarity.

They all seem to point to something that is fundamentally important whether seen from the viewpoint of an individual or society as a whole. i found myself wanting to tie the foundation of the meaning back to one carrying it. Sort of the my truth, belief, reality etc is different than yours. However that goes contrary to what i believe the definition of truth is. Now look at all the contradictions i just wrote. What i believe truth to mean? i've got no clue what it means. Are we getting too caught up in specific definitions? If words/language are in fact symbols then where do these words point? What are the pointers trying to communicate to us? i don't pretend to 'know' this either.

While writing this 'story' i've had glimpses, or another way to say it, flashes of images. They were images but the message that came with it was 'is'.

Upon reflection, this reminds me of the Joan Tollifson writing in your blog. The idea of everything be-ing or is-ing. I wanted to say with be-ing with no coloration from the mind story but that doesn't seem right as it 'is' as much as anything else. Similar to what you said in your response this morning. Let me find it...

Self does exist, not as an independent or separate entity, but as a story. A story that has been reinforced since you were able to understand language. ...and that thought is real too, but the content is also story.

Maybe the 'point' is being able recognize and 'be' or 'is' all the stories of life rather than becoming lost within the stories.

Thanks for listening,

Pete

Hi Vince - I need to take a break from this for a few days please. I just had a discussion with my wife that has me feeling more open than I was prepared for. If it is ok with you I will reach out again once I'm ready to continue.

Thanks,

Pete

Of course Pete, i'm eagerly waiting your return.
PM me if you want to talk privately.

love

vince

Greetings again Vince -

That didn't take as long as i thought it would.

Here's what happened. My wife shared that she had been reading the LU thread. This wasn't out of the blue. i had been explaining to her what has been going on the past week or so and this came out while we were talking. When she told me this 'the I that is the story of Pete' felt completely exposed; naked to the world. I wanted to crawl away in a hole and hide. My first reaction was to go to the site and change my password. Seeing what I was doing she reminded me that it was a public site and nothing was hidden. This is where it really hit me. It was like being hit with a huge flash that knocked the crap out of me. What happened next is what is most surprising. I didn't get mad, I didn't blame, I didn't do any of the things i would or could have done in the past. Mostly act like a spoiled kid stomping and storming around. Instead of all the 'normal' reactions, I just told her that I felt really vulnerable right then and wasn't prepared to be that feeling. This is also when I sent the note about taking a break.

It didn't take much sitting to recognize the fear as the story of being exposed as flawed. Now this is silly in many ways because i've come to know this about myself for a bit now and have had many discussions with her about it. None the less when she said she had been reading the thread it was a surprise. Then to be followed up by the realization that not only had i was being open to you but was also opening up to anyone that was willing to look. This left my insides twisting and turning in a manner difficult to describe.

After some time an image appeared of a chunk of meat on rope hanging over a tree branch . It took a while before a story came up about this. It was a flawed me exposed for all to see and devour. More interesting stuff...I recognized it as a story. After a bit more sitting, i recognized that if that meat was devoured the only thing that would be gone would be that story. The story may arise again but it would still be just a story. I've decided that instead of a mind in my head i have Hans Christian Anderson :)

It then occurred that the appropriate challenge would be to put this story to the test in the daily stories. To let the me with all the stories 'hang over the branch' and experience/know that 'the story that is Pete' would still exist.

Last night and today have been interesting. Absolutely no anger at all but also no feelings of great joy. Kind of numb. No knot in the chest but instead occasional tingling/vibrational sensations in my core. It was a day of gentle growth and reflection.

I am not afraid to share with you or anyone else that cares to read. It is a story, no more and no less.

bowing,

Pete

to clarify

It then occurred that the appropriate challenge would be to put this story to the test in the daily stories. To let the me with all the stories 'hang over the branch' and experience/know that 'the story that is Pete' would still exist.

To bring this teaching to my daily life. Allow myself to learn/experience that i will continue to be no matter what.

Ah Pete, tears of joy here.
Truly a transformation.
What better test than a real world challenge.
Of course, conditioning can linger until those old neuronal pathways atrophy, but it will be less frequently and less intense with each exposure of it. Each time it is Recognised.
As far as the world seeing it, if they knew it was you (how many Peters are there in the world) why would an assumption that something negative would come of it ?
Story here is that others would be inspired to something better.
Heart open and great joy for Pete here...
Oh, and it occurs to me that friends and family (hello Mrs Pete) usually react in one of two ways. They will simply not notice any change in you, almost a denial, or they will apply pressure for you to return to the familiar person that they knew.
But once SEEn, the delusion can never be taken as Real again. Can you imagine any possibility that you would start to believe in Santa Clause again ?

What happened next is what is most surprising. I didn't get mad, I didn't blame, I didn't do any of the things i would or could have done in the past.

Beautiful. ...and consider was this change the result of effort or choice or a decision ?
Are emotions like thoughts in that they just arise from nowhere and fade to nowhere ? (certainly we can have stories about cause and effect - but can it be more than thoughts ?)

not only had i was being open to you but was also opening up to anyone that was willing to look.

ok, here's a big one Pete. i don't exist (for Pete). You take your interaction with some squiggles on a screen and build a story of vince.
Everyone that you are not currently experiencing is a story.
..and those that you are experiencing, aren't other people. They are your experiencing.
Tell me this; where is the dividing line between the see-er and the seen ? (LOOK in experiencing)
When you have done that, consider this; Is it possible to have a see-er without the seen, or the seen without the see-er. ..and if they are both a requirement for the other to exist, can you see that it is only mind that creates the subject/object duality ?
Could it be true that there is only Seeing.
Do it with a sound. Take a chair and sit near the refrigerator and listen to the sound it produces. At first it will seem to be coming from it, but as you listen intently see if Pete and the fridge disappear and there is only sounding. Ignore thoughts and meld with the sound. What is noticed ?

i recognized that if that meat was devoured the only thing that would be gone would be that story. The story may arise again but it would still be just a story.

Well SEEn.

bowing,

bowing back, and beaming.

love, Namaste

vince

Good to say hello to 'the squiggles that are Vince' :D

It was fun to recognize and 'see' it from that perspective.

It's been more challenging to converse the last day or so. Things in 'my' head seem to be processing differently and it's hard to identify exactly what to say. It's taking me longer to respond. Also the knot in my chest has not returned. Lastly, there is a new sensation that occasionally appears in my core. It is difficult to describe but it is not unpleasant. The only words that seem to fit are space and open with a hint of timid.

Anyway, on to the questions in the thread.

Can you imagine any possibility that you would start to believe in Santa Clause again ?

i cannot fathom any scenario that eliminates impermanence. Stories change. That said, i cannot currently imagine returning to that belief.

What happened next is what is most surprising. I didn't get mad, I didn't blame, I didn't do any of the things i would or could have done in the past.

Beautiful. ...and consider was this change the result of effort or choice or a decision ?
Are emotions like thoughts in that they just arise from nowhere and fade to nowhere ? (certainly we can have stories about cause and effect - but can it be more than thoughts ?)

No choice, it just happened. Another point is i watched/saw it happen. Hard to describe but it was similar to that of a spectator. i could have stepped in the story but the view would have changed to that of participant. This way of 'seeing' has been happening more regularly over the past week or so. The sensation of being of the story rather than embedded in the story is very freeing. i don't feel so tied into the outcome. Now to finally answer the last part of the question.
Thoughts and emotions - It's difficult to speak of anything with complete certainty but there don't seem to be any thoughts, emotions, feelings, or sensations that carry any permanence. Sensations feel as if they are a more reliable pointer as they don't exist within the mind.

Tell me this; where is the dividing line between the see-er and the seen ? (LOOK in experiencing)

Squirmy sensation in the mid-belly while doing this. The experiment brings to mind the 'pointing at the moon' exercise. The see-er 'isn't' nor is the seen. They are both illusions of the mind. The seen only exist as an image in the mind. I closed my eyes after looking and can still still the chair. Where do I see the chair? The same place that 'saw' the chair. What in the hell is seeing the chair? It's not my eyes.

When you have done that, consider this; Is it possible to have a see-er without the seen, or the seen without the see-er. ..and if they are both a requirement for the other to exist, can you see that it is only mind that creates the subject/object duality ?

The first thought that arose..What does someone that cannot see 'see'? They only see what they visualize in their minds. Using the chair as an example, i can imagine they can get a 'picture' based on feeling to 'see' the object. However both live in the mind. i cannot imagine a scenario where a see-er sees without the seen. To be seen there must be a see-er. i have no words to articulate but 'looking' seems to answer my rant above...'What the hell is seeing?' Nothing. Some sort of jedi mind trick i guess :)
Based on this experience it seems that subject - object duality is completely a by-product of the mind.

Could it be true that there is only Seeing.

It could be true but it is difficult to find a way to test. Are there any exercises you could suggest? Perhaps i'm tripping over the word Seeing. If i replace the word with Being or Is-ing it resonates inside my body cleanly. Hmm, this is the first time i've 'heard' the resonance. i get the sense it has always been there but i hadn't listened before.

Do it with a sound. Take a chair and sit near the refrigerator and listen to the sound it produces. At first it will seem to be coming from it, but as you listen intently see if Pete and the fridge disappear and there is only sounding. Ignore thoughts and meld with the sound. What is noticed ?

First try, total failure. Second try. Ok, this is freaky. It worked just like the seeing but it if doesn't jive with what i 'know'. Big time mental pushback on this one. Also felt wormlike waves vertically in the centerline of my chest. Not uncomfortable or painful but felt dissonance. Trying again. Ok, confirmed. Hear-er and the heard behave the same. This exercise is harder to swallow even though i experienced it.

Goodnight,
Pete